andresinibus

so i had my alignmet done today at meineke and i have a couple of questions just to be sure if theyre right or full of **** i go for the second one ok first they said there is no alignment needed on the back tires true or false? second they said they cant adjust the camber i was like ok wtf? third they said my caster couldnt get adjusted either cuz my ball joints are bad that it improved when they did the toe the caster actually moved to where is supposed to be here are my previous and new settings can somebody shine some light just replaced the cenerlink and tie rod ends
Before After
-1.1* -0.6* -0.5* for camber -1.1* -0.7* -0.4*
1.9* -1.0* 1.3* for caster 1.9* -0.1* 1.3*
2.22* -0.17* for toe 0.17* 0.14*
all in red before Caster went green as well as toe camber still red
Thanks for any input guys

NCC-2569

iTrader: (1)

My guys also mentioned that one of the things can't be adjusted.
The only thing that COULD be adjusted on the rear WOULD be the entire axle position IF you had an adjustable Panhard bar, so basically, yes, they're right. Nothing to be done there.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The rear is not adjustable. It's a solid axle.

Best specs for these cars (WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE MAKE THIS A STICKY???) for STREET use are something like:

Camber: -1° R, -0.5° L (both to -1 if roads in your area have no crown, more split if they have an unusually high crown)

Caster: as much POSITIVE as you can get, while at the same time having about a 0.5° split similar to camber; typically around +4.5° R, +4.0° L

Toe: around .030" - .050" inward

The factory specs are beyond stupid and look nothing at all like that; will result in tires wearing on the outside edge so fast you can almost see the rubber coming off as it drives down the road.

Your "after" settings are mostly OK, except that the low caster setting will result in a somewhat vague feeling of "center" and a tendency to wander.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Which would correct the thrust angle, if need be.

JamesC

NCC-2569

iTrader: (1)

But only with adjustable lower control arms, as I understand it. The Panhard bar only adjusts left to right positioning, not any angles.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Of course. Thanks for the clarification.

JamesC

Rickey_85TA

Just a curious question. Why set the caster different on each front wheel?

SlickTrackGod

Camber has absolutely nothing to do with the crown on the road- so no, your information should not be a sticky. There is already a tech fact page. I would recommend you study it before you start enforcing your inaccurate opinion on others.

https://www.thirdgen.org/suggested-front-end-alignment

SlickTrackGod

It has always been a fiarly standard practice to put aporx +0.5* more CASTER on the right side of the car in America with right hand roads.(not camber- camber should be close as possile to equal both sides or the car will pull funny under braking- this gets complex to explain, it deals with SAI and IA anlges)

Caster is basically "lead". Its the imaginary line the caster angle has draw down to the ground and where it hits the ground in front of the tire center. The more it leads, the more dominant the tire becomes to track straight under load. Most roads are built with the center median being highest and water drainage to the edges, thus as you drive the car will wander towards the right (downward). the extra bit of lead on the right side will keep the car tracking more straight on a crowned road.

Also note that more caster is favored in high speed driving. and for low speed hard performance driving. Less caster is favorable for docile parkinglot manuvers and will make low speed steering effort easier.

Rickey_85TA

The table in this link is messed up and doesn't make sense.

gt4373

This Is The Setting Range They Showed For My Car

SlickTrackGod

it does if you understand alignments ???


Street suggestion: Caster +4.0 left/ +4.5 right, Camber -0.5 left/ -0.5 right, Toe 3/32 in

...and so on

SlickTrackGod

These new machines are crap when it comes to customer service. The machine makes it easy for the tech to hand you a sheet and say there you go, the machine says its right...when its not. We live in a dummied down society where machines need to think for people.

Thank god I do my own alignments.

I had the ssame crap happen to me from a body sho a few years ago when my 80's FWD cadillac (the sugar caddy)was hit. I get it back and its pulling. i drveit right back into the shop and said fix it. The body shop sent it back to the alignment shop and I pick it up the next day and its worst, but this time with a printout sheet the same way showing all green numbers, I called my insurance rep, met him and had him drive it. I then pulled out my trump card (my NASCAR license) and explained to him why these alignment machines ate full of **** and that I want the cash to take it to a shop of MY CHOICE- I pocketed the money and took the car home and set the alignment myself- its been beautiful ever since where as the idiot alignment shop had two shots at it and both were wrong.

Rickey_85TA

Thanks for clearing that up.

I see what you wrote now, the data is jumbled up. Maybe my browser is not displaying it correctly.

rawley2

I cant read it also. It's all jumbled up. It not really a table. They used the space bar..

Wish I could read it.

NCC-2569

iTrader: (1)

I guess this is how it SHOULD read:

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

The following settings have already been mentioned. But I find this chart to be easiest to read. I would encourage anybody who is going to go in for an alignment to print out the picture and take it to the shop.



It's been mentioned before, but the red and green colors are flat out wrong. You really want to get a "red" alignment. Because that's the only way you'll get
a) a performance alignment
b) good tire wear

CAMBER: I don't know of any reason to ever want a positive number. A positive number means you're wearing out the outside edge of your tire even when you're driving in a straight line. Now what happens when you turn a corner? You really wear out your outside edge of your tire. Think of how a motorcycle tire turns in a corner. That's extreme negative camber.

CASTER: SlickTrackGod has already mentioned the benefits of higher Caster settings. The stock number in my manual for my year (1989) says 4.7° caster. Basically you want to max out the right front tire with as much caster as you can get. And then set the front driver side for half a degree less. So your caster numbers could look like one of these.

Left....Right
5.0.....5.5
4.8.....5.3
4.5.....5.0
4.1.....4.6

You want to set the front right tire first because then you won't have to go back later and adjust it again...... Let's say instead you set the left side at 4.0 first, but you could only get 4.2 on the right. Then you'd have to go back and adjust the left side again to get 3.7

Unfortunately you can't just look at the chart at the top of my post and say you want those exact numbers. Because ride heights will effect the range you can get. As will stock strut mounts vs aftermarket solid bearing mounts. Lowered cars will always have an easier time achieving higher caster numbers.

NCC-2569

iTrader: (1)

About this... how do you go about doing this by yourself?
Those shop machines are expensive as hell, so what equipment does one need to do this at home?

SlickTrackGod

Longacre sells basic C/C gauges that are magnetic hub clip-ons, or you can go a little more advanced for the digital wheel mount stuff like I have. Its a little costly to have, but as alot of people on here know I used to be a crew chief on a NASCAR Supertruck team so I have alot of advanced chassis setup equipment to my availiabitlity from those testing days on the hot tarmack. I used to have access to a complete scale rack I built on the team owners CNC milling machine that was completely portable to the track and setup on uneven inclined surfaces.

Basically you just need toeplates and a simple C/C gauge (Camber/Caster), but you really should learn bump plates and SAI/IA if you are really going to get into performance stuff. Learning how to use toe in bump (compression or dynamic form) to your aid is amazing for circletrack use- I mastered this and when I did we went straight to the winenrs circle.

NCC-2569

iTrader: (1)

Thanks

ASE doc

I am not completely ignorant to setting alignment but I am not getting how to read caster angle with any gauge that mounts to the wheel. How can the wheel mounted gauge see the angle between the strut mount and the ball joint or the invisible line between the lower ball joint and the spindle?

naf

iTrader: (7)

As the wheel is turned a set amount (with the steering wheel), the amount of angle change in respect to the chassis changes based on caster setting. With zero caster there would be no change in angle.

With chassis level with floor assume the floor is in the x-y plane. At zero caster the wheel would rotate about the z axis and two opposite places on the wheel will only change position within the x-y plane. As caster is added the rotation axis shifts and these same two places will begin to change position in both the x, y AND z plane.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

LOL Hey Dean, what is this screen name #4 now?

Sojer

I'm sure the reason why they didn't do the camber caster angle because its a special tool u need to do it. I sure I will never buy 1 because all the years I been doing them the only 3rd gen I did was mine and I would just bump the strut plate to me it in. To be real its not enough money in alignments it can take upto a hour for 10 bucks. I don't mind doing them because I did so many I can do them in my sleep. If u have bad ball joints that will cause your camber to be neg and they get paid more for replacing it and its safer for you. You can not get a alignment 100% str8 if you have loose parts.

andresinibus

ok so what's wrong with the alignment if once I turn the wheels little too much to the left or to the right it feels like if one of them just leans sideways n the tire squeals like hell its that the camber being bad I cant even do a u turn freaking annoying also found the passenger side strut mount all effed up so im replacing that one along with the ball joints, wheel bearings, rotors and breaks also them not telling me about the bad strut mount tells me 2 things one they only did the toe as for camber and caster they had to move the strut mount and they obviously didn't and second this dumb f#(ks don't kno what they're doing

ASE doc

Thank you for the description. That's what I was thinking. It was the only way I could imagine it working. Therefore, SAI and IA have everything to do with correct caster setting. If there is chassis misalignment or loose components, you will never get caster right. I have done a few alignments years ago, just couldn't remember how caster was set.

SlickTrackGod

In all seriousness it's like about #40. I lost count years ago.

ASEdoc- If you take a look at my picture I posted, you can see the blue markings (and red markings from a analog 20* gauge) for a digital 15* gauge. Those angle lines are exactly 15* steering angle reference lines . The shop floor has been gauged and I know it to be true level so I box the floor area with markings where I need to consitantly place the vehicle so the tire footprints are level side to side so the floor does not yeild an inaccurate vertical 0*

The gauge simply attaches to the wheel, you do one side at a time. You turn the wheel 15* right (making the wheel parallel with the 15* steering angle mark, you then zero out the site bubble and zero the digtal vertical degree reading. At this point you turn the steering wheel until that wheel point 15* now to the left. You next rezero the bubble first since the steering swing from right to left will make this reading change- once the bubble is zero'ed tot he left you then simply read the new vertical digital reading ....this is you caster reading for that wheel. this is a perfect method tried and true that racers have used for years at the track. you do not need the big sophisticated alignment rack, that rack simply helps lift the car off the ground so a technician does not have to climob under it. However, those fancy racks used the same basic concept of 4 searate wheel attachments and turnplates under the fronts- its basicaly done exactly the same on a fancy rack.

Want cheeap inexpensive turnplates to swivel your front tires on whithout rolling the car? Simply put down a 1 foot square piece of vinyl flooring- then sprinkle a little sand all over it and place a second square on top of it- now roll the front tires of the car onto them on each side- ala cheap turn plates These work better for a car that struggles to turn the wheels in static form becasue of improper large scrub radius- generally someone has put the wrong offset wheels onto the car without understanding how it affects steering - very common.

SlickTrackGod

Setting up the shop floor is simple using chaulk lines and Pythagoreans thoerem http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwBQ&dur=923

Example on attachment is in green. What I do not show is how I squared the entire shop floor first and place each vehicle wheel in this squared and trued box with individual wheel boxes marked on the floor. Roll the car into them in a forward motion and stop the car (never reverse the car into them)

Follow the chart drawing in this order to get the 15* angle mark on the floor- it's quite simple:
1) Green to square the tire centerline perpendicular.
2) Red next to build a perfect square
3) purple shows a perfect 45*- so know you just cut that down into 1/3 (i.e- 15-30-4) so along the square you mark 2-4-6 in 1/3 increments. The first 2' mark increment is now your blue line 15* angle. The red markings you see in the picture above were spray painted onto the floor perminantly because that is for the Supertruck racecars. The temprorary blue tape is where I do other people cars and then I remove it. I already have my overall sqaure vehicle platform reference, so it is easy to quickly shrink or enlarge both wheel base and track width of different vehicles being aligned.

SlickTrackGod

3rd gen f-bodies have an inherent defect in design that makes this no cureable. They all do it. The GM engineers designed these cars with front swivel steering boxes instead of rear swivel like Corvettes and a few others. The geometry of the front steer was not correct and the car looses Ackerman angles rather than the proper gaining of Ackerman. THe more you turn the wheel off center, the more the toe closes in rather then increasing for the sharper steering angle needed of the inside raduis wheel.

That toe-in of Ackerman makes a front suspension want to "climb" where as a toe-out situation makes it want to squat. When you drive the car in reverse with full lock steering- watch and the nose of the car will drop doing the opposite of what it does going forward

ASE doc

I agree that the 3rd gen F-body is not great for close quarter parking lot maneuvers. When GM designed this chassis, they set aside alot of what we might consider good table manners in favor of aggressive cornering capability. At this goal they were actually quite successful when you consider that this meager 20K sticker price vehicle, in factory trim, pulled close to 1G in the skid pad. With a few minor suspension upgrades and a slight step up in tires, it will pull past 1G in the skid pad.

The list of vehicles in all price ranges that can do this is very short. Granted, most of them probably have better ride quality than my IROC Z28, especially with its upgraded dampers and springs, but I didn't choose a car for my high performance project based on ride quality or how well it maneuvers in a parking lot. If you want the superior cornering and high speed maneuvering capability of the 3rd gen, you just have to live with going easy when turning around in close quarters.

andresinibus

The weird thing with all this is that before with my jacked up tie rod ends and center likn it never did that now that I got all new stuff its worst

SlickTrackGod

That is because everything flexed and made the tire footprint more forgiving. Now that it is tight and secure, the wheels track on the ground towrads eachother without bushing or balljoint deflection when turning sharp- thus making the suspension climb more apparent until the tire footprint skips and jerks the car.

andresinibus

Damn I think ama put my old parts back on then, it wasn't wearing my tires out just wanted everything new

ASE doc

But with your old parts, you'll have play in your steering when driving on the road.

Hubes

so should toe be in or out?

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

For most people toe should be in. This promotes keeping the car stable on the highway. Toe set at 0 results in the car wandering over every line in the road at speed (annoying and a two hands on the wheel way of driving) Toe out is handy for short autocross courses because it promotes a faster more immediate turn motion.

Stick with toe in.