carkook

I have a 92 RS, and am in desperate need of some power. The lt1 swap will take care of that but I want this car too be able to HANDLE with the BEST.

I plan on doing this with Racecraft 2" drop spindles, KYB AGX's, Edelbrock Strut Tower Brace, Wonder Bar, LCA Relocation Brackets, Adjustable Panhard Bar, Complete Bushing Overhaul and Ground Control Springs and Weight jacks.

The Drop spindles will Lower the car dramatically and keep the front end suspension geometry intact, I still plan to lower the car a bit more with the weight jacks, but still it will be like a 1" drop as far as the suspension is concerned which is better the most 3rd gens with drop springs. In the rear, the relocation brackets should correct for most of the drop. I will prabably pick up a set of C5 vette wheels and run some good tires as well.

I have had AGX's before on another car, (NISSAN 240SX), I couldnt of been more pleased, the car handled great and those things were indestructable! Autocross, drift events, daily driven over pot hole infested freeways 100 miles a day for over a year, understeered over a 6 inch curb, they were still good when I sold the car! And then with some chassis stiffening this thing should be pretty solid. I havnt done any research on sway bars yet so I will look into that before I say anything about them.

My main concern and where Im unsure of is what SPRING RATE too run. I want it as stiff as possable, Almost to the point where it isn't streetable. Ive ridden in many cars with track rated spring rates only that are daily driven and it doesnt bother me. The standard ratio for springs (front too back) on the irocs were 5/1. But I was thinking 4/1 couldnt be too bad. I want to start with 1200 lb fronts and 300 rears, but even then the rear seems kind of on the soft side.

So say this car were a track car only, some autocross but some high speed tracking as well, what spring rates would you start with?

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Consider an after market strut mount, like the J&M or the Spohn version, or you won't gain the full benefit of the STB. Also, I'm surprised that you haven't included SFC's in your mod list.

JamesC

Guest

Put the new motor and drivetrain (ie truetrac, auburn, etc) in first.

Why?

Cause if you taylor the suspension to the current motors weight and drivetraibns characteristics, then you change them, you are starting over in tuning.

Yoiu have alot of money you need to spend to do what you are stating. Better expect about 25K minimum.

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

When I priced everything I wanted to do to my 85 T/A, I reached a similar dollar figure.

Guest

I had that in my car easy, with a stock longblock 2.8 even. Had lots of bolton goodies, but no real money into the longblock itself other than roller rockers. I am aboutto add things up for my lawyer as for what I had into that car money wise and what I estimate the value of it to be if sold today. Figure it would bring about 1/3rd the money I put into it unfortunately, but thats how car projects go.

Here was my modification list:

Started life as a Limited production '87 Calif Edition RS Camaro with a custom dealer paint scheme.
I have added-
*'87 IROC 16x8 rims that I had chromed- Rims then were balanced grind to ensure perfect balance before tires were ever fitted. Reducing the need for much balance weight when tires are mounted
*Multiple sets of high dollar performance tires-update 7/05,BFG KDW(cut a Goodyear GSD3, needed tires quickly. The KDW were readily availiable yet not 1st choice)
*Arp racing studs 1/2" x 2.970
*1/2" lugnuts - triple chromed
*'87 IROC 10-bolt with rear discs, 3.23's and posi (I'll get more into this later- It has been modified from this stock point)
*Various sets of stock front and rear 10.5" performance rotors and pads. Mainly Stillen brake rotors and pads were best by far in the 10.5" iron caliper catagory.
* finally after years of not keeping "reliable" (meaning long lasting without warping) brakes on the car I decided to upgrade them- Wilwood LS1 12.2x.810 4pot rears with internal drum parking brake assembly.
*All brake fasteners have been drilled and safetywired (rotors, brackets and calipers)
*Lokar custom fit steelbraided E-brake cables and clevis, stock parking lever adjuster removed and part of assembly altered
*Fronts are 6pot 13x1.25 Wilwood -Biggest anyone can get under a stock 16" iroc rim- Everything custom made and fitted from scratch. Spindles shaved for weight reduction
*GLobal West custom billet aluminum G-body front hubs
*Custom alum hubcentric wheel spacers to set proper scrub pattern with new front brake setup
*Earls braided brake lines-Custom Earls fronts with fttings on Wilwood setup
*Earls Solo-bleed fluid valves
*1LE prop valve (I have recently put a new booster on also in the past two years.)
*EBC green pads for quiet street use
*Bracing welded to A-arms
*ES Bushings in A-Arms and extended ball joint
*Suspension Spring Specialist 800lb front linear springs trimmed to ride height. Final rate aprox 810-820lbs from trimming to exact desired height
*rear Progressive rate springs 145-225lb max
*Koni shaft style progessive rate bumpstops that are setup to assist the rear spring rate even further progessively to help induce a certain disired amount of cornering squat
*Koni "yellow" sport struts & shocks on max setting front and 1click down from max on rears
*Custom billet aluminum HMS strut mounts with special Aurora HD racing bearings. Also had them polished.
*Fairly agressive alignment specs for being used on the street everyday. If I didn't occationally drive this car hard, the wifes daily driving would cause uneven tire wear.
*Eldebrock TPI 3pt strut tower brace
*Global West steering brace (Car already has a quick ratio 2.25 lock to lock steering box from factory)
*Custom welded upper rear steering box brace (pre-loaded and removable)
*Custom welded trans tunnel/rear control are brace (pre-loaded and removable)
*Baer bumpsteer alum adj rodended tierods sleeves
*Spohn 34mm solid chromemoly front swaybar
*HD front swaybar frame mounts so the bar does not pull out of the frame under hard cornering
*Front grill and airboxes modified to alter airflow patterns into the nose of the car
*BeCool Aluminum V8 radiator, dual core.
*BeCool dual fan kit (rated @ 700hp)Relays and temp switches for both fans. One hardwired to battery and probed into radiator bung for redondant backup. First fan wired as standard 1 fan system on factory wiring and A/C relay.I had the Becool aluminum fan mounts TIG welded to the radiator upper and lower supports
*BeCool Billet catchcan
*Stainless Steel solid 3' long upper and lower radiator flex hoses. Polished billet alum hose ends (not copper flex hoses that are chromed, these are 100% SS.)
*Dual highflow air filters
*A/C system completely updated to a "new" R-134 setup. Not the old R-12 compressor converted.
*Darrell Young Racing "completely custom" (Not off the shelf) 700r4 with everything internally gutted and upgraded new with all the latest and greatest. Heavy emphasis went into minimal drivetrain loss with internal componant choices. Built to handle 300hp raced reliably for years hopefully. Been great for almost 3yrs so far (7/05)
*Custom made V8 torque convertor fitted to V6 tranny (Tranny has V8 imput shaft)
*Autometer trans temp guage with electric sender unit 100*-250*
runs @ 185*, max on 98* day at the track is 210*
*B & M shifter gate plate (Prototype)
*ACPT carbon fiber 4lb driveshaft with Spicer u-joints. Spohn driveshaft loop cut back off at this point- No more concern about a high speed polevault with the brooming carbon fiber safety system
*rebuilt 10bolt rearend with new bearings, seals and kept the taller 3.23's in it. I like this ratio on the road better than the 3.42's. They have a broader power range through corners and higher top end without going into O.D.- Good for roadracing.
* Moser alloy axles with lightweight drilled flanges to reduce rotation weight
* "Roadrace" version Auburn Posi
*Aluminum diff cover with bearing cap preloads
*BMR bolt-on relocation brackets (I welded them into place) Why bolt-ons? They have a secondary support brace that the weld-on styles don't- strengthens the shock mount for a future coilover rear conversion. I was thinking ahead, but don't now think I'll ever bother doing it.
*Spohn chromemoly TQarm with solid trans mount crossmember with driveshaft loop. I also fitted the front solid mount with a larger HD Aurora rodend.(edit: cut loop off when installed carbon fiber driveshaft)
*ES poly trans mount
*25mm chromemoly Spohn rear swaybar with HD axle mounts.
*Spohn chromemoly adj LCA's with special HD Aurora rodends (34,000 load rating) also added- Radius arm swing shorteneds as much as possible to induce roll understeer when cornering /update:new 56,000 load rating QA1 rodends now fitted. part # HMR12HCPT ("T" is teflon lined)
*Tubular panhard rod (Future changes will be made here to add roll center adj provisions)
*Jegs panhard rod relocator. Lowered rear roll center.
*Spohn tubular suframe connectors. I installed myself and welded them along the subframe. Custom bent trianglar inboard braces and welded them to the floorboard also. 1) to gain catalytic convertor height for ground clearance. 2) Direct bracing design- stronger and ties into, not laying on top like original Spohn design. he doesn't do this for ease of install for the average person.
*The entire floorboad is cleaned and epoxy painted to help prevent corrision.
*PF&E custom stainless steel headers (One of a kind. Stainless retains heat and is much perfered for racing, and for life expectancy of headers)Headers are on. Used VW(type1) 1 1/2" port metal/composite performance exhasut manifold gaskets.
*PF&E custom stainless steel y-pipe.
*Headers & y-pipe are also ceramic coated
*Magnaflow 4" round high flow catalytic convertor. 2 1/2" in and out
*Magnaflow 4" round Bullet muffler straightpipe for catalytic convertor removal
*Catalytic & bullet sections both have StainlessSteel V-clamp Collars for quick change.For track use, can up the fuel pressure without the cat so I do not burn it up.
*Catback exhaust completely redone with 2 1/2" pipe. Tucked under floorboard as tight as possible (It doesn't hang down like over the counter exhuasts do).
*StainlessWorks custom made smooth muffler installed into I-pipe potition
*10" long Cherrybomb tubo style chamber muffler and crome resonator tailpipe tip (very little rear car exhaust weight compared to factory designs)
*'89 Vette in-tank fuelpump. Higher pressure and flow with metal internals. Stock pump has plastic internals.
*Holley adjustable fuel pressure reg. Stock psi at idle:38/wot 43psi. I run idle 45psi/wot 55 psi
*Autometer air/fuel ratio gauge
*Autometer electric fuel pressure gauge 0-100psi
*Autometer FP sender tapped into stock fuel rail intake block
*62mm EDP billet alum TB (discountinued- but I have a new one)
*Custom home made alum plenum (not on car yet)
*Polished intake runners to injectors. Polished stock plenum neck as much as possible and also blocked the EGR to prevent the notorious carbon buildup(Ported and polished on uninstalled setup- I have another complete intake manifold for the new motor)
*17lb & 19lb injector sets (I still have the stock 15lb injectors in the car)
*1.52 roller tip rockers installed currently
*Fiero alum valvecovers (not installed)
*140amp polished Alt with custom bracket
*ASP crankshaft underdrive pulley
*new design tensioner
*timing cover with electric WP fitting TIG welded in place (not installed)
*aftermarket prom chip- programed for 180* running temp
*New distributor with A/C Delco module and dist based drilled for added cooling
*53,000volt Hypertech ignition coil. (Stock is 38,000, MSD is 48,000) Coil underneath further heatshielded from exhaust manifold
*Taylor 8.8mm race wires
*Taylor fire sleeves to heat shield the spark plug cable boots
*EVERY sensor in the computer system loop has been replace with a new A/C Delco units within the past 2 years- everything is perfect. A/C delco sensors and module are the best money can buy. They have great insulation against heat and will out perform anything else in the short and long run- don't ever buy any other brand.
*3 years ago I had a new 2.8 GM crate motor put into it (not rebuilt) It has currently about 41,000 on it.(as of 7/05)
*I run a longer oilfilter thanks to header clearance, 1/2qt more oil volume now in motor due to larger filter
*3.4L 60*V6 bolck on engine stand bored to 3.5l (in process of custom build)
*MobilOne full synthetic 15W50 oil in every car I drive.
*40below and swimming pool ("treated") water in the cooling system
*Deleted the TB coolant lines entirely for ease of plenum removal.
* 13 degree timing advance. stock is 10*
*redid the headliner
*LaCarrera polished 4-spoke steering wheel and polished billet hub with black bowtie engraved horn insert.
*Pioneer 1.5din CD player reciever unit- no amps. This unit doesn't need it. It has much much better sound than the factory ERS system. Amps add too much weight anyways- I'm into handling so I personally don't care for that crap in a car. I have a home system that will drowned out any ******* neighbor playing their crappy thump thump music in the rare case that happens in my neighborhood. Loud music doesn't belong in an automobile (My personal opinion) One need to listen to the noises your car is telling you when you drive- especially when pressing a car (A big tip for novice drivers.)
*Sylvainia Silverstar headlamps both low and high beams
*Triple edge lifetime wiperblades
*Personalized license plate reading: ON A RAIL
*Autolite plugs
*Optima "yellow" top battery ("Reds" are crap, they can not deep cycle and will ruin if discharged then jumpstarted)
*Does the matching painted floorjack count? I was bored
*Momo Street Racer GT recliner seats (Black/grey bead trim)http://www.momousa.com/product_view....ping.jpg&id=62
*Momo adjustable slider seat brackets (specific made for 3rdgen Camaro factory mounts)
*Dynamat sound deadening and heat insulation on roof, doors and floorboard including rear cargo area.
*ACC deluxe carpet kit
*Hurst dual gate shifter
*Hurst pistol grip
*AGR quick ratio 12:1 steering box with billet aluminum retainer plates
* Custom steering shaft made up of Flaming River solid swivel joints and telescopic shaft- stainless steel.
*Custom fabric headliner
*Custom fabric door panels
*factory aluminum front bumper support

Campbell84'T/A

im replacing the suspension in my 84 trans am and i already have most of the parts ready to be installed but im just wondering if there was anything that i looked over that would probably be important to have. my current parts are:
-front and back summit 2' drop springs
-kyb agx gas shocks/struts
-1' 3/8" front sway bar
-1' rear sway bar
-UMI torque arm
-UMI adjustable panhard
-UMI adjustable controll arms
-steering box frame support (wonderbar)

carkook

25k??? I dont know where your getting those numbers from, thats rediculous. I already got the engine picked up for 550 with the ECU and harness. I wired my own swap harness and have accumalated every part needed for the swap down the radiator hoses. Ive spent about 1g on parts for the swap so all together around 1500 for the LT1 swap.

Im doing all the work myself and have a great knowledge for automotive and electrical, just graduated an automotive school and completed the Cleain Air Course with the 09 Update with a 92% test average. Labor will cost nothing because I will be doing it so that isnt a problem.

As far as suspension goes I have already looked up prices, Even with the cost of the car, swap, and suspension it wouldnt even be close too 25k!

The car, 92 RS 305 5 speed 87k miles not one dent or scratch (3800)
LT1 swap(1500)
Suspension all together(1800)
Bushing Kit-100
Wonder Bar-40
Panhard Bar-105
Relocation Brackets-60
Drop spindles-550
Springs/Weightjacks-460
AGX's-450
Edelbrock Brace-100

So TOTAL for everything is 7,100. The only thing this isnt counting is a catback exhuast and wheels/tires.

But back to my MAIN question, for a track car what springs rates would you choose???

chevysquid

iTrader: (7)

You should also get some lower control arm relocation brackets.

carkook

Vetruck, that is a long list of mods. But some stuff I dont really agree with and wouldnt waste my money with. I only buy things when its a deal or if its really needed. All that steering box and shaft stuff I dont think I would have gone with, the stock is fine for me, all I would look into is different Tie Rods.

Whats the point of an MSD coil anyway?! Have you ever measured the Kilo volts needed to jump the gap of a plug under load? The most I have ever seen is around 20k.

Custom interior cost money and still weighs more then NO interior. And spending money on a v6? I wouldnt waste my time. For the money you spend on that I am willing to bet you could of come across an all aluminum v8 for way less..

Pretty much everything on that list besides the rear end and suspension mods doesnt make sence to me. Obviously your not gonna get your money you put into it when your counting everything down the the wiper blades and "high flow" air filters.

But how do those springs feel? Have you tracked it all? What were you able to compete with?

Campbell84'T/A

unless ur slammin that thing to the gound i dont think ur guna change the geometry of ur suspension enough to need relocation brackets, just make sure if you are lowering it you get as many adjustable componants as you can

carkook

Id say at least 3 inches of lowering... but I want too hear feedback on SPRING RATES

Guest

thats exactly what the last 11 V8's thought before they raced me.

When you get it together and run it in testing and don't get anywhere near my 1.07 g's and 60-0 in 102ft braking? you will understand why my little V6 would run circles around you on a road course lap after lap when I never have to slow down as much as you, thus, I never have to speed back up as much either. I'll eat my dounut and drink my coffee while I drive right by you sweating to turn your steering wheel and frantically working your pedals.....Not being sarcastic, I am giving you food for thought. You will come back in here a year later and study my list wishing you took better notes.

Smooth, consistant, and comfortable wins races

Guest

Oh yeah, A 50,000 volt coil will jump a bigger gap than a 20,000 volt coil. Bigger and hotter spark gap, better burn

grassyflats

que chido
i got one
wanna do the same
show me the money
so then shes for sale
91 RS 3.1 auto 700R4 3.23
white ttop

carkook

You right! But that isnt the goal for my car, this isnt a track only car I just want it too feel like one when I go cruising with my buddies 2300lb RWD imports. If I were going to build a road race 3rd gen I would of kept my v6 91. I have no doubt about your ability to build a gread handling car I would just much rather have a car that handles good but can still pull a 13 second 1/4.

And the whole Coil thing, maybe its a good idea if you have a built motor with insane compression. And yes it will jump a bigger gap, but what is the REQUIRED gap. If your engine is mostly stock really there is no point. Its only going to send what is required to reach ground. Around 3-4k at Idle and maybe 17k under load on a good maintained engine.

Your still missing my whole point on this thread, I want some feedback on Spring Rates...

Campbell84'T/A

what is the estimated weight and height of ur car (lowerd)

camaronewbie

I know, I know .... it's not spring rate info, but ...

As mentioned still don't see any mention of Sub Frame Connectors, and without those all the rest is a big waste of cash - your frame is going to twist the benefits of all the other parts away without SFC's

Campbell84'T/A

unless ur pullin some major torque with ur mild 350 i really wouldnt put too much thought into subframe connectors, if you want them, theyre on summitracing.com but i wouldnt worry too much about them

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Most on the boards would say that SFC's are not a mod, but a must. Check behind the drip rail of any coupe, for example, regardless of horsepower, and you're likely to see stress cracks caused by unibody flexing.

JamesC

RED_DRAGON_85

trust me, SFC's will make the car ride so much better and handle more predictably.
when you are cornering and hit a pothole with the outer wheel, you will be able to keep your line vs having the feeling that the car will jump off the road.

1988-305-tbi

sounds like something someone would say that doesn't have SFC or any clue on why you need them. they help out more than higher spring rates new shocks and bushings combined, i run 2 sets of sfc and the differnence is night and day, if the cra handled as poor as id did before the sfc install after the install, i would have sold the car seeing as it would be useless for handling

your idea of running 4 to 1 spring rates is right on, but you will need to reduce the rear bar size a bit 19-21mm

carkook

Alright! I will def. look into SFC's, as I have just become "A Friend of A Friend" of a great fabricator.

People say third gens way around 3500 pounds wtih a drive, Im pretty small (130 pounds) so that sounds about right. But with the LT1's Aluminum heads, me being tiny and some interior weight reduction Id say right around 3300 with me in it. I want the car to be 3 too 4 inches lower then stock.

What about wheels? I was thinking some ZR1's or C5 vette wheels.

camaronewbie

SFC's have nothing to do with weight, or power. They have to do with the fact that this is a unibody car. A 45 pound driver in a 4banger iron duke car with flat tires will need SFC's in this car - simply leaving the driveway will twist the frame enough to literally crack the body metal above the rear of the window.

RED_DRAGON_85

not to mention they give you SOOOOOOO many more options when jacking the car up

AM91Camaro_RS

1200lbs and 300lbs sounds a little stiff to me. you don't always want it as stiff as possible. that's not always the answer. Ever heard of the "soft spring, big bar" theory? You use the big sway bars to hold the car up and the soft springs to maintain grip. I would guess something more along the lines of 1050 or 1100 up front and 200 (maybe 250) in the back. But, thats just my guess as I have a little v6 too (which I haven't gotten into the suspension on, yet).

Campbell84'T/A

sway bars have nothing to do with holding the car up, the only thing sway bars control is how much weight is transferred from the outside to the inside tire on a turn. go with variable weight springs, as for the rate, i dont know

AM91Camaro_RS

ok....i should have had "holding the car up" in quotes... "holding it up", from body roll through a corner is what I was refering to.

Campbell84'T/A

im not disputing that youve never seen that happen but i dont agree with you, if the frame is intact then it shouldnt be a big problem, and it does have to do with power, when you hammer on it and the rear axle wants to twist where does all that twisting power go? ill help you, threw the control arms, which mount where? to the frame.

AM91Camaro_RS

SFCs are certainly needed. especially if you want to make the car handle. Also, LCA relocation brackets are needed with lowering (which the OP did mention). Even stock, sagging suspension could benefit from LCARBs.

Grey Goose

Vetruck knows what he is talking about. I happen to be one of the 11 V8 that he went around on the autocross course. I actually built this car to go after him and as he predicted he got me by about 3-4sec.. The amazing thing was that he and I were the fastest in our run group of which the majority were on R compounds (slicks) compared to out street tires.

He is one of those rare breeds that is as good under the car as he is behind a steering wheel. Don’t discount what he says…

Here is my combination, well the stuff you can buy anyway. My car puts down 160 RWHP and I have yet to have a 5 valve corolla, STI, SR20DET Silvia, B16 civic, or EVO that can come within a hundred feet of my bumper in the canyons I run in. When it comes down to it it’s equal parts driver and car.

Drivetrain
LO3 5.0Liter V8
Bowtie Overdrives Level IV 700R4 Transmission
2600 Torque Converter
Factory 1LE Aluminum Drive Shaft
Factory 10 Bolt w/3.42 Posi

Wheels & Tires
Wheels – Speedline Type 2310SC’s
Tires – Michelin Pilot Sports
Front - 18x8.5 / 255/40-18’s
Rear - 18x10.0 / 295/35-18’s
H&R Hubcentric Wheel Spacers

Steering & Suspension
Factory Quick Ratio Steering Box
Hotchkis Tie Rod Sleeves
Unbalanced Engineering Lower Control Arms w/Spherical Bearings
Unbalanced Engineering Panhard Rod w/Spherical Bearings
Global West Sub-Frame Connectors
Global West Lower Control Arm Relocation Brackets
Global West Traclink
Global West Linear Front Springs 800LB (Linear)
Global West Linear Rear Springs 160LB (Linear)
Global West Steering Brace
Del-A-Lum Lower Control Arm Bushings
Koni "Yellow" Adjustable Struts & Shocks
Billet Strut Mounts w/Spherical Bearings
Hotchkis Strut Tower Brace
Factory 1LE 36mm Front Sway Bar
Factory 1LE 24mm Rear Sway Bar.

Negative Acceleration
1LE Front Brakes
1LE Proportioning Valve
1LE Rear Disc Brakes
Earls Braided Brake Lines
Hawk Brake Pads

Exhaust
Magnaflow 3” Cat-Back w/Single Outlet
Carsound 3” Cat

The Project

iTrader: (6)

I already posted this on another thread.

It's the highlights from an article in Chevy High Performance Oct 99...

Article: Zig Zag Part II ()

Car: 91 Camaro Z28

Suspension parts: Hotchkis - stb, sfc, ph rod, lca, 1" lowering springs, 1" rear sway bar. Bilstein shocks. Stock 36mm front sway bar.

Alignment: Carter - positive 3 degrees...Camber - negative 1/4 to 3/4 degrees...Toe-in - 1/16"

Rims and tires: 17 x 9.5" front and rear TT II's with 275/40R-17 competition rubber (Yokohama A008RS II).

Results.......

91 Camaro 0.95 Gs (skidpad) 66.9 mph (Slalom)

99 Vette - .91 / 63.4
99 Ferrari 355 - .98 / 64.3
99 BMW 528s - .83 / 63.1
Lotus Esprit - .93 / 61
Acura NSX - .93 / 64

"The 0.95 skidpad digits are just a tick of the new Porsche Carrera 4, and the 66.9-mph Camaro number is 3 mph faster in the slalom."

Guest

thank you for the kind words Mike> Given the situatiion, I take nothing from you as a driver. If I gave you the keys to my car that day you would have run the same. Its not always about HP, Its about not having to slow down as much...thus...also not having to speed back up as much either. My corner speeds where higher and my braking points were later in the lightweight V6.

Most people have no idea what I can do to a chassis. I just had a client in my truck Tuesday as we easily took three cars on the outside lane of the Wier Canyon onramp without even really pushing it. He commented wow, this thing sticks, and that was in the rain. When then got to takings about cars and my NASCAR stuff so about 20 minutes later the subjest of drifting come up.... I looked at him and said, did you trust me? (With the big smile of course) I told him I will show him if he feels comfortable, I also said, don't worry I do not like to crash, you are safe. Then next corner in the rain I laid out my massive longbed into a full wheel lockout through the next left hander at about 35 mph. ...He now thinks I am a god.

oh the fun little things in life.

morrow

hahahaha vetruck thats awsome lol funny as hell, i love when people look at us like we are crazy lol

Guest

As I appreciate the fact that you are trying to pay me a compliment (thank you) I do not agree that I like people thinking I am crazy. I like a passenger to feel comfortable and I drive far slower than I normally do with a passenger than I drive daily by myself. this situation the acquintance (A captain in the City of Orange FD )was feeling comfortable riding in something he felt was very safe with proper maintenance, superior parts, and far better than normal safety equipment (harnesses, racing seats, and safety cage) and the corner I choose to show him the drift stunt was a rural industrial area with very good corner visibilty and width.

This still does not make what I did right or legal, but I made sure my passenger felt comfortable and not trapped in a situation he felt unsafe.

Morrow, you have PM'ed me a few questions about car performance so I would like to respond to you in the most responsible manor for irresponsible act of driving fast and breaking laws and most importantly endangering other drivers and passengers lives.

To drive at an accelerated rate above posted safe speeds REQUIRES a higher level of equipment as well as a higher level of experience. This generally requires $$$$$ for performance and safety. tires alone are the biggest expense. I ALWAYS buy the best quality tires for my vehicle based on what I intend its use. I have one stock vehicle that is luxury that came with 's' rated tires, that vehicle I run "h" rated performance tire yet going to Vegas recently from So Cal where most people will average 85 with an occational 90-95, I never breeched 80 in this car. I do not feel safe above that where most people would probably do 90 in it with the factory 's' tires. (Now back to my truck, that I run the very best tire I can get on it and they unfortunately cost me $1400 a set of 4- but they keep me safe, without them, I could not do what I do in that truck. That is just the tires, my list of modifications on this truck are as extensive as the Camaro list, maybe ever greater since alot of the truck parts are handbuilt including m entire front suspension including frame mount points and geometry.

what you are asking me about performance opinions on your car will require the application of adjustable parts. i have those listed in the sticky above labels "Ultimate 3rd gen Suspensions. Unfortunately, there is no way I can give you advice based on a limited budget. Please note, when I was in my 20's I was on a very limited budget myself and did alot in life without when all of my friends around me had privilage, I did not. For So Cal standards and my age, I am still below average in what I can afford- trust me i know budgets. most of what I do I make myself though years of knowledge and skills with my hands building most anything. All I can tell you is patience and hard work will pay off,, that and don't get married...ouch. :0

383fbod

iTrader: (2)

Best advice you've given on here!

Jeffs82TA

iTrader: (1)

Seems like a waste of money, sell the third gen and take what you would have spent on suspension upgrades and buy a C4 corvette with a LT1 it can match a heavily moded third gen f-body with just it's stock suspension probably even beat it in the corners ...

Guest

Ok 7100 so far without tax or shipping, lets just assume you don't pay for either of those so lets stay with your lowball offer.

You want to "handle with the best" as you ask. and you think you are going to that with stock componants with just polyurethane added to a few stock bushings? Not even close. Then you also think you can take that to a little track use? you would not make two laps without overheating issues in the motor, rearend, trans, clutch, brakes, what tires?

What's a $100 bushing kit going to get you? front A-arm bushings? Who's going to press them out and in? What about a tqarm and setting pinion? What do you plan to do for brakes? Brake lines? brake pads> wheel bearings? balljoints? tierods? what about your radiator handling the higher level of heat for performance driving? What about your clutch and flywheel costs- You think a stock clutch is going to control that heat and power?

Lets now go to the drivetrain, rear axle strength under g's stock axles bend, what rear carrier you plan on installing yourself to handle the power and also control the power in lateral set to tighten you off the corners and keep you competitive in cornering abilty,, Lug nuts and studs? you plan to run hard on those stock 12mm studs? How about your steel shaft vibrating the heck out of everything and breaking parts? you'll need to go Aluminum, new u-joints unless you want to throw your new shaft accross the hwy? is the rear housing in good shape-bearings? pinion & axle, seals? has the rear been serviced 9that costs a few bucks, remeber- every dollar adds up.

Steering box in good shape/ how about going to a quick ratio so you can steer more percise without lifting offf the steering wheel or lagging on a shft becasue your hands were busy overlapping in cornering? Steering shaft got plat, what about the rag joint replacement? column bearings? Idler arm condition? Here's a big one you over looked, what about your strut mounts> using those crappy stock ones?

Good tires which admittingly left out of the cost will set you back about 200$ a tire once a year plus you doing your own alignment> thats saying you own your Camber/caster gauge, turnplates, toeplates, etc- I would guess not so $100 for a 4 wheel alignment once a year unless you track the car and need to change it to track then back to street>what then? $100 a pop.

There is far more that goes into a suspension and chassis than what you have listed. FAR MORE, my brakes alone where over 5K. You could do them for cheaper, but at a cost of harmful unsprung weight added to an already high unsprung to sprung ratio car.

you need swaybars? Swaybar bushings? endlinks? you think the first parts you buy will work? You will often neew multiple purchases of parts to fine tune your car to handle with the best- factor that.

This is all assuming you put all this into the car and start with everything fresh- now what about future wear and breakage- clutch, brakepads, rotors, rearend, bearings, tires, ujoints, fluids.

Good headers and catback are going to run you with mufflers and cat over 1500, great will run you over $2000- what about heat coatings

Then lets get into airbox/aircleaner, tune up equipment (plugs, wires, cables- good ones cost $100+) coil, etc This is showing that you have not even gotten into engine performance assuming your LT1 is in perfect running condition with zero miles.

25K on a perfomance car is average. A Hundyai new will cost you more than that. 10K is a used jelopy that will get you to the grocery store and work with the best of commuter cars. Whats an LT1 if you can not stop or turn corners.

A GOOD "LIGHT" TRACK CAR THAT IS RELIABLE WILL COST YOU AT LEAST 25K

kirk_jarhead

Hey guys im new to this site any one know where i can get parts for my 89 formula 350 gs6 firebird i just recently bought it and im looking to get some new parts for the motor i need a good website for it .... if you know any place plz let me know ... thanks

rocko350

Thread jack much?

brutalform

Hi welcome to TGO.

Can you please post a new thread if you are asking a question? Its not considered polite when you hi jack a thread. Just click on the "new thread" icon at the top of the main page. Also you can use our search feature. Alot can be found by doing this. Thanks.

Dscott

Dean - wow thats quite the list.....we all know (at least I do) that you probably spent the largest part of that 25g's to get that last bit of that 1.07 Gs.....could you offer some guidance as to where your largest gains were made and maybe come up with a "package" that would work well for someone like myself who wants a good handling competent 80% street/back road carver 20% autocross/ roadrace track day car....maybe 7 -10G limit.....D

Guest

The biggest gain is how the car is weighted. So of course the light V6 is going to sacifice HP.
Since these are full size cars, I focused alot on polar weight reduction. Basically getting alot of the weight in between the wheelbase and chassis strength. The reduction of polar weight also helped reduce chassis flex.

Its really not all about what you buy, but more how you set it. That Scott as you kind of know with race cars is a person think to each individual vehicle based on its componants and weights to get balance.

If the question is "what are the main weaknesses in these cars?" then I will say first and foremost-
1) stock strut mounts suck. Replace them with solid bearing type mounts t eliminate strut shaft movement.
2) Reduce chassis flex- this is done many ways combined, not just SFC's, but also repositioning weight like stated above.
3) best shiocks money can buy
4) best tires money can buy

from there, it is a matter of unsprung weight reduction to increase the sprung weight ratio and improve chassis stabilty and grip over road imperfections. This costs $$$$$ for exotic lightweight parts.

Things like my drilled axles, carbon fiber driveshaft, aluminum wheel hubs, aluminum calipers and rotor hats, alum front bumper, reduction of heavy rear exhaust routing and addition of I-pipe muffler, lightweight gears and overall axle assembly weight reduction, lighter wheels and tires (Most people with larger tires do not always have favorable geometry to use a larger foorprint. Often they have a smaller contact patch through articulation without realizing it. Sometimes, just by usaing all of a smaller tire contact patch will be better than a heavier whell/tire combo. Just adds unnecessary unsprung weight and alot of times more scrub radius and poor lateral track front to rear.

I did alot of bracing, but what I also did that I never really showed anyone is I trimmed off every bracket that was belyond my range of use. I was starting to eliminate excess weight like the excess panhard adjustment braacket, the excess LCARB material, axle housing material around the panhard mount (factory area). These alxe assemblies are HEAVY and are in need of atttention. This is where a shorter Tqarm setup I think would pay off in unsprung weight, but you need to focus on acheveing this without brake wheelhop through higher rate rear springs, lower rear RC and shock valving.

I have a top secret idea I was developing for back here that I still sill not reveal on here. It is a version of the Mumford link design I floated out a few years back, but again, I am not giving out the real design. It has alot more to it than what I showed in that scketch.

Third gen chassis's have their biggset weakness on hard braking corner entry. Generally in aiding this will suffer corner exit. The braking flaw is a result of the TQarm rear and the strut front assembly and how the vehicle dynamics couple the tow together. Just think a little bit into anti dive on your front upper control arms on your racecar andf how the chassis motion will go through them under braking? well the strut assembly does a little of the same based on the length and angle of the strut.

I sould not say this because I will gget overwhelmed with PM's, but I also have a top secret front strut assembly design to counter this with drop spindles.

Sorry, i will not five away my designs so please do not ask.

SDIF

If...
you spring the car to track it, My track day car has 900lbs front and 300lbs rear with a dropped rear roll center from Unbalanced Engineering.
add sub frame connectors,
go to all heim joints and del a lum bushing
track alignment
add a set of track tires
etc.

It is no longer a good street machine.

I have a 91 G92 car which I ordered new. The car is 100% original with leather seats and Air. The car has only seen track days for the last 6 years. It is not quick or powerful with 180,000 miles on the stock 305, BUT it sticks and stops like a $60,000 car. It turns fast laps by being smooth and trustworthy.

The car is no fun to drive on the street. It is so noisy from road noise not rattles that I can not hear the radio or have a conversation and so stiff that it jumps on bumps.

As Dean said you will need additional cooling capacity. Driving in traffic at 100 Plus degrees with the air on is a cake walk for the cooling system compared to 25 min of WOT.

The rear posi unit will go out.

Clutches will be eaten.

t-5 syncros will go out if you are not good at heal and toe.

Expect to spend great sums on brake pads and rotors.

Get used to at home alignments etc.

Get ready for pad knock, wheel bearing failure and all the other things you never knew existed. Get good at indexing rotors and shimming brake calibers.

Be prepared to go through every nut and bolt after a track day until you know what the maintenance cycles are. Jam nut everything.

I am not trying to discourage you, but welcome you to the club. The cheapest parts are the most expensive in the long run. Buy the best you can afford and expect to have to make modifications.

You will never be happier or more proud of a car in your life. The C5 ZO6 crowd will be looking at your car.

When this car is set up correctly look out.
Its a world beater.

Guest

Something about knowing you and the way you talk, this cracked me up when I read it.

Just breakin the guy in easily with blunt facts....and yes mine did go out on me 3 times in 3 years on a street car with an Auburn "Pro" series to boot.

Unfortnately, this ain't a cheap game we play.

Dscott

post pics......!!

Guest

Actually Scott, you should see Cash's Videos of him chasing GT2 Porcshe's.
Very impressive car AND driver

SDIF

http://nasasepix.shutterfly.com/17045

Race car picture. Not track day car

SDIF

http://nasasepix.shutterfly.com/17142

camaro picture

TxTtopZ

Dont listen to this crap (sorry pal, but that is horrible info) which is why I am going to say, If you have an F body, any make, any model, get subframes. It makes a difference you can feel and appreciate. This is step #1 in making your thirdgen feel 20 years younger and 1000 lbs lighter. You will notice, just adding subframes did wonders, especially if you have a t-top or convertible.

maverick22

Bunch of meanies.