thirdgenfcarnut

I have replaced every rubber bushing under my car with energy suspension polyurethane, installed KYB struts and shocks, all new Moog steering linkage with Hotchkis tie rod sleeves, new Moog balljoints, a stock steering brace (wonderbar) from a Z28, and a remanufactured Z28 steering box. This car still handles like s**t. My steering is spongy and not very responsive. I have about a half inch of play left and right of center. I know there is an adjustment nut on the steering box, but I am reluctant to play with it for fear of overtightening and wrecking the gear. Does anyone have experience with adjusting the box that can give me some help? And/or pics?
I plan on subframe connectors, just saving the $$$.

Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

You mention nothing of your alignment. What specs are you running? Hopefully not stock.

thirdgenfcarnut

After I put the car together it went straight to a very reputable shop close to me which specializes in front-end work. Aptly named The Front End Shop. They are fully tooled with Hunter equipment. They performed a full alignment. When I picked the car up they gave me a printout of the specs they dialed the car to. I just can't find it, have moved since then. The car drives straight as an arrow. It is just not as crisp and responsive as I believe it could be. A friend of mine had a 85 Trans Am and that thing was amazing. Also, I forgot to mention that I replaced the rag joint with a brand new one.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I just brought my car in for a steering problem as well... This is what I had replaced recently:

Tokico blue shocks/struts
Tokico Strut mounts
Mac strut tower brace
New GM steering linkage (center link, idler arm, inner/outer tie rods, tie rod sleeves, ball joints, etc.)
Stock 16 inch iroc rims with fairly new tires (80% tread left)
Momo commando R steering wheel with new hub
Stock springs (am looking into changing these)
TDS steering brace (3 bolts into frame)
Energy suspension sway bar bushings (i have stock 34"front / 24" rear)
Alignment done by a professional alignment shop that specializes in that

All this was replaced not more than 1000 miles ago and Right now i have a problem with the steering that has been progressively getting worse... It will freely move about an inch left and right without affecting the wheels, which means on the highway on a non-perfect road this thing does the dance of death, and this is going like 50MPH.. With this problem I wouldn't dare go any faster.. I noticed the steering shaft is loose but I will let a professional take care of the prob and let you guys know what it was, maybe we got the same problem?

I'll keep you updated..

Later
-Marc
----------
Oh, while I'm at it, I might as well add that when i try and do a U-turn it is nearly impossible as my car jumps up if i try to turn the car and my steering wheel is turned all the way to the locking point.. Also, the side of the tire rubs on the inside of the wheel well... Weird... I was thinking about smashing it with a hammer to bend it but i don't wanna bend things if I don't have to... Maybe there is a problem elsewhere? Thanks!

thirdgenfcarnut

My first car, an 84 camaro, drove perfect when I first got it. Until one fateful night on the way to a friend's house, I was cresting a hill on a narrow road, traveling only 35 mph. An oncoming car, driving right in the middle of the road met me at the top... to avoid a head-on collision, I swerved to the right and ended up in a ditch. The impact cracked the right front framerail, literally seperating it from the body. After that it was impossible to control on the highway. Even on local roads it wandered left and right. When ever I tried to make a turn, the wheels would rub the fenderwell. I went to a buddies shop and he welded it as best he could. The car drove much better, but it was never the same again since the frame was pretty twisted up. Have a good body shop do a thorough underbody inspection. Maybe the previous owner had an argument with a curb. It does not take much to bend these cars

TransAM Joe

iTrader: (6)

You need to adjust the backlash in the steering box, here is how to do it properly. http://www.monte-list.nu/tech/boxmesh.shtml

thirdgenfcarnut

Awesome!!! Thankyou very much TransAM Joe. BTW, Darkshot< you pointed out that I made no mention of my alignment in my original post. I then replied that it was done by a shop in my area... Since that posting, I put the front of the car up to grease the linkage. I decided to remove my front wheels to make the job easier... To my dismay I noticed excessive and equal wear on the inside treads of BOTH tires. When you said "hopefully not stock specs" is this what you meant? I guess this shop did not do as good of a job as they should have

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

I have mine set to have a little negitive camber, alot of positive camber, and some toe out. It helps the responsiveness of the car when entering a turn. I don't know what they set the allignment to, but I don't think a properly alligned car would eat the tires, even if it was at stock settings. Do some research as to what the different settings in the allignment do and how they affect the tire wear and then go to a good shop with what you have in mind and see if they'll set the car up the way you want.
The steering slop is in the steering box, most likely because they don't set them when they remanufacture them. You can adjust your own box, like in the link. I'm just going to buy one built by Flamming River when I get the money.

Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

Don't mess with the backlash on the steering box if it's brand new/reman. It should be set perfectly when you get it, and if it's not you need to send it back to whoever sold it to you. On top of that, if you **** with it then they might not take it back. I have personally had to send back a reman steering box due to excessive play after ~500 miles.

You need to establish the source of the play. Get under there and have somebody move the steering wheel back and forth (fast, slow, engine on, engine off).

You should be examining the steering shaft and watch the rag joint to make sure it moves as one piece.

Even the slightest rotation of the steering box input shaft should directly relate to movement of the output shaft and pitman arm.

Pitman arm, center link, tie rods, and idler arm should all move as one piece with zero play. You should not be able to budge any of these parts by grasping them tightly and jerking them back and forth with all your strength (please don't do this with the car up on stands/ramps/jack/anything other than it's wheels on the ground or half-parked on the sidewalk over the gutter so you can reach).

Examine the box and the subframe rail that it bolts to while somebody turns the wheel, make sure it's not pulling away from the subframe or anything crazy like that.

Kevin84Z28

iTrader: (3)

Can someone please post a picture of the rag joint or upload a diagram? Thanks in advance.

blyth18md

No hes not, hes buying a lee steering box.

thirdgenfcarnut

Here you go... Hope this is helpful. These cars are supposed to come with a black plastic protective sleeve from the factory

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

It appears some of my slack was caused by that bolt on the steering shaft being loose... There is no slack in the steering wheel anymore, but my car is still not as smooth in the steering as it should / used to be. When i turn the steering wheel there is a sort of slop / pop noise as if there was some resistance to turn it, my car still has that black plastic sleeve thing over the shaft / rag joint. It looks to be in good shape and there isn't a spec of rust anywhere under there, probably just worn out rag joint?
Another thing that sounds scary... When I back into the driveway, when i turn the wheel to straighten up the car, there's a cracking noise coming from the front driver's side under the hood.. No idea what that is, and I've never had that before...

Later
-Marc

thirdgenfcarnut

Hey Darkshot, I went back to the shop where I got the box. They also did the alignment... They told me that the box, linkage, and joint are fine. The play I am feeling is "the way it is" and since the other two cars I drive are rack and pinion I am trying to compare apples and oranges. What BS!!! Right? My tires are a year old and they are already in need of replacement!! Tonight I will do what you suggest, have the wife turn the steering wheel while I get under there and see whats going on for myself. I will keep you posted. By the way, I want to thank everyone for their input. It is greatly appreciated!

Kevin84Z28

iTrader: (3)

The "Wife" ? I would never get under my car with the wife behind the wheel.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

i never let my girlfriend drive my car... only once in the parking lot and that was quite enough let me tell you

naf

iTrader: (7)

Been thru several re-built boxes and always had better luck with a used box that I re-built myself and set to proper lash.

Thirdgenfcarnut posted a pic of a rag joint eliminator, looks like the linkage from an Astro Van?

With the car parked you can identify most problem areas by twisting the steering shaft and looking for play. Most common problems are the rag joint (make sure you pull back the cover to visually check it while you twist) and the center link.

A loose tilt wheel or loose shaft bolt ('bout half way down the shaft between the firewall and the box) will cause a different feeling of looseness-loose without any resistance. Other slop in components may not be quite so apparent with the wheels up and less resistance to steering movements.

Steering that is stiff to turn initially then over corrective (jerky feeling) is often caused by bad ball joints.

All of the above assumes your wheel bearings are good...

A cracked frame rail at the box is another common problem area. A close inspection around the box's mounting points followed by observing the box/frame while turning the shaft with engine running, car in park is ALWAYS a good idea.

A search will turn up several recommended alignment settings. Sort thru the ones you find then pick your favorite, the most popular, whatever. I won't go so far as recommending anything, but there ARE settings that are more tire friendly than factory.

Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

If memory serves I had them set my alignment to

+4.5 degrees caster both sides
-0.5 degrees camber both sides
1/16" toe-in

But do a search on this.

Kevin84Z28

iTrader: (3)

Might as well try for a diagnosis. My steering is tight when I turn the wheel to the left. But there's about two to three inches (maybe more) of play when making right turns. Boths sides were pretty bad before I put on a remanufactured sport steering box. Now I just have the slop on right turns. Would that be something that could be remedied by adjusting the lash?

thirdgenfcarnut

Well, with the front of the car up on jack stands and the wife standing outside the car manipulating the steering wheel through the open driver side window, I took a look at what is going on with the linkage... The slightest movement of the wheel translated directly to the input shaft of the box, but no movement of the tie-rods, center-link, idler-arm. What I did see is the output shaft of the box shifting side to side and a soft clunking as it moved. As she slowly increased the left to right movement of the steering wheel, the output shaft of the box began to move the pitman arm enough to effect the rest of the linkage. The slop is coming from the box itself Is this excessive play an adjustment of the pitman shaft "over center" or did I get a crap reman unit?

blyth18md

First thing would be to adjust the box. You wont get rack feel out of it, out of an OEM, or out of a parts store reman.

If you want a good box, http://www.scandc.com/leesteering.htm.

Its mic'd, revalved, bench tested...closest thing you'll get to rack feel.

naf

iTrader: (7)

I'd take that box back. Sounds like the pitman shaft bearing is bad, has excessive play or something has been installed incorrectly.

TransAM Joe

iTrader: (6)

I wouldn't trust any setting done to a reman part, I would even take the time to at least check a new GM box, the settings are that important. Part one is for someone who wants it to be close and not really a performance setting. Part two is what most here want/expect the steering to feel like, so in my opinion take the box out and follow part two, you will thank yourself when done.

thirdgenfcarnut

I do apologize. You are right, I have a rag joint eliminator in my car. My mistake. When I was looking for the parts to completely redo the front end of the car I was told the rag joint was no longer available as a replacement part from GM, so, I was given this setup.

I did forget to mention in my original post that I replaced the wheel bearings along with rotors, calipers, pads

thirdgenfcarnut

here is a picture of the ragjoint. this would be at the input shaft of the steering box.
As an update, I went back to the shop again where I got the steering box and the alignment done. He looked at the car and told me that he saw the play in the box and would adjust it for me. But first I would have to buy new tires and replace my idler arm (THE FING THING IS ONLY A YEAR OLD AND ITS SHOT ALREADY!!!!!) He would also redo my alignment but since i put 18,000 miles on the car since it was there last he would have to charge me for the alignment. He had the specs on file with a copy of my work order! I looked at the idler arm and saw the play he was talking about... I guess that'll teach me to buy garbage from NAPA and go with the Moog. The best price I can find on the MOOG idler arm is $73 WOW!!!

thirdgenfcarnut

Well, I replaced the idler arm and it was shot. It was the only part that was not MOOG. I forgot that at the time I was buying all the parts they did not have the Moog Arm in stock so I settled for what they had. Anyway, I did the adjustments on the steering box (lash and over center). The guys who told me the box was shot are right... I went to three other shops to get their opinions because I no longer trusted the Front End Shop. They all told me "That Box Is Shot" The FRont End Shop said "sure we can charge you for another alignment and adjust the box for you" Well no amount of adjustment made the box feel good. What I did feel was how sensitive the front wheels were to following the ruts in the road. I could feel the pitman arm shifting/clunking from side to side in the box through the steering wheel. And now the car is so much more sensitive to the slightest correction in the steering wheel. I am going to try and rebuild this myself and see what happens. I found the rebuild and adjustment procedures in my GM shop manual. There is a kit at Auto Zone. Does anyone have any reccomendations for a rebuild kit or where to get one from? Any input is greatly appreciated

naf

iTrader: (7)

From your description I'd suspect that the pitman shaft bearing is either fubar or the shaft seals/washers/snap ring are wrong or improperly installed. A basic rebuild kit from AZ will have a replacement bearing along with new seals and washers for the shaft.

When disassembling it pay close attention to the seat that the large pitman shaft sits in. If it's wallowed out and the play isn't in the bearings you may need a new case.

92camaroz28ss

iTrader: (1)

i am going to follow the progress on this post as my steering is loose as well. i also think something in the front end might be adding to my massive vibration

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

That plastic cover on the steering shaft was not clipped on and was causing my weird popping sound / resistance on my steering wheel. Also, as I mentioned before the loose slack in the steering was caused by the loose bolt on the steering shaft. I've yet to play with the adjustment of the box as I do not want to mess it up.

That's my experience with it right now and it appears to be all good. Only thing left would be on the highway my car dances when i drive in truck grooves on the road, also my tires rub the inner fender when doing u-turns. (turning the wheel all the way.)

Later
-marc

thirdgenfcarnut

Well, after much deliberation (and a good look at my finances) I picked up a reman Z box from Auto Zone. Once NAF told me of the chance the case of the box may be bad, I decided that trying to rebuild for the first time may mean too much down time for the car. Its my DD. Besides, the Auto Zone box comes with a limited lifetime warranty. The swap took me 3 hours including a trip to the store for more PS fluid. I only bought 12 oz. Needed almost 24 oz. I must say it is a pleasure to drive a car that does not do the "dance of death" on the local highway (and its raining tonite). Steering is responsive, with no wander and a much better feel than the POS box that was put in a year ago. On my 7 mile test run I barely had any correction at all. I did not adjust the lash or over center as per the warning on the box. I may do that later. While someone worked the steering wheel, I lay underneath and checked for any play, lag, or unwanted movement. All is good. The Z box is supposed to be 2.5 turns lock to lock. This box and my old one are only 2 turns. Any thoughts? Now I want to take the old box and throw it through the window of the guy who sold it to me... But I really need my $28 core charge back... LOL

naf

iTrader: (7)

Good deal. I've personally not had good luck with remans but there must be some out there that are OK.

A 2-3/4 turn box may have different stops in it that limit the turning radius for different size tires. There are also stops on your a-arms that will limit steering travel. If set up for larger, maybe 16" tires, the box may have fewer turns than the standard 2-3/4 and/or the a-arm stops are limiting it. Shouldn't be a problem.

thirdgenfcarnut

Well the new tires have been ordered. I will be having them and the alignment done the same day. My best friend recently reminded me that one of our high school buddies still works at Sears as one of the alignment techs for almost 16 years now. I completely forgot!!! I called him up, he had me come down, ordered the tires and told me he would personally set the alignment for me. And he gave me his employee discount... WOW. After a bit of searching and reading up on a bunch of posts I think I am going to go with this setup which Darkshot has suggested. Most other guys seem to agree on a very close variation of this. When I read some of Darkshot's and NAF's other posts on this matter, they mention some issues I am still having, are solved by this setup. I will let you know how it goes... Thankyou everyone for your input... it has been a great help to me

naf

iTrader: (7)

I ran for the longest time on the factory, and alignment tech's, recommended settings for camber (basically zero). After a change to add some negative camber I noticed a significant improvement in cornering. The original settings caused the outside tire to dig and force oversteer. The negative settings are much more neutral.

Of course the alignment tech claimed I'd suffer outside edge wear faster-he didn't like the settings I wanted. I rotate fairly regularly and haven't noticed any undue wear...

KYLE87

iTrader: (5)

I adjusted it at the steering box about a week ago and it is tons better!

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Where is the adjusting screw on the steering box (someone have a pic) and how tight does the screw have to be?

Thanks!

naf

iTrader: (7)

There are two adjustments. Before adjusting the top overcenter the pre-load on the input must be set correctly. It is really best to do it with the box out of the car and empty of fluid. Over-adjusting the top nut will kill a box fairly easily and trying to get it tight with the input plug pre-load loose can make for some hairy behavior (and lead the inexperienced into overtightening the top nut).

thirdgenfcarnut

Well, the tires I ordered arrived, so, Friday night I went to see my friend at Sears. He put my new tires on and set up my alignment with the specs Darkshot posted. He agreed they would be a little more tire friendly and other than the toe, these specs are within the recommended range. Just before I left him to do his thing, I asked if he could print out what the car was before any adjustments were made. The Front End Shop had the caster pretty close, but my front wheels were toed WAY out. The right was .70 and the left was .14 W.T.F!!!!!! No wonder the car wandered so bad and the inside tread was shot on both tires. I was basically pushing a car to go straight that wanted to make both a left and right turn. Those guys at The Front Ends Shop have no business owning an alignment machine. The new box and idler arm made a big difference, but the car was still wandering and I was having to hold the car straight when I slowed to a stop.
Now, the car is absolutely amazing!!! I am SO happy with the way it drives. This is what I have been striving for since day one!!! No wander, barely any correction, awesome reaction, great cornering. If anyone in New Jersey wants a GOOD alignment man, P.M. me. I will hook you up with my friend at Sears and you can be assured it will be done the way you want and correctly.

BluFBdy

iTrader: (1)

naf is there any way you can get some pix up for the visual learners out here

anyone ever consider doing a formal write up on this? Its pretty valuable info.....

naf

iTrader: (7)

transamjoe in post #6 above provided a link the montecarloss site that has a technical writeup on bench adjusting the box. Read through to the end of the write up.

If you take out the box, I like to go ahead and coat it in some POR 15; except for the aluminum cap. I sometimes polish it up with a light wire wheel then hit it with some clear. Not completely freaky on it or anything, I just find myself trying to clean things up a little before re-installing.

Take the time to inspect the frame rails behind the box for cracks while you're there. Check that rag-joint too.

There's also a $2-3 filter you can pick up at AZ or one of the others that goes in-line on the power steering return. Cheap insurance after swapping pieces/parts out. It's too easy for a piece of an o-ring to get sucked thru and cause havoc.

Sonymaster20

iTrader: (3)

Hows the car doing now? I'm still looking forward to doing this one day.

thirdgenfcarnut

Car still handles and drives great. Makes every minute of my daily commute a pleasure... well worth it.

transam85dudeman

i used grade 8 bolts, two 2" long bolts and two 1.5" bolts.
-(2)1.5" and (2) 2" bolts
-(4) washers
-(4) lockwashers
-(8) nuts
-Brass tube for bushing
-locktight

I did up my rag joint with stock components and a new rag. The hardware included in the kit wasn't sufficient, in-fact it was useless, in the pic included, its the grind off original rivet, the grade 8 bolt, and the one of two bolts included with the rad joint. I used the grade 8 bolts but added a brass bushing cut from just a tube. The brass bushing helps from the bolt chewing up the new joint and helps with the oversize hole. The holes in the hard steering coupler that connects to the rag joint is 5/16 so i couldnt fatter bolt. I put the long bolts so the threaded ends are at the gear box side of the rag joint because the 1.5" bolts didnt fit, and the 2" bolts fit, but needed to be grounded down for clearance of the gear box input shaft. I couldnt use 2" on the steering shaft side because there wasnt enough threads but 1.5" worked. I put a flat washer on the bolt head, and ran the bolt through the assembly then a lock washer, locktight red, a nut and torque evenly to about 70 in/lbs more red locktight and then added the second nut and held the torqued nut with a 1/2" wrench and torqued the outside nut with a regular socket wrench really tight. then grind off the ends on gear box side. a new rag joint and bolts costed $15, Jegs wants $105 new for theres ( http://www.jegs.com/i/Borgeson/153/0...0002/-1?CT=999 )

usamuscle892

yeah so i was just drving around the neighborhood and all of a sudden my steering turned into a wet noodle. I also note that the wheel will not lock when turned either way and the key out. the weather is bad here so i will have to check my fluid and everything tomorrow but this seems to have come from no where.

scooter500

iTrader: (1)

I found that the link is dead. anyone have instructions that used to be there?

transam85dudeman

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...trggear-4-.jpg
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...nsion-how.html

scooter500

iTrader: (1)

thanks, will read links closely. so on steering box adjust preload, then top over center adjustment, and replace rag joint since in neighborhood

- what is the ~torque on rag joint bolts?

87CamaroIrocZ

your link dont eork

87zjeff

iTrader: (4)

both links in the post before yours work for me.

TreeFiddy

Me too. That and this thread is 2-4 yrs old.

silentkillzr

iTrader: (2)

Did you tighten up the bolts within the steering col? I know theres some bolts deep down in there that loosen up. Theres a write up on here somewhere.