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Hello everybody, I know I posted this in body, but wanted to get into the right category.
A few years ago I got into an incident where the rear driver side of my car got a little too touchy with a large curb at speed.
The result was a slightly torqued frame and some bent suspension parts. I replaced the pan hard bar, and the control arms, then I replaced the driver side axle, which was hard enough to track down for my rear end.
Years later, I finally get it to a shop to straighten my frame, and first they say I need an adjustable panhard bar. OK, so I had one sent to the shop.
Now they are telling me the AXLE is bent on the driver side once more. Now this seems unlikely to me, as the replacement was perfectly straight. They put it on the aligner and sent me this result.
So they can't put my SBCs on or get the rear lined up nicely.
My question firstly is:
1. Is it possible that I bent the axle by driving on it with the frame slightly bent?
2. Is it possible that the casing itself is causing the discrepancy, and is it possible for them to straighten this?
3. If all else fails, I feel I should probably just get a new rear end, this is turning into a big headache, and I just want to be able to drive again.
So which rear would y'all suggest as a reasonable upgrade along the lines of my G92 rear? Would a 4th gen rear be the logical step? Or something else.
Please let me know your thoughts, this snag has set me back and I'm itching to be moving forward again.
Yes it is possible for the axle housing to be bent; most commonly, it would be the brackets that are welded onto it, are what's bent. However it looks from the alignment specs like the axle tube is bent on that side. It's not the "axle", as in, the thing that rotates; it's the housing. Terminology can be a problem here.
No driving it afterwards wouldn't have done this. It is a result of the curb impact.
No the axle itself has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with SFCs. SFCs are concerned strictly with the CHASSIS; there doesn't even have to be an axle THERE for them to be installed. That is a totally different matter from the alignment issues, about which they are entirely correct: there's NO WAY to ever get the car to drive right with that bent that way.
It may be possible for the axle housing to be straightened. I can't guarantee that, but it might. No idea who might be able to do it and get it dead-on-***** right. Otherwise, it'll need an other one installed. You could theoretically move your gears over to it if you can get another 9-bolt.
Yes it is possible for the axle housing to be bent; most commonly, it would be the brackets that are welded onto it, are what's bent. However it looks from the alignment specs like the axle tube is bent on that side. It's not the "axle", as in, the thing that rotates; it's the housing. Terminology can be a problem here.
No driving it afterwards wouldn't have done this. It is a result of the curb impact.
No the axle itself has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with SFCs. SFCs are concerned strictly with the CHASSIS; there doesn't even have to be an axle THERE for them to be installed. That is a totally different matter from the alignment issues, about which they are entirely correct: there's NO WAY to ever get the car to drive right with that bent that way.
It may be possible for the axle housing to be straightened. I can't guarantee that, but it might. No idea who might be able to do it and get it dead-on-***** right. Otherwise, it'll need an other one installed. You could theoretically move your gears over to it if you can get another 9-bolt.
Would this be worth it? Or would it be smarter to upgrade to something else? I'd really not like to break the bank anymore, I already feel ripped off by this current shop for overshooting their estimate without even installing the connectors.
As far for swapping gears... is there any that wouldn't be compatible? I've never personally done a gear swap, are they normally quite complicated? Or could I read through a guide and get it pretty easy?
Last edited by Annihilate; 05-28-2020 at 01:48 PM.
Agreed housing looks bent with alignment printout above, probably cheapest thing would be a 4th gen swap I personally would do 99 up out of Z or T/A it should have a torsen posi unit, an auto would have 3.23 gears and stick should be 3.42' should be able to find complete with brakes for $250 or so it will require 4th gen wheels to accommodate the extra width
Yup the only way for the wheels to point in 2 different directions, both horizontally and vertically, is for the axle tubes to be pointing em that way.
Since yours seems to be the 9-bolt, then only 9-bolt stuff is compatible with it; and its guts are compatible only with 9-bolt housings. I suppose you could find a trashed 9-bolt or just one with crappy gears like 2.77, but a straight housing, and swap your innards into it. Some people don't have any trouble with things like that but others can't get it right. If you're asking that question in that way, I'd guess it's probably not something you'd have a guaranteed success at, although of course you might. But for a pretty much bulletproof solution you could do the 4th gen swap; look for a LS1 one (98-02) since it'll have a better posi. And you'll have to swap wheels because the 4th gen rears are about 1-5/8" longer on each side, which makes the wheels look real funny. Stock 4th gen or Vette wheels will work perfect on the rear, and then you'd need 1-3/4" or 2" spacers up front.
Last edited by sofakingdom; 05-28-2020 at 03:33 PM.
Reason: The dumb-a$$ forum software has decided it doesn't recognize extended ASCII characters anymore
And would I need the wheels immediately? Or could I deal with the weirdness? Is it a bolt right in situation? Or does some modification need to be done?
Thanks for all the help, this is a headache for sure.
Yes more than likely that has the Torsen. Price is about right too, in line with what people report from all over. Anything from $300 to $500 seems to be the norm depending on the usual local supply & demand balance.
It's about as close to a bolt-in as anything is that isn't quite.
Parking brake cables can be an issue, and brake hydraulic lines & fittings. Other than that, should slap right up in there.
Also, the brakes that are on it, require a different master cyl and proportioning valve to really be right. People go to all sorts of lengths over that. However, the ones form a disc front / drum rear setup are close enough, that they work pretty well. Only problem is that the rear discs don't need the delay for the fronts that the drum rears do, so if you just SUPER SUDDENLY STOMP on the brakes, you get a few milliseconds of excess rear brakes before the fronts catch up. I doubt most people would ever notice it except in a full race situation. Yours will probably "work" as they are but I'm not sure how well balanced they'd be. Of course you could do a LS1 brake swap on the front, and get a 98-02 MC & PV, and then it'd be as perfect as it could possibly be.
Yes you can probably use it with the wheel situation. As long as the tires don't rub on the fender lip or that sort of thing.
So my current setup had disc brakes all around. How will this affect a 4th gen rear? I saw some posts on the EBrake issues, is there a certain bracket and line that you may know off hand that I would need? A lot of the links I found were dead.
And would I need the wheels immediately? Or could I deal with the weirdness? Is it a bolt right in situation? Or does some modification need to be done?
Thanks for all the help, this is a headache for sure.
Disclaimer , I know nothing about that particular Ebay seller and have never done business with them .
Now , with that out of the way , I want to tell you to be VERY wary of buying such a component on line VS checking it out in person , having made that mistake and gotten burned myself . I bought a supposedly "low miles" rear end from an Ebay junkyard seller back in January only to discover in April when I installed it that it has not only a bent axle but a bent axle tube as well . In my case waiting for the weather to get warm enough to install it cost me the 60 day warranty it was sold with and so I got porked large . Of course , when you think about it , whats the most common form of accident based demise of these cars ? I'll bet it's the classic "foot too deep in the gas , spun it out into and over the curb" and , well , we all know the rest , and yet another F body ends up at the local "pick & pull" with the all too common bent rear end , , , , , THAT I FLIPPIN BOUGHT
So learn from ol Orangebird's mistake and buy something in person that you check over VERY carefully for being bent before handing over the Benjamins .....
I notice the seller you are looking at demands all engines , transmissions , and differentials be installed by an ASE certified shop or the warranty will be void , will you be using an ASE shop for the install ?
Disclaimer , I know nothing about that particular Ebay seller and have never done business with them .
Now , with that out of the way , I want to tell you to be VERY wary of buying such a component on line VS checking it out in person , having made that mistake and gotten burned myself . I bought a supposedly "low miles" rear end from an Ebay junkyard seller back in January only to discover in April when I installed it that it has not only a bent axle but a bent axle tube as well . In my case waiting for the weather to get warm enough to install it cost me the 60 day warranty it was sold with and so I got porked large . Of course , when you think about it , whats the most common form of accident based demise of these cars ? I'll bet it's the classic "foot too deep in the gas , spun it out into and over the curb" and , well , we all know the rest , and yet another F body ends up at the local "pick & pull" with the all too common bent rear end , , , , , THAT I FLIPPIN BOUGHT
So learn from ol Orangebird's mistake and buy something in person that you check over VERY carefully for being bent before handing over the Benjamins .....
I notice the seller you are looking at demands all engines , transmissions , and differentials be installed by an ASE certified shop or the warranty will be void , will you be using an ASE shop for the install ?
Unlikely, though my friend is gonna give me a hand and is certified and works at a certified shop, I'm done given random mechanics my cash. I feel I lost hard on my last try, this shop was supposed to fix all issues and put on SFCs for a great price. Now two of those things aren't done and I owe them more than the quote.
I just wanna drive my car man lmao.
I might be able to get another 9 bolt, which would honestly be ideal for me. There are a few im looking at, and I found another 4th gen rear end closer to me.
Yes, $250 is good - you keep everything original. No issues with brakes, wheel offsets, parking brake, etc, etc, etc.
$1000 for shop rebuild is decent, especially since I know their reputation, and includes straightening is a great price.
The prob with the 9bolt is the cones always wear. For a grand, I'd do it and it gives you a couple years for sure.
The NEW thinking is to get rid of the cones and go with a Torsen. Search around under the Trans sub forum for more infro. This is a bullet-proof option for your plans for the car. The regular rebuild is a good deal, is local (somewhat), and gets you back and running. But the cones will wear over years. Either way, these guys can do a good job for you, and any warranty issues are fairly local to you. The Torsen will increase the cost by a couple hundred. Again ask, these guys can do it. You do need the right Torsen unit from Australia, though. Search the trans sub forum.
Good Luck.
Yes, $250 is good - you keep everything original. No issues with brakes, wheel offsets, parking brake, etc, etc, etc.
$1000 for shop rebuild is decent, especially since I know their reputation, and includes straightening is a great price.
The prob with the 9bolt is the cones always wear. For a grand, I'd do it and it gives you a couple years for sure.
The NEW thinking is to get rid of the cones and go with a Torsen. Search around under the Trans sub forum for more infro. This is a bullet-proof option for your plans for the car. The regular rebuild is a good deal, is local (somewhat), and gets you back and running. But the cones will wear over years. Either way, these guys can do a good job for you, and any warranty issues are fairly local to you. The Torsen will increase the cost by a couple hundred. Again ask, these guys can do it. You do need the right Torsen unit from Australia, though. Search the trans sub forum.
Good Luck.
I appreciate it, always looking for fresh ideas... I was considering swapping out the fuel tank with an aeromotive one, so I can get a new pump and have the tank baffled. I figure the pumps go bad often, and the car is 32 years old, might as well since the rear end is out...
Id probably put the couple extra from the Torsen into the fuel tank instead... Would this be a advisable idea for an upgrade? Is there anything else I should do or look at while the rear is out?
Im planning on doing the LS/T56 swap this fall/winter, and getting it painted next year instead...
Most of us swap the plastic 4th Gen tank in with a new pump. Again, search the LSX sub forum for 4th Gen tank. No need for baffle as the pump sits in a canister. You could do this after the rear. Getting the old tank out is painful - but if you're going to junk it, then beat/bend on it to remove. The plastic 4th Gen tank has a flexible filler hose so install is painless with the rear in. You have more reading to do and become expert on the search function.
LS swap should really have the Torsen and with manual - my opinion. 9bolt w/Torsen should hold 450 rwhp on the street. If a bigger build, then a bigger rear. Talk with DTS about cost before deciding anything. LS Swaps aren't cheap. If you're balking on strengthening the rear-end maybe re-think about a longer time frame. No shame in taking the time to build the funds to do it right! As stated, the cones will wear out, and you'll be rebuilding the stocker w/LS for sure.
My advice is always to keep the car running as much as possible, or you could lose interest, get lost in the build, etc. Keep enjoying the car and keep down time to a minimum. That said, get the rear fixed (according to your future build) and enjoy the car as you replenish your bank account. Do the tank as part of the LS swap.
You can't drive the car as is, and you're not ready to do an LSX swap. So get it running and enjoy it.
Most of us swap the plastic 4th Gen tank in with a new pump. Again, search the LSX sub forum for 4th Gen tank. No need for baffle as the pump sits in a canister. You could do this after the rear. Getting the old tank out is painful - but if you're going to junk it, then beat/bend on it to remove. The plastic 4th Gen tank has a flexible filler hose so install is painless with the rear in. You have more reading to do and become expert on the search function.
LS swap should really have the Torsen and with manual - my opinion. 9bolt w/Torsen should hold 450 rwhp on the street. If a bigger build, then a bigger rear. Talk with DTS about cost before deciding anything. LS Swaps aren't cheap. If you're balking on strengthening the rear-end maybe re-think about a longer time frame. No shame in taking the time to build the funds to do it right! As stated, the cones will wear out, and you'll be rebuilding the stocker w/LS for sure.
My advice is always to keep the car running as much as possible, or you could lose interest, get lost in the build, etc. Keep enjoying the car and keep down time to a minimum. That said, get the rear fixed (according to your future build) and enjoy the car as you replenish your bank account. Do the tank as part of the LS swap.
You can't drive the car as is, and you're not ready to do an LSX swap. So get it running and enjoy it.
This is going to sound strange, but hear me out. I worked at Hunter Engineering, (that printout is from a Hunter system) and I had tested heaps of solid axle cars. A good majority of them read with a degree of camber in the rear on one side or the other. I never asked the engineer (my boss) why that was the case. I had run my Camaro through several alignment tests, and found something similar to what you're seeing. Everything was fine on my car. In fact, I had swapped rear ends while I was working there and both rears showed the same thing. Could be how the rolling comp figures how the car is sitting on the rack. C-clip axles float around a bit, and that may cause some issues during the comp process. I seriously wouldn't worry unless you're having bearing issues.
This is going to sound strange, but hear me out. I worked at Hunter Engineering, (that printout is from a Hunter system) and I had tested heaps of solid axle cars. A good majority of them read with a degree of camber in the rear on one side or the other. I never asked the engineer (my boss) why that was the case. I had run my Camaro through several alignment tests, and found something similar to what you're seeing. Everything was fine on my car. In fact, I had swapped rear ends while I was working there and both rears showed the same thing. Could be how the rolling comp figures how the car is sitting on the rack. C-clip axles float around a bit, and that may cause some issues during the comp process. I seriously wouldn't worry unless you're having bearing issues.
If I am not mistaken, the 9 bolts don't use C-Clips...
Regardless, I am gonna have these guys at DTS check it out, I think I am ordering a Torsen unit to get installed as well.
Well I purchased an aluminum driveshaft, which took care of a lot of the vibrations. I also purchased a TORQUE LOCK M78 28 SPL LSD for my 9 bolt.
I was going to take the rear out, and have it straightened along with getting the LSD installed, however a member here is selling me his 9 bolt, which happens to have the 3.45 gears.
So ideally I was gonna keep driving it while having the LSD installed in the other rear. However the sale is taking longer than planned, and I have been having my butt kicked by a code 33.
So right now I am trying to diagnose that to the best of my ability. Which apparently isnt great at the moment.
I love the car more and more when I see it. I want to give her a good life. As soon as I get this rear, maybe even this weekend, I'll have to see if hes dropped it yet. Plans will be moving a bit quicker as to determining if I actually have any other structural damage.
Alright, so I am finally having my rear end rebuilt, only took me a whole year. Just dropped it off at a shop yesterday. Ended up hunting down a donor housing, and having the Torsen unit thrown in, as well as a complete rebuild of all seals and bearings. Also invested in the TA Performance Girdle for good measure.
At this point I have also thrown cash at a various amount of suspension upgrades, and I am putting in a new fuel pump into my current gas tank since the rear is already out.
I have a guy lined up to put in my new exhaust as well as the subframe connectors for a great price, but I don't want anything going amiss if the frame is damaged. The shop I took it too originally had me order an adjustable panhard bar to correct the axle being off. Will this adjustable bar throw off any further alignment or the reading on the frame?
I need new tires, so I was going to take it to Belle Tire first... Will they be able to give me the lowdown on my frame situation once they stick it on their alignment machine? Or would I need to take it to a frame shop to get an accurate answer?
A tire shop won't be able to tell you very much about the frame, unless it's SO fornicated that it won't align. A frame shop would be the place to go for definitive info about that. THey have all the right fixtures, measurements, etc. to measure it, and pull it back straight if it's efffed.
This is massively frustrating to come in to at this point and read. It's a combination of lack of communication, lack of understanding and possibly other issues that has combined into turning this into something bigger and more expensive then it has to be. I have no idea what you told the original shop, if they were just ****wits or competent or something in between and how much of it was trying to deal with you and your inexperience, at this point it doesn't matter, here it is. I hope this helps and maybe still saves you money in the long run.
I don't know why your shop was doing an alignment before installing subframe connectors, the chassis can be significantly bent and it still can usually be aligned correctly. There are factory chassis specs that a good body, frame or chassis shop could use to check how straight your chassis/body is and could use a frame machine to straighten, but even the factory spec for it brand new has tolerances in the 3/16-1/4" range (I remember off the top of my head that this is the tolerance for the front and rear axle center location). This is the reason why most competent shops doing SFC connector installs will typically lift the car properly loaded (it needs to be supporting it's weight on it's suspension) and position the SFC and see if they line up. The factory specs have enough tolerance in them that they may not, but if they do you can be reasonably certain that it's OK. By the time the car is bent enough to get it out of spec the mount points for the SFC's won't line up. The typical tire/alignment shop will have no way of telling you if anything affecting the SFC location is actually bent.
Your axle housing and alignment, wow there's a can of worms:
when a car is set up to be aligned there is a procedure to get things "neutral" to get a proper alignment. Some parts even if in good shape have enough slop in them that they will significantly affect alignment numbers and need to be accounted for. This is different for solid rear axle setups than IRS, and most techs don't know or are just too lazy to do this right. That in itself could have resulted in your numbers, or in the situation that someone posted where they tried 2 different axles and got similar numbers. It may have been fine, it may have been off, unless the tech was good and did his job correctly you don't know.
If it's bent it could be EITHER the axle itself or the axle housing, or even something like a bent wheel, the way that the wheels got torqued.... The way to check it is to mark the offending tire and then reposition it so that a different part of the tire is contacting the pad (there are more sophisticated ways with modern equipment, but this guarantees what you're seeing). I see this done all the time with front tires to eliminate any runout in the wheels/tires, but it's rare to see an alignment shop do this with a RWD car (it's a hassle that takes time). Rotating the axle/brake/tire assembly will tell you if some part of that is the problem or if you need to look at the axle/suspension linkage (if it's a solid rear axle and they are not equal and opposite on both sides then you can usually rule out the suspension). Axle shafts ARE STRONG ENOUGH to bend the housing if they're bent. I'm trying to find a video of the 9 bolt in my '87 Formula 350 that was bent and while it turned you can see it causing the whole axle housing bend and corkscrew, it was really pretty wild.
If you're really serious about the LS swap you might want to skip spending the money on fixing the 9 bolt or on a 4th gen axle swap They only really make sense for getting it back on the road and driving it for now. The 9 bolt that I mentioned with the bent and twisted axle shaft was in a pretty close to stock, '87 350 TPI car, and it never hit anything (well not when I owned it or between when the axle was straight and bent/twisted). It happened on the dragstrip with it having a set of old-school BFG Drag Radials on the back of it. My point is that if you plan on putting more HP under the hood and it's more than something that you just tool around on the streets in then you should seriously consider putting something stronger in there and be done with it. For a while, my "toy/race car" was a lightly modded 4th gen (but heavy with a 6 speed which hits the drivetrain harder than an auto, and eventually it got a pretty big shot of N2O) that I had 2 extra axle housings for, had a source for cheap gears ($140 for a set new) and could set up the gears by myself. I always kept a spare housing set up so when I blew up the gears I could be back on the road in an hour. Well, I ended up swapping 8 times till the carnage destroyed 2 of the posi carriers so I didn't have enough parts to set up a spare and eventually sold the car. To give you some idea my current project is still 305 powered and it already has a built-up Moser 9".
All that said, unless you have a good reason to suspect that your chassis is bent, take it to a shop that knows how to install the SFC's and just have it done. If you suspect that the chassis is bent then take it to a body/chassis shop that is good with a frame machine and have it checked out first. Once the SFC's are installed I'd likely see how it drives like it is and just leave whatever is going on with the axle unless it affects handling or chews up tires till you're ready to upgrade. If you insist on beefing up the 9 bolt and can confirm the hosing is bent then that same chassis or similar shop should be able to straighten it with the frame machine, a press, or even a large rosebud torch (there are ways to do it with any of those, there is no real advantage with one over the other in the hands of someone skilled). Yes, the more modern Australian center section is a good upgrade (or a spool depending on the use), a long time ago I posted detailed instructions on how to rebuild the cone style and even how to get some extra life out of one that is worn out, but eventually, it will wear out to the point you can't re-set it. Finally, I would add a set of custom Moser axles to the housing that will be less likely to twist/bend (my bent one was so twisted/bent that I couldn't get it back out of the housing). Otherwise, skip it entirely and get an aftermarket rear axle housing assembly. I don't see the point but if you really wanted to go 4th gen I have one that I know has straight axles but it needs gears/posi that I'll sell you cheap if you're close enough.
05-27-2020, 09:26 PM
THAT I FLIPPIN BOUGHT 
