lavamadness

Sorry this is so long, but it's a problem I've been having since I got the car a couple of months ago. Everyone seems to think I'm on crack, but it's really bugging me, and I need to get this fixed.

When driving around town, if there is anything resembling a bump in the road, if feels like the front end of my car just goes all over the place. I've got stock wheels with 245s all around. I know there will be pulling because of the wide tires, but this is just unnerving. It seems like it just suddenly jumps to the left or right. In traffic I'm afraid it could end up in the other lane. On the highway, I've never noticed a problem. I'm assuming the high speed wandering that I've read about on this board is caused by something different than what is causing my problem?

I took it to the shop and the guy spend a good chunk of an hour going over it. He said the idler arm was "slightly worn", so that might contribute to it, but other than that he said he couldn't see anything wrong. So I got that fixed, and it fixed the problem for a bit. It would pull on the grooves and bumps in the road, but it was controllable, not this jumping around over the place. I'm not sure how long that lasted though (a week or so?) but now it's wandering all over the place again.

What could have happened that would have caused the problem to come back? I'm going to check the center link this weekend, but the guy at that shop couldn't find any other problems, so I'm not too optimistic that that is it. Oh, and the front struts are new.

From what I've gathered from the archives, it could be my tires being too worn. Which could be, but I want to rule out some of the cheaper possibilities first. I can't notice any abnormal wear on the tires I do have.

I've heard adjusting the steering box, and checking the "rag joint", but I haven't noticed any play in the steering... Though when it does wander, it doesn't pull the steering wheel or anything. It just seems to jump over. But I'm going to look into these this weekend.

Another option is due to chassis flex. I've heard that a wonder bar and an STB helps. (Would SFCs help out too?) I do want to get these items sometime down the road, but I want to get it running properly in stock trim before I start upgrading things. And this can't be how it handled right off the showroom floor.

If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions or anything I'd love to hear it. I'd rather have too much information than not enough.

grafx

I have the same problem with mine. It's a 91 Camaro with T's also. My car would wander all over the place, I even did the same thing by taking it into some one to have them check it out, and they couldn't find anything wrong. This was done like 8 months ago when I first purchased the car. I replaced the stock struts and shocks and it seemed to improve but only for a little bit. So then I replaced the idler arm and center link just recently and the steering was a lot tighter and seemed to hold the road much better but it only lasted a little bit and I believe the reason for it is that when you first install them they have not yet broken in yet so you get that tight feeling, once they do they have the ability to move around better.

I plan on installing sub-frame connectors and a wonder bar shortly and am hoping that it will make my car feel tighter. But T-top cars do suffer from a lot of chassie flex but I don't know if that is what caused it to bounce around like it does.

brharris27370

The subframe connectors and wonderbar probably won't help. My 91 Convertible does the same thing. I checked the front and found the idler arm to be worn so I replaced. Same problem I also added the SFC not for that problem but for future plans and still the same problem. Added the wonderbar and still the same problem. I have 2 things left to try but may not get around to it until I have the motor pulled for swap. I am going to unbolt my steering box from the frame and see if the frame was cracked from stress of not having a wonderbar and if it isn't cracked then I will change the steering box. Improper toe on the alignment can also cause strange behavior and I haven't had mine checked yet. Just some FYI's for you. I just wish it's steering felt as tight as my 99TA.

lavamadness

Oh, another thing I forgot to mention was that when I turn a hard right, the tire on the passenger side rubs the back of the fender well (where the plastic cover is) a bit. Could something be out of place causing the problem? If so what? When I look at the two front wheel, it looks like the passenger one is set back a bit. But I haven't actually measured to know for sure.

5.7lformula

Mine did the same thing in right turns. Turns out the Idler arm was SHOT. Whoever put the old one on didnt put in the grease tit and just wore out. I replaced that and its like day and night handling difference. And no more wandering.



Jesse

lavamadness

My idler arm is new. It was installed a couple of weeks ago. I checked it out last night and everything was pretty tight. But I'm told the center link is supposed to be parallel with the ground right? Well I checked that too... and the point on the center link where the idler arm is attached is about a half inch lower than the point on the center link where the pitman arm attaches.

Am I correct in thinking this is wrong?

If so, would this cause the wandering?

It wandered before the idler arm was installed, but if the installed the new one in the same position as the old one, and the old one was in the wrong position, then the wandering would still be there.

If I take it back to the shop that did the idler arm, I want to be able to tell them it is wrong and get them to fix it right... not ask if it is right or wrong.

Buck268

Man, thats just like my car. When I first got it, real bad, like you are saying. So me and my dad check it out. After a lot of research and going to auto parts stores, looking at parts, and talking with ppl their, we decided it had to be the centerlink, and the idler arm (we knew the idle arm was bad..visual). So we replace both, and then throughly grease all the stuff up. OK, great! tracking good, not wandering problems. Right before I get new tires, it starts to wander slightly again. New tires. Get front end alignment. Guy at shop says ball joints bad. Uh Oh. Now I am all over. Driving is a chore, damn I need to fix this....*shakes fist at ball joints*
Hope that helps.

BTW, any pointers on replacing ball joints your self (way to damned expesinsive to pay some1 to do it!)

ploegi

The center link should be parrellel to the ground. If it is not, you will experience a rather significant amount of "bump steer". If you have recently had work done on your car, take it back. If not, take it to a reputable alignment shop of your choice.

Another area of possible "slop" in the steering is the "universal Joint" at the top of the intermediate shaft. I really dislike that design..... Oh well.

Have fun.

lavamadness

Just found out some more stuff today that I thought I'd share with anyone who is interested.

Was talking with a shop today about the problem, and the guy noticed pretty quickly that the passenger side front wheel was back a bit further than the drivers side. He was saying your basic $50 alignment job pretty much just adjusts the toe. He said I should check the caster to see if it was out of whack or not (probably have to pay for another alignment for that since I didn't get any values from the last time ) He said it could be from hitting a curb hard, bending a control arm maybe. If the caster is out of whack, I'm not sure what would be needed to fix the problem.

Negative caster caused the wheel to follow the contours of the road, and positive caster causes the wheel to go straight. The right wheel is supposed to have a bit more positive caster than the left to offset the effects of the crown of the roads.

Anywho.. I didn't get anything done with it yet. I'm pressed for cash, and the guy was booked for the day anyway, so I don't know if this is the problem or not. But I thought I'd share this with everyone. It might be of some help to you.

Buck268

Thats really interesting. I should check that out on mine also

RSRagtop

Which ever shop said a $50 alignment is the for the toe is a place I would never go again. Find a place that has fixed price for the job, no matter how long its takes. I just had mine done for $45, they adjusted everything, and aligned it 3 times before THEY were satisfied, even stayed past closing time. BTW, my car used to be a handful on uneven roads too, replacing the center link cured that problem for me.

lavamadness

From what the guy was saying, the $50 alignment jobs usually just adjust what can be adjusted. I got the impression from him that caster wasn't something that could be adjusted on our cars (without replace parts that is), so your basic alignment job wouldn't change it. Though he did say it should tell you if the caster was out of whack.

RSRagtop

Caster/Camber and Toe In/Out should all be adjustible from the factory. The struts have to be loosened up to adjust everything. My caster was way off on the passenger side wheel ( my car has been hit in the front ), my shop took out as much as they could, they even said after 3 hours they couldn't adjust it any further, but the car drives great. I still think you should find another shop. Also beware of getting an alignment at someplace like Wal Mart or KMart or anyplace like that even if they are the cheapest place in town, they use inferior equipment and you'll be sorry. My dad had his car aligned at Wal Mart and it wore the tires down to the belts in 2 months. I went to the local Mieneke and they did a great job, in my town the place is run by people who actually like cars.

lavamadness

I've got an appointment with a proper alignment/frame shop tomorrow morning. ( West Coast Alignment in Vancouver... anyone have any experience with them? )

mrr23

ball joints come out by hitting them with a big hammer. then what i do to install the new ones, is to put a bottle jack under the new ball joint. jack it up some, then hit the control arm and the ball joint will go in. you may need to hit it a couple of times then jack up again. by doing it theis way, the spring helps you "press" the ball joint in.

AntiVTEC

Ahh yes, the 3rd genners big problem, wandering. Well, first thing i will ask is if any of you have play in the steering wheel. Get rid of all that play, i mean every single bit of it. If any of you have driven a 4th gen (i see one of you have with the 99ta) there is absolutly no play. 4th gens wander too but are much easier to control since whatever direction the steering wheel is pointing, you're garaunteed thats the direction the tires will be pointing.

The centerlink and the idle arms are good places to start lookin for steering play. Have someone turn the wheel back and forth while you look for areas of play. Also, theres one overlooked area to look at. If you remove the cover of the steering column (the one that anchors to the power steering pump line) you'll see a joint there. Have someone again steer back and forth and observe it. If yours is like how mine was, you'll see that it can cause some major play in the steering. I went ahead and slapped some JB Weld on it and wuttayaknow! just like a 4th gen.

lavamadness

What should the proper alignment settings be for a 1989 Formula 350 with WS6 suspension (if that matters)?

mrr23

camber 0 +/- 0.50
caster 5 +/- 1.00
total toe 0.28 +/- .06

lavamadness

Well, I got another alignment done and I think it fixed the problem. Camber for my car I is supposed to be 0.2, and it was -0.1 for both wheels. The guy said that that would cause it to wander a bit, but that giving it more positive camber would hurt handling. Well.. I went with more positive camber and it behaves much better on the roads now. It's not gone completely, but I'm satisfied that what's left is due to the tires and some play in the steering wheel. Didn't notice any loss of handling on corners, but then, I don't race or anything either, so it's not as important.

Just so you guys know, my old camber (-0.1) was still within factory specs. So I would think an alignment shop wouldn't mention it unless they were looking for a problem.

Also, I did learn another thing. Get a print out of the alignment results. May seem obvious to some, but if I had gotten it from the first place, the second place wouldn't have needed to do it again to get the numbers.

Andys92RS

Most likely it's the center link. I had a very similar problem on the 83 I had. The problem may have temporarily gone away because whenthe idler arm was changed, he tightened down the joit to the center link. Jack the car up, have someone hold one wheel, while you move the other back and fourth, you may find a littler movement. It' may seem slight, but with weight on it, that little bit becomes alot.
GOOD LUCK

paulo57509

My '87 IROC wanders too, but I don't find it too alarming. It gets into the ruts in the pavement at the stoplights and wiggles a bit.

I too have the rubbing tire on the passenger side when at full lock to make a right turn and the wheel appears to be set back in the wheel well a bit too.

Alignment shops says I'm within specs (who you gonna believe?), However, I'm not tearing up tires.

When I replaced the idler arm, the manual does state to check the "flatness" of the relay rod (center link).

Someone else posted a while back that worn ball joints might be the cause. Replacement of ball joints with a hammer is a good way of producing control arm failure in the future. The arm cracks and the car gets an instant lowering job. It's preferable to press them out and in rather than beat them. At least in my experience.

I guess the two things that need to be verified is 1) nothing is worn out, 2) everything is straight.

lavamadness

Just thought I'd mention that I have finally got the wandering issue fixed, and it did turn out to be the alignment. After so much pain having people check things out, alignments and having to tell them to make sure to get it as close to factory spec as they can, and giving me a print off so I could see how they did, this is what worked.

Caster: 4.96 / 5.44
Camber: -0.12 / -0.20
Toe: 0 / 0

Comparing it to previous alignment reports, it seems just about all the other times, the camber was positive on at least one of the wheels. Still within spec (-0.2 to 0.8). Could that have been it?