SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Ok, I'm going to be ready to get my suspension stuff in a little bit. I basically want to cover all aspects of steering and suspension. I already have a Wonderbar from TDS, so I won't mention that. I have a LS1 Aluminum driveshaft as well. I have a 9 bolt w/ 3.27's in it. So, when I get around to putting everything in, I'm going to just do the works. Here's what I have, how's it sound? Oh yeah, keep in mind, this is going to be a full blown street car, with rare trips to the track.

All upgrades from Spohn:
- Koni Special "Reds" Shocks & Struts Package
- Moog OEM Replacement Spring Set
- Front End Rebuild Kit: 1982-1992 F-Body
- Adjustable Torque Arm - 700R4/T-5 Trans. (This will replace my Trans x-member, right? It looks like it has one welded in. Front Mount Type: Polyurethane Bushing)
- Panhard Bar - Adjustable with Poly Bushings
- Lower Control Arms - Adj. with Poly Bushings
- Lower Control Arm Relocation Brackets
- Spohn Sway Bars Set - Solid 4140 Chrome Moly

All material types being 4130 Chrome Moly

Now, did I pretty much cover everything? Do I need any other Polyurethane bushings, etc? Do all the kits cover it? Am I overkill w/ anything?

How's the list sound?

Thanks for the help guys! I really appreciate it!!

DJP87Z28

You forgot two important upgrades:
1) STB -Strut Tower Brace
2) SFC's- Sub Frame Connectors
It happens when you try making a list, think about them.

Jukka

Polyurethane bushings for front lca's and swaybars + polyurethane swaybar endlinks.

cgb

Man, you guys can HAVE those poly suspension bushings...

Are you road-racing it? Autocross?

If it's TRULY a "street" car, in MY OPINION, the poly bushings are way to harsh on a street car in the front control arms. I've used both poly and the del-a-lum, and the del-a-lum win hands down. Since they are a bit more expensive, if it came down to a choice between rubber bushings and poly, I'd definitely go with rubber.

I won't get into a full-blown suspension dynamics debate, but do your research, and you'll find that the poly just stiffens things up more than anything.

IF it were ME, and that's a big if..

I'd rebuild the front suspension with Moog hard parts. ( I do like the aftermarket tie-rod sleeves, just cause they make it EASY to align the front end ). Greaseable poly bushings on the swaybars, poly on the endlinks. New balljoints. Del-a-lum or rubber bushings in the control arms. New springs, Moog work great as well. Don't forget new spring isolators in the rear.

SFC's, and a strut tower brace as well.

Poly tranny mount, boxed or tubular LCA's. LCA relocation brackets, and a beefed stock, or aftermarket torque arm, and panhard bar.


IF you're TRULY serious about hooking at the track, ditch the torque arm completely, and use LCA relocation brackets and weld mounts for the LCA's to hook directly to the rear axle.. ( not the easiest mod, but not the hardest either )...


You asked, I answered, again just my opinion.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

cgb, thanks for the info. As for the del-a-lum, I have never heard of those. Is that just a stock rubber bushing? I'm only saying Poly for everything b/c that's what I'm hearing is good. I've never been in a car w/ it, so I couldn't tell you my personal experience w/ 'em. I hear many YAY'S Vs. NAY'S about it. It's basically strictly a street car, so you guys tell ME. I want it to hook very well, yet, take advantage of all the other suspension parts. I heard rubber w/ flex a lot, and make all the other parts not work as well as they should.

Please give me a break down on this. Also, w/ that Torque Arm, that includes the Trans x-member, doesn't it? Koni Reds good for the street?

Thanks again!

Dewey316

poly for all out racing ??? it had a nasty tendancy to bind in the rear suspension.

poly is a descent pick for the street in my book. sherical bearings if you race. heck some of us really like bearings, even on the street

i do second you on the del-a-lum front a-arm bushings, if you have the money in your budget, they are bar-none the best choice out there.

finaly, are you suggesting some sort of ladder bar conversion for the rear suspension? you would have ot have some sort of mount dual mount to the rear axle to keep it from turning over on itself. in all actuality the TA suspension, is not all that bad, but if you are seriously into drag racing, then you might consider a conversion. but by the time you are ready to take that dive, you are probably already looking at fabbing up a 9" or 12bolt. that makes converting that sort of suspension easier, since you already have to fab up brackets, spring pearches, ect.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

So, polyurethane or not poly? Adjustable Spherical/Poly combo or all poly Control Arms? What's good for the street? Where do you get del-a-lum bushings? What's the price difference?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

if your leaving the car strickly for the road, no need for poly or del-lums. Stock rubber replacement will be fine.

If you like taking the car to the edges, then del-lums (about twice poly, or 3x rubber cost) are great.

The spherical ends tend to not be advised for street use due to noise, harshness, and tend to wear faster.

Dewey316

ok, the poly/rubber/spherical debate can get a bit heated. there are pros and cons to each. the biggest con to poly, is that it binds. some people like it, the added roll stiffness can sometimes give people the handling feel they want. but typicaly bind is something that is to be avoided. now, in a straight line, bind isn't so much of an issue.

the del-a-lums are available from Global-West.

http://www.globalwest.net/camaro93.h...arm%20bushings

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Del-A-Lum is only for the front A-Arm bushings? The rest would be Poly? So, would it still be wise to get the Front end rebuild kit from Spohn then also get the Del-A-Lums for the A-Arms? I don't want to spend tons on this stuff, but I do want good street performance. The way my suspension is now, it feels real spongy...lots of body roll...wheel hop A LOT. The list I put up top, would that make an extremly harsh STIFF ride, or a good performance street ride...handles not too bad on bumps, road imperfections, etc.? I'm pretty much looking for an overall good performance suspension. Good traction, good response, etc.

What should I ultimately change/remove/add to my initial list?

Dewey316

del-a-lum may be overkill for you, a good set of poly for the front should be fine.

i myself am a big fan of the poly/spherical combo LCA's for the rear, you can elimate alot of the noise by having the 1 poly bushing and the bearing will keep the LCA in bindfree operation.

for the bodyroll, a set of sport springs will greatly aid that, along with a set of good shocks/struts. i would suggest poly sway bar bushings, and a rebuilt front end will tighten up the steering quite a bit.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Dewey, thanks for the info. When everyone talks about Poly's being so noisy, how noisy are we actually talking? I mean, very audible in the interior? Easily muted w/ some music? Lots of outside noise that everyone else hears but me? I mean, I wouldn't imagine them being SO noisy, but I don't have experience w/ 'em.

Dewey316

there is a little more road noise transfered, but road noise has never bothered me. its hard to explain the diffrence.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Dewey, so it's safe to say that all Poly bushings would be just fine? (since it seems it's only a little more added road noise compared to oem). So, my list, would it be sufficient enough? Doesn't the Front rebuild kit have the a-arm bushings? I need those, including the front sway bar bushings too, correct? Anything else?

Dewey316

i dont' know what all is included.

if you do the poly poly route, i would suggest non adjustable LCAs if you go poly.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

What's wrong w/ the adjustable Poly, or Spherical/Poly Adjustable? Wouldn't the Torque arm and Lower Control arms both be better to have Adjustable, for fine tuning? What's wrong w/ the adjustable poly/poly?

Kontrax

why not just get the poly/rubber combo? i couldnt make up my mind when i was buying suspension parts so i just got the poly/rubber combo. what company did you get your parts from? i wouldnt touch globalwest stuff.....looks cheap to me. theres gotta be something wrong if they sell their subs for 80 bucks outta jegs...but hey thats just me.

one question, why did you get relocation brackets if your not dropping your car? i thought they were for lowered cars to maintain the lost angle. and i agree with the person who said you missed subs...thats the 1st thing you should get.

Justins86bird

I would go with poly/rod ends on both the panhard and LCAs. Just don't get poly/poly.

www.thunderracing.com sells del-a-lums too. That's where I got mine.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Thanks again for the help. I compiled a new list, w/ the additions of all the things I've been told. Does this sound more complete, and great for a street car?

-Spohn Sub-Frame Connectors
- Koni Special "Reds" Shocks & Struts Package
- Moog OEM Replacement Spring Set
- Front End Rebuild Kit: 1982-1992 F-Body
- Adjustable Torque Arm - 700R4/T-5 Trans. (Front Mount Type: Polyurethane Bushing)
- Panhard Bar - Adjustable Spherical/Poly Combo
- Lower Control Arms - Adj. Spherical/Poly Combo
- Lower Control Arm Relocation Brackets
- Spohn Sway Bars Set - Solid 4140 Chrome Moly

Am I repeating anything in the list? Like, does the front end rebuild kit come w/ Sway bar stuff or endlinks that I'm getting from the Sway Bar Kit? Also, Dale mentioned that Spherical wears faster. So, all I keep getting is conflicting recommendations. I don't have experience w/ the diff. materials, so you have to tell me what's best.

Kontrax

the rebuild kit comes with the front springs and new tierod sleeves so you dont have to get a complete set of springs, just the rears. i suggest getting springs from a 02 fbody. i ordered a set of rears from GM for an 02 ws6. the fronts will not fit since they are made for coilovers. and yes, the rears fit right in no problem


wait, wait i screwed up. the kit doesnt come with the front springs. id still invest in the 02 rears though....

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

What's better about the 02 springs than Moog replacements? I still want to know the deal w/ spherical vs. poly...as far as wearing faster, etc...Price isn't an issue, since they are both basically the same. So, who should I believe? lol

Dewey316

they do wear faster. poly practictly doesn't wear. but like i have said for all out performance, poly has a major downfall in that it binds. i know people who have had poly/sherical combo arms on their daily drivers for 2-3 years now, and the bearings are still in good shape. on the other hand, i have seen people go thorugh them in 2k miles. alot of that depends on the quality of hte bearing being used. if you stick with a good bearing like QA1 or Arrura you should be fine for some time.

on the rebuild... check out this post, you can get all moog or BETTER from napa....

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...&highlight=MRC

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...&highlight=MRC

Kontrax

moog makes great stuff dont get me wrong, but the 02 ws6 springs are a better spring. they will handle and ride much nicer. i think they pop your rear up an inch or so too. i cant tell though because i have my rear lifted anyways. as for bushings, the poly will be much tighter for turns and such while the rubber will have less road noise then the poly. you always sacrifice something to gain something. thats why i went with the poly/rubber combo. gain a little handling but dont gain all the road noise

Dewey316

by assuming poly handles better, is crutching the real issue, the poly binding gives the feeling more roll stiffness, using properly matched springs, and properly matched sway bars will give you the same added roll stiffness without the bind.

also what makes you think the 02 springs are so much better than the moog? the 02 springs are matched to work with a lower rate front spring on the 4th gens. IMHO if you are really going for handling, you should be runner quite a bit higher rate spring than any of hte stock replacement springs, and then matching the front rates with that. you would then pick sway bars that will give you desired charectoristics you want. less rear bar for more understeer, and more bite out of the corner, more rear bar/less front bar for more oversteer.

Kontrax

i feel the spring is better then the moog because it was designed for the GM high performance models. yes its true you need to match other parts to get the full effect, but i believe it will be a better spring just because its a newer design. its a bit taller and wider then the 3rd gen springs. you can see a big difference when placed next to a stock spring. i also like how they come plasticoated to keep the rust out. as for the poly bushing, i was just reading off of the BMR site. thats what persuaded me to go with the ploy/rubber combo. to each his own though



you know, if you have like a system with subs in the back or you put people in the back seat, the 02 springs will be better for that since they are made to handle more weight. no more sagging rears

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Interesting information. I like my ride height, but assuming my suspension is sagging (13+ year old springs/shocks/struts) if I go back to stock springs, and higher performance dampers, won't that bring it back up? I'm not sure how mine is now, but I might be better off w/ an Eibach Sport kit. Isn't it true though, w/ those, that you lose almost all damper b/c those springs are so much stiffer to maintain the given drop? I heard the shock/strut won't travel as much b/c of it, and in turn, give you a hard as hell ride. I could be wrong though. Just going off what I heard. Can anyone clarify this?

Kontrax

i have never heard of a harder ride from a higher spring. but i can tell you with a drop spring you will get a MUCH harder ride and put more stress on your suspension. i still cannot figure out why anyone who just uses the car on the street would want a drop on a 3rd gen

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

On the MOOG replacement springs or the regular factory ones, let's say...what is the fender gap clearance? I have to measure mine to see where it's at now. What I have is the height I want to keep. I don't want to change all this suspension stuff, then have a huge fender gap. Some guys cars on here have really BIG gaps, and I can't figure out why. Unless I'm basing my height on sagging equipment. If that's the case, I need something NEW that would maintain that height. Seems as though I'd have to get lowering springs, but the hard ride that I've heard is associated w/ 'em is what I don't want.

86iroctpi

I have PST poly-graphite bushings on mine. Some people on here don't like the PST parts, but I am satisfied with mine. If you get the front end rebuild kit from them, you get new ball joints, tie-rods, sway bar links and mounts, bump stops, and bushings. The ball joints are greasable. The ride is probably not as good as rubber, but probably less harsh than poly-eurathane.

PST

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

hmmm...interesting. I've heard that the PST rebuild kit was crappy, but now I'm second guessing.

86iroctpi: If poly-eurathane is harsh, but better than rubber for performance, then the PST kit much be even better! Anyone care to elaborate on that? Sounds like the kit basically gives you everything for the front. So, that'd mean I really wouldn't need the Sway Bar kit from Spohn, just the actual swaybar, if even THAT. Any advantages/disadvantages from the PST parts?

Thanks!

Dewey316

IIRC the PST kit doesn't come with 36/24 sway bar bushings, so you will need to hone out the bushings to fit large sway bars.

i have not heard great things about PST, i have one good friend who put their kit on, and was not pleased at all with them.

86iroctpi

Actually when you order the PST kit they ask you what size sway bar you have. I have an IROC and they fit fine. I replaced stock suspension parts with over 175,000 miles on them, so anything was a great improvement. My car is also not my daily driver and I don't auto-x, drag, or roadrace either(yet). I don't have much to compare the PST stuff to. I also haven't really pushed the car in the twisties. I'm sure there is better stuff out there, but I am satisfied with what I have for now.

Dewey316

IROCs got 34mm/23mm sway bars (most of the time) the WS6/1LE and aftermarket bars such as the original poster mentioned will not work with the bushing sizes that PST offers, i was just pointing that fact out, and the fact that my very good friend, who is an ASE Mechanic was very disapointed with their product.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

So, I'm better off getting the kit from Spohn...basically sticking w/ all Polyurethane parts and be done w/ it...??

Dewey316

if you read my post, you will notice that you can get ALL moog parts from you local parts stores, for LESS money that spohn. that was the reason that i posted those links. i layed out EVERY part number in getting at least a moog/energy suspension rebuild, i also listed parts that are much higher quality, the napa chassis ball joints, and idler arm are much nicer than the moog equivalent.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Oh, yes, Dewey...I read that post. That seems like a good idea. Less time wasted on ordering, etc. So, all front end parts from Napa...all rearend from Spohn? Torque Arm, LCA's, LCA Relocate Brackets, Shock/Strut (Koni Reds), still not sure on the springs. For the LCA's, Poly/Poly Adjustable from Spohn? I know Poly binds, but spherical rod ends wear, and stock is spongy...it's like they all suck...lol
For a cruiser/etc. I'm thinking the poly/poly would be fine. Would I notice this "bind" compared to stock bushings? If I can't feel it, etc...I don't see a need to worry about it. Anything has to be BETTER than the stock parts I have now.

Justins86bird

Not really. Just because you can't feel it doesn't mean its not there. If you don't want rod combo, get the 1LE LCAs. They are a firmer rubber bushing then stock and will bind less then poly/poly tubulars.

Dewey316

i don't do this often, but i am going to link another site for this...

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1...hings.htm#axle

i dont' want to start a fight about this, but poly/poly is not the answer for most people. like i said, if you are considering going around corners, it is probably not the best choice, i would STILL suggest a poly/rod combo arm for people who do street driving, but do want to upgrade. there is really no point in upgrading the LCA's if you don't go to at least 1 rod end. if you go poly/poly what are you really gaining?

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Dewey, that site was very informative.

From what they are saying, 1LE is the best. The thing is, I'd be getting the LCA's, etc. but they already come w/ SOME type of bushing. So, it's like I'm spending double. What would Poly/Rod do differently then Poly/Poly? It said Rod ends are for serious racers. Plus, they wear fast, correct? Geez, this decision is getting tough....

Dewey316

define fast?

having 1 rod end eleviates the twisting forces on the actualy bar/tube since there is a point at the end that can freely rotate. that means, at the point where the poly bushing is not twisting, instead of that force going into twisting the tube, the one bearing rotates instead.

to put this in refernce, i have a couple of friends runnign the poly/spherical combo bars, one has had them on for 2 years now, with no issues, not real wear. and he does daily drive this car. on the other had, i actualy broke a poly/poly spohn bar after 4 years of duty. (yes it was one of spohns first arms and his design is diffrent, but the point is, it did break, because the forces are going to the arm itself)

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

So, rod/rod is bad, but poly/rod would be good? How about Global West Del-A-Lum all around? It's pricey, but how does it compare to the latter? Their lca's are like $300 somethin'. Not to mention what all their other del-a-lum bushing/parts would cost.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

I just found out Double Spherical Rod ended lca's are the best for F-Bodies...yet again changes my decision...lol

Dewey316

i dont' think del-a-lums would be a good choice for the rear, in the front, they are bar-none the best option, but their design doesn't make sense for the rears, i wan't aware they even sold them for aplications other than the front control arms.

rod/rod is what i am running (well, as soon as they are finished, i am having a chomoloy set custom made for me) but i like a rough ride, and like to hear what the car is doing. i really think that you will be happy with the combo bars, their performance is much better than a rubber or poly setup, and i don't think the noise will bother you, inface my poly/poly bars had a large increase in noise over stock. the poly/rod combo's i have driven dont' seem any louder than my old ones did.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

I see, so the only downfall from rod/rod is the harsh ride? How "jumpy" is it? I was thinking of Rod ends for the Panhard/Torque Arm/LCA's. Would that be so stiff, you'd "feel" every little thing? I want "somewhat" of a smooth ride, but I was thinking I'd get that from the springs/shocks...somewhat at least. I had the MOOG springs and the Koni Reds picked out for that...any assumption how all those parts would affect the ride quality?

Also, for the front, do they make del-a-lum for everything, or just the a-arms? I'd probably get del-a-lum for the a-arms, then the rest at Napa if all else fails.

Dewey316

del-a-lum is just the front a-arms.

roughness is fromt he spring/shock combo, with nice high quality ends, you rides hould be fine, if not better, since all the movement is controlled, and picked up by the parts in the suspension, not the bushings. it will be noisier than stock, there is no question about that, and bearings do wear. high quality, teflon lined bearings will last quite a bit longer than cheap generic ones do.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

So, once the bearings wear, you need new arms and bars, etc. right? What if you keep them greased?

How noisy will it be? Very squeaky inside? Outside? What can I compare it to, to have an idea of the sound generated? I don't want it to sound like a squeaky tin can riding down the street.

With the Moog springs and Koni Special Reds, would that give a nice, smooth..yet, affective/aggressive ride?

Dewey316

ok, no you do not need new arm, with sherical bearings, you just replafe the bearing. cost you between probably $30-$100 to replace all 4 bearings, that depends on where you get them and what kind you get.

the noise will not be a squeek, you are talking metal/metal contact that causes the noise. it will be more like alot of road noise being transmited. it is hard to explain.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

hmm...so it's more like a "grinding" noise?

Would the Torque Arm and Panhard Bar Spherical bearings wear just as well/fast as the lca's?

Dewey316

no, not a grinding noise, you will get noise when you hit a bump in the road. like the sound of an impact.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Alright. I compiled a new list of parts. Here is the stuff for the most part:

Spohn:
Koni Special "Reds" Shocks & Struts Package
Billet Spherical Upper Strut Mounts
Spohn Sway Bars Set - Solid 4140 Chrome Moly
Adjustable Torque Arm - 700R4/T-5 Trans.
Panhard Bar - Adjustable Spherical Rod Ended

Global West:
Del-A-Lum A-Arm Bushings: # 1022

Napa:
2 Tie-Rod Inner: #NCP2692612
2 Tie-Rod Outer: #NCP2692613
2 Tie-Rod Sleeves: ??
Centerlink: MRC-DS1049


How's that sound?