dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

The motor will be bottoned up Thanksgiving weekend. I have the F1 head unit already and the intercooler mounted as well.

Here is what I got so far:

- 388 SBC - I know it is a strange displacment but it is due to having a 383 that is bored 0.060" over as opposed to 0.030". Had to do it due to problem in a cyclinder wall. Lets call it a 390.

- All forged internals, 9:1 compression, dual plane intake (RPM Air Gap).
- Trickflow Al. Heads. (not fancy)
- F1 Procharger head unit. 31" x 24" x 4" intercooler.
- Big Red Bypass valve.
- Cam: 236 int, 246 exh @.050
551 int, 551 exh
115 LSA
- Billet MSD Dizzy with Digital 6 plus box and boost box on top of that.
- 8.5mm wires if anyone cares
- 12 Rib pulley setup

What is still up in the air:
-Intake tubing material: I can weld mild steel only with my mig. What size should I run?
-Carb size? this is being left up more to the carb shop that will make it blow thru ready. But still nice to hear suggestions.


I am shooting for around 650-700 RWHP. This car is 100% street driven. Zero track, maybe one day I will go to see what she can do, but it is a street car. It has a T-56 and a Moser 12 bolt with 4.11s. Running 315 DR out back on 11" rims. 6 point cage. All tubular suspension. Not sure any of this matters, but what you guys to know what I am shooting for. Bad *** street car that is really fun on backroads and stuff. It has a Cervini 3" cowl.

What do you think it will make? What kind of manners will it have? It also has a mufflex 4" cat back with long tube 2210 headers.

Eric89sc

iTrader: (1)

What size pulley are u using? What kind of boost are u shooting for?

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

I have one pulley that I got with the kit. Not sure what size it is actually and the car is in another town so I can't check. I don't really know what boost number I am going for. I sights are set on HP numbers. I want to stay just shy of what the acceptable limit is for a stock block with forged internals. Seems to be around the 700 - 750 HP mark. Thats at the fly. So I am going to plan for that amount of power. I know the F1 can make it up there. It will just about never actually see that power since i will rarly push it past 4500 but I want to make sure it has the potential.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Hmmm, your trying to build a +700hp car but don't want to push it past 4500rpm, I wonder how long that's going to last

Do 3" tubing since I'am sure your blower and intercooler are setup for that.

Should be one bitching street car, good luck with the build!

obeymybird

iTrader: (4)

that beast will never hook up not even close

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

LOL. I know she won't. Thats a problem I enjoy having. Engine trouble or setups not being dialed in is not. Just wondering if anyone had some insight on my questions. I will deal with rear gear, grip, tires, and all that when pring comes around.

The intercooler is mounted, the engine will be done real soon. I am thinking 3" pipe for the intake, but wondering how bad of an idea it is to run aluminised steel tubing for the intake track? It is the only thing I can weld myself, but it is not light. Ideally I want to run aluminum pipes, but I can't weld that...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I run all exhaust piping on my car. NO problems except it can hold in heat compared to aluminum and its abit heavier. I have 3" going into my car and its up over 800hp at flywheel based on weight and trap speeds.

3 to 3.5" would be good to do. Carb size? 650-750 cfm I would guess but dont know too much on blow thru carb sizing. I would guess size it like n/a motor and have it setup to handle boost. Thats how you typically do EFI stuff. I run a baby 75-78mm LS1 throttle body on my car while most n/a builds would use 85-90mm setups.

My personal opinion would be to go with a single plane intake manifold as I dont know how well a dual plane will distribute air fuel in a blow thru. The cam is pretty big and would suite a single plane well. With T56 and 4.11 gears, low end shouldnt be a problem.
Dual plane should make driveability much better with more low end torque and maybe even better idle quality, but alot of that depends on how well the carb is tuned.

Should easily do your hp numbers tho. I think your overkill on components for thats 600whp numbers. Thats a good thing...leaves room for growth. 10-12psi should do those numbers fairly easily.

UR50SLO

iTrader: (1)

If this is going to be 100% street and 0% track why O why would you put a carb on it?

Driveability is going to be awful. If you had the %'s in the other way I'd say what the hell

go for it. WOT is all that matters in a track car.

I was going to do a blow through carb on a customers car that is coming in and after all

the threads I've read not one said.."I've got good driveability" all were rich here lean

there.. stumbles.. hesitates.. fouls plugs ect. Do yourself a favor and Inject it.

The more power you make the less rear gear you'll need. at 600hp even you won't need

any more than a 3:42 gear. I'm running a 3:25 and it's not hurt my 60' times.

I run all mild steel tube for IC pipes.. Love it. I'd have it over allum. anyday.

Not being critical.. just trying to be helpfull.
~Scott

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the advice. Right now I am running a carb for two reasons.
1- Old school bad *** car is what I am going for. I know it is will be a bit of a pain, but that is the "motif" if you know what I mean.
2- More important than reason 1. I don't have the $ for F.I. anyways right now. It is 100% street, but at the same time I am only driving it around for fun and to shows. The look, sound and feel of a carb is so simple compared to FI.

I may go FI someday, but not now. Once I am done pulling my hair out over the carb then I will convince the gf, soon to be wife that the FI is the way to go. Funny thing is I was considering it FI with this and SHE was the one that said she loves the way the carb sounds, looks and so on. So we will see. Rear gear change will happen later on, too much else going on right now.


I will go with mild steel tubing. Thanks for that. I think I will keep it 3" so that the blower has to fill in less tube to get the pressure to the motor. I will post pics soon.

Thanks.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

whats the blower outlet size? i would match that if possible.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

The outlet is 3". I will run 3" mild steel piping. I know it is not fancy like aluminum, but it will get the job done and for a fraction of the cost. Anybody know where I can get a bypass valve mounting flange for my big red procharger valve? I assume procharger can sell me one. I have about 4 weeks till I pick up the motor. I am searching for a carb hat right now. Not sure what to go with. I was thinking about waiting till I have the motor to see what my clearance would be. I know you want the air to be as laminar as possible going thru the carb so I was thinking of running a procharger or extreme velocity hat with a spacer if I could. I only hae a 3" cowl so I may need to run no spacer, but we will see. I sorta think I won't buy anything till I acctually have the motor back in the car.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

What kind of flange is it? Vband or an actual flange like a Tial 38mm wastegate flange?

Batass

I'm going to second the EFI for a street car. Forced induction compounds the air/fuel inconsistincies with weather. Some days it will break up, some days it will run leaner than you want. It's really nice to be able to just hop in your car and go thrash and not worry about changing jets. Boggy/bucky low end sucks in a street car. If you are very picky about your car, I highly doubt you'll be happy. 1000 bucks for a pro carb, why not just spend a thousand more and get a stealth ram and a nice ecm.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I am not sure about the number 1 reason. Didn't that year camaro come with EFI so old school carb would be for an older car? With your intended driving I think a carb would fit well. It just takes some tinkering now and then to get it to run right.

If I were her, knew the price of EFI, and an up coming wedding, then I would say that carb is the most beautiful thing ever. Paying out $ for EFI means less $ for the wedding and carb FTW.

I would keep the pipe the same size as the SC inlet and outlet. I would go with coated mild steel if possible.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I just read the engine description and it said GM 350ci with .060" bore and 700 RWHP. How thick are the walls on this block? Most blocks get too thin for that HP. Is it getting a 1/4 fill or more?

No doubt EFI is better in terms of starting, drivability, fuel mileage but could cost more. I think my complete EFI swap (intake, 42#/hr, fuel lines, pump, ecm, harness, everything) that can only handle up to 550 bhp was $800. I think for around $1200 it could be extended to 700 RWHP.

It comes down to how much time you want to spend tinkering vs how much money you want to spend up front. Most of the carb guys I know become experts because they spend more time messing with the carb than driving the car because it never seems to run "just right". The others just say that is how carbs run and live with it. Either way, for 700 RWHP you are buying one expensive fuel pump. With EFI you could go with two cheap Walbros and save right there. Not to mention the smaller and cheaper fuel line. I would price out everything before you decide on going strictly carb. You may be surprised. If you only want 400-500 RWHP that would be a different story.

Are you doing your own carb or sending it out?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Stock 730 ecm with chip adapter and factory memcal for 305 TPI or 350TPI car if lucky.... 100-200 bucks
SD L98 TPI wiring harness 100-400 bucks depending whose and where
victor EFI, 411 plus 150 for intake elbow. LS1 TB for 50.
Misc TPI sensors... find used if you can for fairly cheap. IAC/TPS for LS TB is harder to find. (Or go stock TPI TB and sensors with HSR stealth ram)
360 for injectors
My entire dual walbro fuel system from Lonnies Performance with lines to rails, filter and regulator was around 1700-1800 bucks. May be done for cheaper if you do the home made dual pump mod and run thru stock hardlines if they are still on the car. I used braided teflon style hose. Well worth the cost.

EFI can be abit more money but the management system is least expensive with using code $59.

For these TPI cars, already being EFI helps alot. Going from carbed to EFI is alittle harder

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't spend the extra money on a 305 or 350 MEMCALed ECM. I would get the 749 ECM because it gives you fuel injector options and you don't need the TCC output. The engine bore is off enough that the knock is kind of out of range anyway. I would just pick up a V6 MEMCALed ECM for $50 and do the jumper wire on the MEMCAL to do v8 injector firing (every 4th DRP).
Any V6 or V8 wiring harness for a 730 would do, just grab some more injector connectors if V6 and add them in. Not more than $100 for a used harness like that.

I second the victor EFI and elbow. Could even make his own steel elbow to save the $150. I second the LS1 out of the yard with sensors on it.
Might as go with large P&H injectors that are usually on ebay cheaper than large saturated injectors. Yeah, around $300 for them.

In terms of fuel I would run two walbros each with their own 3/8" steel feed to an individual rail and add another FPR with a 5/16" return. Or you could parallel it.
Either way, $60 for 2 rolls of fuel line, $100 per pump (550 HP each), Mallory FPR $60.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Wow... a lot of replys. Ok I will touch base on everything that people asked starting at the top.

Orr89RocZ: The flange is like the tial, it is not a v-band. I found other people online saying that you can buy the flange from Procharger for like $12.

Batass: I know it will be finicky, but you really don't know how my car was before. I really don't mind some tuning here and there. I only drive the car when it is nice out. As for the carb, you are off on that grand. I will be paying $400 for a 100% pre-tunned carb setup that I don't have to touch and is guaranteed to work right out of the box on my setup. Multiple companies sell this service. As for going with a stealth ram and an ecm, that will definetly not just add a grand if you are pretending that will be all I need to get the car to be "all set" and running for F.I.

junkcltr: Yes, my car came with TPI. That was a LONG time ago when I was in HS. Since then I tore the entire car appart and pretty much threw everything that was stock with it away. Since then I have learned that was not too good of an idea, but not much I can do now a decade later. It is carbed now and that is the look and attitude I like. I find that I relate more with the old school carb guys than with the F.I. croud. I agree with your point the price difference and having more cash left over. No one is trying to hide that OR not know that is obvious. haha.

junkcltr: No this motor is not getting a fill, maybe it should but this time around the shop nor I felt it necessary. That is a risk I am running, I know that. Hope the fact that I am going to be on the street and not in major boost most of the time it will be ok. As for your setup being only a few hundred and you thinking I can run FI from scratch for $1200 that can handle boost, show me a kit and I may consider it. As for a fuel pump, as opposite to popular blief, you don't need a crazy fuel pump when running a carb with forced induction. I also already have a volumax holley pump that moves 125 GPH. Should be fine. All lines are 8-AN with 8-AN return. I am sending it out, still deciding who to go with buy many places have write ups from super chevy and so on showing that you can bolt on the carb right away and you are set to go. I can find a link if you want.

Orr89RocZ: Everything you said about F.I. I didn't follow. I am not am F.I. guy. My car IS, I repeat IS a carbed car now. It may have been F.I. one day but it isn't now. So it is going to be hard to swap to F.I for me, I would be starting from scratch pretty much. I don't know what most of those sensors are and I really don't have even the slightest idea what a cod 59 is... When I start reading that stuff it makes me love the carb even more... I know F.I. guys that complain just as much as carb guys... Difficult setups are difficult. Weather it be searching for a bad ground/injector, or dealing with some jets here and there. Trick is to know good recources for help and pay for the right parts. ( Pretunned carbs from reputable shops)

junkcltr: This shows that you know a TON about F.I. You sound like you are at a 9 out of 10, I am at more of a 1 or 2 out of 10. 99% of what you are talking about for ECMs codes and so on sounds confusing as all hell. Just after reading what you wrote makes me know I need to stay carbed right now. After a house a this motor blows I will be picking up an LSX block and then I will run new style F.I. setup that is easy to use and can handle boost like the FAST setups I have seen people running. But that is far off.


Ok, think thats all. Thanks for the insight and opinions. I know that I am going to be running some risk with the setup I am running, but who doesn't with any wild setup. I will be posting progress and dyno days here then the time comes.

noboostnogo

iTrader: (4)

i would just go with a single plane intake maybe a victor sr. No need to get 2 msd boxes either get something like a 6al-2 digital programmable or go with a digital 7 which will both give you a boost timing curve, launch/rev/burnout limiters and start retard and much more.

Also if it is only a street car you dont need a 6 point roll bar, just get subframe connectors and call it done. roll bars are a pain to get in and out unless you get swing out but you dont need it unless you plan on racing.
I got Kevin at csu carbs to modify my 750 double pumper, he did a great job and very cool guy. Dont forget to upgrade the rest of the fuel system not just the carb. Get a good carb hat like extreme velocity, fuel referenced fuel regulator, better flowing fuel lines, and a wideband

Have you thought about replacing gears with something lower? @ 700whp and 4.11s it wont be fun anymore...

edit:
i see you already have the 6 point roll bar installed so nvm.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

dennisbernal91z,
The thing about EFI is that it ends up taking a life of its own when you use OEM GM stuff modified for high HP. It really is just like a modded boost carb in a way. It takes years to figure it out but once you get there.........you are there. It is a hobby that never ends.

As you said, going with a pre-built carb will put you in a place where you won't have to mess with it much. They have done the years of tinkering to figure out what works. Much like the years of messing with EFI that I have done........and I still am only really a 5 or 6 out of 10. It never ends.

One thing I will mention about carb fuel pumps is that they tend to rate them for GPH at 0 PSI or free flowing. You will be running 6 PSI or better + your boost_PSI at the pump output. If you run 20 PSI of boost you need at least 26 or more PSI from the pump. Please check with the manufacturer that it can support you needed GPH at that pressure. This is something people forget when running boost.
You need the high pressure because the incoming air pressure (boost) is trying to push the fuel back into the tank so you need that pressure plus the base fuel pressure from the pump.
This is what makes a bigger pump than an NA engine required and more expensive.

EDIT: As for the intake, I am always in a bind for street carb setups and boost. Dual plane is the way to go for the street hands down, but single plane is the way to go for boost and high HP for fuel distribution. If it were mine with that cam I would run the dual plane for the streetability, but run it rich at high HP to make up for bad fuel distribution. You lose a little top end HP but have a safe AFR on the lean hole and it drives much better out of boost. You will see a lot more idle and low rpm time so I would rather have it run better there than worry about 50hp at the top end.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

noboostnogo: I already have the MSD digital 6 plus and boost box on top of that. Definitely not planning on selling those and trying to buy other boxes. This build is trying to be done with preserving as much as I can of what I already had to save $. Also on a street car and 7 box would be super dupper overkill I don't need all those functions. I talk at length with MSD tech about it over the phone. I have all the things you just listed, wideband, 8-AN lines thoughout, big electric fuel pump, and boost reference reg. I guess I just didn't include that in any previouse post. My mistake. Yes, gear changes my happen in the future, but for now I am only thinking motor, motor, motor. Thats all my wallet will let me think about.

junkcltr: Thanks for the heads up. I have run the calculations for that already. I do know how they rate them and that it is not the bext for what I am looking to do. I need to run the numbers on my own. I acctualy don't even trust the numbers that they say. I will be running the fuel system thru its paces into a barrel before I ever fire the motor up to make sure it is up to snuff. If I have to swap it to an aeromotive A1000 or something like that I will, but for now my numbers look OK. As for your last sentence you are EXACTLY!!!! on the money with what I am going for. Good drivability and nice top end, I am not going for every last HP at the top. A concept that is hard to comunicate sometimes.

pendragon618

May I be the first to say - PICS!!!!

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

I have already started docmenting the build on my CarDomain website. Just jump to the last page if you want to see the latest stuff.

dennisbernal91z

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Well nothing fancy, but here is the first pic of the motor all buttoned up when I picking it up at the shop 2 days ago. Can't wait to start bolting stuff to it so I can get that F1 on it.