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Me and my dad put together the new centre link, tie rod ends etc yesterday. Got it all bolted up no problem.....then when I was looking at it I thought hang on. That doesn't look right.
I think we just blew through it too quick and the centre link is facing the wrong way so the inner tie rods are on the outside now instead of at the back!
I've immediately took the nuts off the tie rod ends, idler arm and pitman arm to drop it all down and simply turn it around but can I hell get anything to separate now. I'm guessing all the new tapers are really in there already!
I've pulled the wheels lock to lock and everything is fine and moves nicely so my question is can I just leave it as it is? Or will the shop that needs to do the alignment get really weird numbers on their laser machine???
It will bug me though.... I might have to buy a ball joint separator kit to try and pop them free properly instead of whacking them with a metal bar and hammer.
Get a nut the same size as the one that holds them together. Put it on the threads until the end of the stud almost comes through; maybe one thread from emerging. Then you can use your BFH safely. Do that at the Pitman arm and the outer rod ends; unbolt the idler arm from the chassis; then once it's all laying on the ground, it'll be MUCH easier and safer to finish disassembling, with less risk of damaging anything.
It won't affect "alignment", as such; but it WILL give you weird "bump steer" effects. I sure wouldn't leave it like that. The location of the rod end ball is supposed to be exactly in line with a line through the control arm bolts, and it won't be with the ball that far out in front. That line will miss the ball pivot by most of an inch with it like that.
I see a Nylock on that one rod end. That'd be a death trap: I wouldn't even get in that car, let alone ride in it, and sure as hell wouldn't drive it, with those. Should be a castle nut with a cotter pin.
Get a nut the same size as the one that holds them together. Put it on the threads until the end of the stud almost comes through; maybe one thread from emerging. Then you can use your BFH safely. Do that at the Pitman arm and the outer rod ends; unbolt the idler arm from the chassis; then once it's all laying on the ground, it'll be MUCH easier and safer to finish disassembling, with less risk of damaging anything.
It won't affect "alignment", as such; but it WILL give you weird "bump steer" effects. I sure wouldn't leave it like that. The location of the rod end ball is supposed to be exactly in line with a line through the control arm bolts, and it won't be with the ball that far out in front. That line will miss the ball pivot by most of an inch with it like that.
I see a Nylock on that one rod end. That'd be a death trap: I wouldn't even get in that car, let alone ride in it, and sure as hell wouldn't drive it, with those. Should be a castle nut with a cotter pin.
Yeah I've already decided I'm taking it all off and swapping it around so it's right. Got a proper ball joint splitter on the way so I can hopefully just pop them free without risking damage
As for the tie rod ends I was surprised these came with a nylon locking nut and not the usual castle nut. Even though the other parts from the same supplier have Castle nuts and cotter pins?
I see a Nylock on that one rod end. That'd be a death trap: I wouldn't even get in that car, let alone ride in it, and sure as hell wouldn't drive it, with those. Should be a castle nut with a cotter pin.
good catch and interesting point. now you make me want to go look and see what I did with my BMW. Thinking they are nylock type nuts holding on some of the control arms. thanks for the warning!
EDIT: Also, I don't think Factory used cotter pins on steering components.
Last edited by LiquidBlue; 08-30-2021 at 05:41 PM.
good catch and interesting point. now you make me want to go look and see what I did with my BMW. Thinking they are nylock type nuts holding on some of the control arms. thanks for the warning!
EDIT: Also, I don't think Factory used cotter pins on steering components.
They most certainly did. Thats the only way to prevent the nut from spinning off. No replacement tie rod or front suspension piece for these cars will come with a nylon lock.
...... I don't think Factory used cotter pins on steering components.
LiquidBlue, your mistaken, I can assure you that that the factory did, in fact, use cotter pins on the tie rods & such.......
Edited to add; while the factory did use cotter pins, what they didn't install was grease fittings on the various steering parts, or the driveshaft U joints.
Last edited by OrangeBird; 08-30-2021 at 06:52 PM.
No replacement tie rod or front suspension piece for these cars will come with a nylon lock.
I recently puchased some Pro-Forged, AND Moog tie rods. They BOTH came with assorted cotter pin/castle nuts and lock nuts. Almost as if it was up to you to choose. NO WAY I'd EVER use nylocks. Holy cow that sounds sketchy!!!!
I'm still running factory tie-rods and center link, idler, pitman. no cotter pins. thought it was odd, then I saw this ultra low mile camaro pop up on BoT. it was 1400 miles. Noticed the exact same think, even same nuts on the center link. They are very distinct.
Yeah I've already decided I'm taking it all off and swapping it around so it's right. Got a proper ball joint splitter on the way so I can hopefully just pop them free without risking damage
I use a tool called a pitman arm puller. It'll pop those joints out with no damage. Available off the shelf at any Autozone. Works like a champ.
Use a castle nut with cotter pin, torque to 35 lb-ft.
I'm still running factory tie-rods and center link, idler, pitman. no cotter pins. thought it was odd, then I saw this ultra low mile camaro pop up on BoT. it was 1400 miles.
The nuts in that picture have cotter holes in them.
Also guess how much the factory worker cared that day.
I recently puchased some Pro-Forged, AND Moog tie rods. They BOTH came with assorted cotter pin/castle nuts and lock nuts. Almost as if it was up to you to choose. NO WAY I'd EVER use nylocks. Holy cow that sounds sketchy!!!!
Wait, the kit came with both castle nuts and nylon locks? They must have really good lawyers.
I am very sensitive about this subject because I had a cotter pin fail (old pin sheared off and nut backed off) and I lost steering on the highway. I was in a 1961 Corvair Wagon. I hit the fence pretty hard but survived (homemade seat belt mounts for the win), no thanks to Nader. Anyone who is not running cotter pins needs to give their guardian angel a break and put some in.
The nuts in that picture have cotter holes in them.
Also guess how much the factory worker cared that day.
I don't think they are cotter pin holes. They are some odd pattern in the bolt. I'll get a close up photos when I'm down there next time. Both of my BMW's are not using cotter pins either, they are using Nylock. If you've ever worked on a modern BMW and follow their Technical Information Service manual (TIS), they are extremely precise in their procedures - down to which nuts or bolts need replaced, position of car when torquing, torque increments, stuff like that. I'm sure if they wanted a cotter pin in there, it would be in the TIS. Nothing like an old school 3rd Gen Factory Manual. To clarify - I'm not saying 3rd Gens ever used Nylock, but modern day BMW do. All I'm saying (or actualy wondering) is they didnt put cotter pins in. And thanks again for the warning guys, will quit testing my guardian Angel go get those cotter pins installed! Actually going over to get Liquidblue aligned this morning.
Last edited by LiquidBlue; 08-31-2021 at 08:11 AM.
It's weird because the inner tie rods that connect to the centre link have castle nuts and pins but the outer tie rods have the solid thread and locking nut?
The threaded part is that long I could put 2 locking nuts on it!
Not holes. They're locking nuts. The nut is deformed by stamping or punching the nut to deform it, which makes it resist vibrating loose.
Nylon locking nuts are probably an acceptable substitute, but if you're more comfortable with castle nuts and cotter pins or whatever....
Yes, that is exactly what they look like, as if they have been stamped. BTW, did a quick search on this subject and the cotter pin -vs- nylock mystery is all over the internet!
It's weird because the inner tie rods that connect to the centre link have castle nuts and pins but the outer tie rods have the solid thread and locking nut?
The threaded part is that long I could put 2 locking nuts on it!
Yes, it looks tight back there. If they are too long, I'd get the correct tie-rod end. Is it possible they gave you two outers? Be sure to measure them against old ones next time, sure you figured that out already
Originally Posted by gta_knight
but the outer tie rods have the solid thread and locking nut? !
That is what I see on the newer BMW's, not even a hole for a cotter pin if even you wanted to put one in.
Yes, it looks tight back there. If they are too long, I'd get the correct tie-rod end. Is it possible they gave you two outers? Be sure to measure them against old ones next time, sure you figured that out already
That is what I see on the newer BMW's, not even a hole for a cotter pin if even you wanted to put one in.
It's not uncommon for manufacturers to alter parts for older cars I guess.
These were all ordered together from Rock Auto, all Mevotech brand. I would of rather went with ac delco but I couldn't get all the stuff shipped to the UK from from same place so the postage was insane. The mevotech stuff had a heart next to it so people obviously buy it
Wait, the kit came with both castle nuts and nylon locks? They must have really good lawyers.
I ended up NOT using the Moog tie-rods, and this thread reminds me that they need to be returned! I'll go look tonight. IIRC, they didn't have an even number of each, meaning it wasn't one or another. I just kinda assumed it was end of shift for some parts packer and that's what I got!!!
On our cars, AFAIK they were all cotter pins & castle nuts.
What I'd be worried about with a Nylock is, if for any reason whatsoever the wedge became sufficiently unwedged to allow it to turn, the first thing that would happen is, it would try to back the Nylock off. Can't imagine a Nylock holding up to that for very long. The kind of a locknut with the punched-in places would do better, but still, ...
It's YOUR EFFFFFING LIFE AND THE LIFE OF EVERY PASSENGER IN YOUR CAR AND THE LIFE OF EVERY INNOCENT BYSTANDER. Are you willing to risk THAT over that little 2¢ part? Not me.
There are risks worth taking. IMO a Nylock vs a cotter pin, in that application, is not one that's "worth it".
Those locking nuts on the center link are factory. All 3 of my thirdgens still have them and my '83 did also.
As far as nylocs go, well I don't know what BMW was thinking but I wouldn't trust them on my car. They're probably OK for one use under the car (assuming automotive grade, hardened nuts, NO WAY EVER hardware store grade nothing made of cheese), but once you back them off and put them back on that nyloc is doing next to nothing, and they don't work when they get warm either, the nylon gets soft or even melts- it probably wouldn't be a big issue on 3rd gens but on modern cars where those linkages tend to be in warmer, tighter packed places... and unless I have been the only one that has EVER touched the car I'd always be worried that someone re-used the nyloc nut.
As far as BMW using nylock, I'd have to go back and see exactly where they use them, I forget. The manual will call for a replacement on many bolts and nuts. You do what they say. don't ask questions. Nylock is used in some places, and "self locking" collar nuts are used in other places.
In any regard, I am not advocating their use for 3rd Gens! I was merely pointing out that they are getting used in modern cars. Oh, and yeah, when I had the car aligned by BMW, (who should know better) I brought them new nuts to install anyway!
And yes, I'm pretty damn sure those are factory nuts on the centerlink, as I've owned the car since 1992, and the center link has never been replaced. Nor the tie-rods for that matter. Or any of the steering gear. All factory.
08-30-2021, 10:30 AM
LiquidBlue, your mistaken, I can assure you that that the factory did, in fact, use cotter pins on the tie rods & such.......
