reborn92rs

I got the car aligned after doing the front coilover kit, billet strut towers, and steering rebuild kit. On the way home I drove accross this anoying one lane bridge that if you hit wrong bottoms out any car. However I took the right line, yet a horrible metal on metal clang came from the front right of the car. (The kind of noise that makes your face cringe)

I took my time with the car, spent 2 weekends torqing everything, then comming back and checking my work twice. Im paranoid Im gonna forget something one day and kill myself. So I know nothings loose. Which makes me thing the car isnt sitting high enough and the right strut bottomed out.

Measured from the lowest point on the front clip directly infront of the right tire I have 7.5 inches clearance. Is this close to stock? Spohn said no more than 1" lower so I dont know if I am still under that. Right now the front of the car is sitting higher than the rear which I assumed was already 1-2" lower due to 200k old springs. Can anyone tell me if I need to try higher or look elsewhere for the problem?

Thanks!

RTFC

You most likely have too soft of springs on there and grounded out the a-arm onto the subframe. I would strongly recommend at *minumum* a 325 lb spring rate on a V8, especially on that is lowered

MrDude_1

if thats the kind of bump that you should be able to hit witout bottoming out,

and you are bottoming out on the spring, then your springs are way too soft.


athough, it could be your bumpstop or some other part hitting.....

reborn92rs

I forgot to mention theres new a-arms on there, knew I forgot something. So... there arent any bump stops. :/ The guy I talked with asked me what I wanted to do with the car and I told him Im gonna drive kinda stupid occasionally when no-ones looking and its my daily driver. Hence he said 300# is all I need. Is there anyway to check if Im getting spring bind?

MrDude_1

on my dirtbikes, when i wanted to see how far i compressed the forks, i would put a ziptie on the fork tube.
as the fork slid up, the ziptie slid up, but always stopped at the highest point.

ive never tried this on a thirdgen, but if you can get to it, it should work... put one on the front strut, and see how much travel you use...


then push the wheel up that far and see what hits (a arm on crossmember, or whatever) if nothing hits, measure what the springs should be fully compressed.....

BMmonteSS

I wouldn't dream of driving a car without bump stops, it just leaves your self open for metal on metal contact, whether it be the springs stacking or more likely the A-arm smacking the subframe. I would get under the car as soon as possible and see if there is some paint rubed off some where. You could have bent the a-arm if it was intereference there. You don't want your a-arm snapping off, get some bump stops.

BMmonteSS

Also, 300 ppin on the strut is about the same as a 600 pound spring in the stock location. So their about as stiff as a stock IROC.

KagA152

iTrader: (5)

i just ordered mine on wednesday with 325 per steves recommendation. i need to figure out a bump stop with my pro fab a arms some how

Kat

iTrader: (4)

Steve is working out a soloution now. Just waiting on getting one to try out and then have them made.

Kat

RTFC

Close but not entirely correct.

The coventional spring center is at 42% of the A-arm length. The coilover is at 100%. The leverage on the 42% spring at 600lbs would equal 252lbs on a coilover.

A 325 lb coilover rate will equal aprox 775lb convetional spring. I run an 800+ lb frontspring on my lowered lightweight V6 so I do not ground out. On a heavier V8 I would personally go to about a 375-400 rate for more of an hard street/autox/roadrace use. 325 would be my minumum recommendation on a lowered V8 car.

KagA152

iTrader: (5)

hmmm, i might have to reconsider the spring rate them. i told them i was looking to solo I. he said go 200 in the rear. i have a glass hood, aluminum heads, smog and a/c delete, tubular k member/a arms for lightening up front, so he recommened a 325 over a 350. i guess i might have to play with it a bit, springs are only 35 each from summit for qa1s

RTFC

I would stay with the 325 with the aluminum heads and glass hood. Thats quite abit of weight off the nose of a stock V8 car.

What I would really recommend you do is go to a longer balljoint stud so you can get the A-arm angle back down for better geometry and mainly get that front roll center back up- then the 325's will be more than adequate for the front under hard roadracing conditions due to less lateral leverage on them.

Thats one beauty of having coilovers is you can adjust your roll center height and retain the ride height by adjusting the coilovers back to the original fender gap before the roll center adjustment.

Ipersonally would go to an adjustable Mono-ball rather than a ball joint if this is more of a weekend play car.

irocdan

pics of your install?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Slide a shock bushing over the strut shaft (you might have to slit it to do it), it’s “stickier” then a zip tie so it’s more likely to stay where it gets pushed up to.

BMmonteSS

rtfc, your right, I was on my head measuring by eye ball. My point was that he was in the ball park of stock, and he reall needs to get some bump stops on there. There's no reason in the world to rely on just the springs to keep your suspension from bottoming out. Every race car in the world has some form of bump stop, most run adjustable silastos on the shock themselfs to tune how the car reacts when it does bottom.

reborn92rs

Thanks for all the replies.

I called Spohn and was told that 300# springs was roughly equal to 715# conventional, which was well over stock. I told them of my problem and they still claim that I havent reached stock ride height and that the struts are bottoming out. Can anyone measure from the same point as I did or somewhere I can measure from too and compare with me? I didnt want to lower my car anyways, the roads around here wont let me.

Isn't it not possible to slap a-arm to kmemeber with coilovers because you will achieve spring bind long before the a-arm gets close to the kmember? To me it makes sence why I have no-where to put bump stops but if anyone knows a way to mount some I'll definately give it a shot.

I liked the zip tie idea a lot. While I cant fit fingers between the spring coils I thought about using the zip tie a different way. I'm going to put some on the spring itself and see if they crush which would mean I have way to soft springs. I'll report back soon.

If anyone can tell me what my ride height should be I'd definately appreciate it.

BMmonteSS

it's just not possible to eleminate all bottoming if you drive this thing on any kind of normal roads. Your going to end up with crazy stiff springs and or 4x4 ride height. I'd look into silastos, their just a bump stop that sits around the shock shaft, most coilovers have them. I can't remember off the top of my head if you can get to just the shock shaft on camaro's or ther is some kind of mount at the top of the shock shaft. You can't split one and slip it around the shaft it'll just spread.

laiky

Dean:

Where do you get extended ball joints from?? do they fit stock arms without modification?

It always bothered me how the A-arms can go past horizontal with lowering springs, will the ball joints help if you are not extreamly lowered?

RTFC

From Coleman Racing and others like them.

We run the GM mid-sze balljoint on our lower A-arms. They press in just the same as any factory replacement. The Mono-***** have replaceable spherical bearings just like the aftermarket billet strunt mounts do so they can be serviced fairly easily. I personally like the Mono-***** because you can readily adjust the shims just like you can on the bumpsteer kits- but they do wear quicker than a conventional ball joint so the bearings need to be serviced probably about once a year with normal driving. Its more of a race specific part that doesn't see high milage and gives you one more tunning tool to work with setting up the chassis.

now by using either an extended balljoint or a Mono-ball with a convetional spring setup, you will lower the car ride height without being able to make any height adjustments with the spring. You WILL either need 1) weight jackers on conventional springs, 2) shims on the conventional springs (this is a pain in the butt), or 3) a coilover setup where you can adjust ride height without changing out springs for different lengths to get the alinment back to original position and ride height it was before balljoint change.

Now if you simply install an extended balljoint (say 1/2" longer) to get the A-arm angle correct, the A-arm will still remain exactly at the same angle it was and the car will sit 1/2" lower than when you started- and your alignment will be off.
To correct this, you will need to get an adequate spring shim (a shim 42% the thickness of 1/2" to be exact) to extend the length of the spring so the car raises back to its stance before the extended balljoint install. AND Now what happens is you have not only corrected your A-arm swing geometry on a lowered car better (see pic attached) but you have raised the front roll center (this is a good thing) an but in doing so you have stiffened the roll rate due to less leverage on your front coilsprings- you may need to rebalance the car with either softer front springs, or with stiffer rear srpings- you'll have to drive the car and see how it responds and what is needed top correct steady state corner balance.

*Note* the picture is referencing Tierod adjustment for good geometry, but the same applies for the balljoint with a Mono-ball and shims installed that adjust exactly like the bumpsteer kit pictured on the tierod.

GM Mid-size Mono-ball
http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog...p?cPath=49_717
Gm mid-size 1/2"extended balljoint

BMmonteSS

Here's another place to get ball joints like those. These are made a little different, the stud is one piece, so thats why their more expensive, but they do the same thing as the colemans only they are sealed for loger life. Us G-body guys know all about messing with ball joints to get your roll center in the ball park.

http://www.scandc.com/

I'm actually surprised that no one has tried to use a g-body spindle and make an uppr a-arm mount in order to do a dual A-arm setup on a F-body. With a decent camber curve in the front these cars could be deadly quick.

RTFC

Those are full-size K-6141 GM ball joints and will not work on our cars

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

stock car with stock ws6 springs its 27.5 inches from ground to fenderwell

reborn92rs

Thanks Mkos, my car now sits at 27.5", I was close at 27" on both sides.

I think I know what slammed together, take a look at this picture of the right coilover (unloaded at this point). pic
Notice the damage to the sleve? The other side has a little scuffing in the same area but not nearly as much as this side. I did not take a picture but while I was underneath the car working on something else I looked up at the spring. The angles of the lower spring perch on the sleve, and the top of the spring as it sits on the car frame are NOT parallel. Its angled in such a way that the spring bends inwards not surprisingly where the sleve took a hit. Is this normal for coilovers?

If I had stiffer springs would they resist this inwards bending more? My guess right now is if the springs are binding they may be getting pushed inwards, though I dont know if they even need to bind to hit at this point.

Sorry for all the long posts, I cant seem tokeep it short.

reborn92rs

Talked again to Spohn and I was again informed that my struts are bottoming out causing the damage. They guarenty that the 300 springs are more than enough for the car. Their solution is to get the new upper mounts that mount the spring into them.... Now if only they will take back the billet mounts I already bought from them.

Does anyone have anything I could try? I dont understand why Im having such problems with the car sitting at stock height. Anything???

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

what height are the springs he uses? a 350 spring with a 10" height such as what some of the other companies use would make the vehicle very tall in the front. i had to use a 200 eibach ers to get the car closer to a lowered stance, even the 250lb hal 10x2.5 was rather high.

JPrevost

Another issue with coil overs .
If you wanted to keep the spring rate and avoid the binding you'll need to get different spring build, not just the rate although either will work.
One other alternative is to stack 2 springs into a prograssive. It's used on off-road vehicles religiously to keep things soft and then prevent bottoming out.
Can you get a picture of your springs with the wheels on the ground or on ramps? It would be easier to tell you where to look if I had a good visual.

Motor City Mike

Why not just use a regular strut style bump stop that goes on the strut shaft, like most FWD cars use? I currently don't have a coil-over conversion for my car, so I really don't know if it's even feasable, but it seems like this would be the best solution.

MrDude_1

because that would make the stop slam the weight of the car on the "not so strong" alum upper strut mount plate he has...

Motor City Mike

From what I understand, this area is already reinforced with thick steel plates which are included with the coil-over conversion kit.

JPrevost

Yes, but what is next in line to fail... the forces don't just disapear . With proper bracing I think he'd be okay with that style bump stop. When I say proper I mean whatever he thinks is enough because GM never engineered those strut towers to hold the weight of the vehicle let alone the impact that would result from hard bump stops.
Weld some 1" fluted tubes from the "frame" rails up to the strut mount plate and weld the plate to the inner fender sheet metal because who knows how strong those spot welds will be after a few hard cycles. Just my . Better safe than sorry.

MrDude_1

no.

the LOWER strut plate holds the spring, and the weight of the car.

the UPPER plate just holds the strut in place.

placing a bumpstop on the strut shaft will make it so that when the strut reaches max up travel, it sandwiches the stop between the strut body, and the UPPER plate. a bad idea.

reborn92rs

Thank you for the replies! Ive been busy lately and dont get time for the camaro very often, every few days/weekends at best. I'll have some pics up tomorrow hopefully.JPrevost, is there any particular shot your after? Underneath, ride height, the inwards bending of the spring?

I'm not familiar with these strut mounting bump stops, I took a quick look under a fwd buick I have and found it had a-arm ones as well.

And its like MrDude_1 said and Spohn reasurred me they will not fail. The weight of the car sits spread over 1/2"( total) thick plates plus the body of the car, there is no actual weight on the upper strut mount, its just a placeholder for the strut.

JPrevost

Get a picture of the coil-over loaded (on the ground or jacked up but weight of corner on the wheel). If the coils are nearly touching the spring rate is too soft for the diameter, height, and gauge wire of the springs.

reborn92rs

Appologies, thought I would have time yesterday but by the time I did it started pouring.

Anywho heres 3 views of the strut and car stance.


loaded

underneath

sideview

Note on the loaded pic how the strut itself took a hit too, I hadnt caught that before. Underneath pic shows that the springs bow inwards, I still dont know if thats normal because I cannot think of a way that would be stopped. And finally sideview is the car sitting with from ground to fender 28" measured.

Thanks again!

JPrevost

From the looks of it you've bottomed out the spring. Look at the upper spring roller bearing. It's deformed pretty bad.
To calculate your max height measure the gauge wire or as QA1 (maybe even Steve) what the compressed height is. Then with the bottom spring perch where it is right now for your ride hieght, go and remove the spring, jack up the bottom of the LCA and measure the compressed height of the spring from upper perch to the bottom. That'll tell you the max tire travel and give you a good picture. Another way is to keep the spring on there and somehow rig it so you can compress the spring to compression height but that could be dangerous so I won't recommend it.
For a quicky, if you could measure the distance between those air gaps and multiply it by 8 that'll give you the approx travel of the strut/spring and then you can subtract that to get a good picture.
In the end though, it's best to test it on the street to see if it's bottoming out. If you've got a local golf driving range or store around they'll have some compression tape that they put on the end of their drivers/woods to tell them where they're hitting the ball. Ask for a one, cut it up and install them imbetween the coils. Drive around, see if there is a dark line on them, that'll tell you for a fact that you're coming to the limits.
It doesn't sound like there is anything wrong with Spohn's design but it does look like one more coil-over con than pro. Looking at the gauge metal on those springs it looks like they took the time to figure out the cyclic strength of them which is good. A stiffer spring from them will probably solve any bottoming out issues so long as they're uncompressed height's and gauge wire are the same. That way the stiffer rate comes from the pitch (number of coils will be less). That'll give you more wheel travel! That's just assuming they change the pitch.. hopefully.
Good luck with the measurements and keep us posted. I'm sure Steve's reading this and could use any feedback to further improve his design.

reborn92rs

I did the quick and dirty method of measuring, which seems accurate enough when you use a good pair of calipers. I noticed that my car seems to be heavier on one side than the other... not surprisingly the right is heavier. I measured in mm just because I hate doing fractions with inches, so I converted for you.

The right coils are seperated by 5.5mm (0.22")
The left coils are seperated by 7mm (0.28")

So that says that I have 1.76" of travel on the right and 2.24" on the left. That cant be right,... right?

Thanks for the help again.

JPrevost

That's what it looked like. I was guessing a 1/4 inch spacing... not much room. With the spring being that far out it needs to do a lot more compressing than a spring in the stock position. 2" of travel is really low with a soft spring rate.
That might just be your problem.
Call up QA1 and ask them if they have or can make you a spring with the same uncompressed height, ID, and rate. Hopefully they can and will give you a spring with thicker gauge wire and higher pitch. That'll decrease the compressed height to give you more travel.
Another option is stiffer springs.

reborn92rs

Thanks for all the help JPrevost! Ill be calling QA1 Monday.

Their website is down for maintenance but they left access to their product catalog up. I didnt see anything obvious about having different gauge/pitch springs unfortunately so I think Im going to go with stiffer springs. My dumb logic says that if I go to 350# springs I will have 150# more resistance at the same spring compression length. So if I took 150# of weight off a 300# spring Id be 1/2 inch higher. So by fuzzy comparisons would a 350# be 1/2" more travel only? Thats probably some bad, bad math right there