GASGZLR

I have an '89 RS LO3 5-speed and I had some parts laying around and decided to bolt them on and see what would happen. The Short block is stock and has never been out of the car. Here is a list of what I did:

-LT4 HOT cam
-1.5 roller rockers
-Edelbrock E-Tec 170 Aluminum Heads 1.94/ 1.55 valves
-Stock head gaskets; Compression is LOW like 8.7:1 due to 350 heads (64cc)
-Edelbrock Perfromer RPM intake manifold
-Holley Street Avenger 670cfm carb out of the box.
-GM Vac Adv HEI(rebuilt with stock parts from checkers)36 degrees timing
-Hooker 2055 shorties and Y-pipe with stock exhaust
-Accel Ignition wires
-Used the stock TBI injector pod for its regulator and cut the spring shorter to lower the pressure to 7 psi as well as made it adjustable as per the ultimate TBI mods page. I ran the feed line straight to the carb and installed a "Tee" fitting on the driver side where the feed line attaches to the frame. It tees off to the modified regulator which acts as the restriction to regulate the pressure before it returns to the tank. I could have bought a mallory reg or equivalent but I was trying to do this on a tight budget (except for the parts I had laying around from my other camaro).

-The clutch is stock
-The T-5 is stock
-Suspension is stock except i welded the rear LCA's
-The rear has a used Posi out of a trans Am
-the gears are GM 3.42 out of a junkyard V6 car with a manual trans.

The car pulls smooth and strong to 6200 rpm and is dead even with stock LS1 F-body's and can beat most LS1 GTO's. I adjusted the Carb quite a bit at the track only to find that the stock holley settings worked the best. The car starts at the turn of a key and idles fairly smooth.

I know it could be faster if I put more compression, a good exhaust/cutout and maybe some other mods like underdrive pulley's, but it runs good and the stock A/C still works. I just wanted to show the nonbelievers in 305's/LO3 that one could be made to be a decent performer.

Best run is 13.64 @104.1 60 ft was 2.18

stock tires, rims body, etc.

Cadillac

Hail!!!



I'm not worthy!!

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

If you put a carb on it then its no longer an L03 or TBI so it doesnt belong in this forum.

BMmonteSS

Come on Kev, it's a LO3 bottom end. At least it shows what can be done with a 305 with way too much money thrown at it.

You can shave .5 second off those times by getting some traction. The same times could be ran with the TBI still in place with tuning.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I bet more than a half a second with just some LG4 or TPI 305 heads with 1.94 valves and a cat back system.

racer J

I would seriously doubt that as he has e-tec heads on his car. That is Edelbrock's version of Vortec heads. I agree on the use of a catback.



Not to bad on the low compression. Are you going to bump the compression or add a blower?

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I've never seen big chamber 350 heads do anything to a 305 but slow it down...

You can flow like 170 edelbrocks with port work. same 1.94 valves, but higher compression.

I agree that his heads are well suited to few psi of boost pressure.

BMmonteSS

Come one Kris, are you seriously trying to suggest that stock GM heads are as good as aftermarket ALUMINUM heads????? The compression loss is only costing him 3% power. Those heads will make him an easy 20% more than the stock heads. With the cam he has the shrouding issues are minimal.

Gazgslzr,

You really need to back the timing off, these are vortec based heads and will only require 28-32 degrees of timing for max power. You'll pick up a good bit of power by backing the timing off and it may save you from rattle the ring lands off the pistons.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I think with a small bore engine, compression ratio is even more important than a big bore engine, comparatively speaking. If you were talking about a 350 with 8.5 to 1, you can run a big cam with good heads and get decent power although it's still better if it's nearly 10 to 1.

A 305 with that cam and low compression is losing some serious oomf. I'm not comparing heads just as apples to apples. I am comparing the package deal using each set of heads. The dyno would not lie. I am also suggesting the heads have 1.94" valves and some port work. Nothing major, though.

I don't have a dyno to prove what I'm saying, I'm basing it on past experience with big heads, big cams and low compression versus same cam, more compression, milder heads. The higher (in my case approximately 10.25 to 1) the higher compression engine won out.

If there is a dyno test to prove it wrong, I'll jump on your bandwagon, I promise. I would always rather do what makes more power.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

13.64 @ 104.10 w/2.18 60-ft, on stock tires....? Hmm, IDK bro....

I'm sure your car makes loads of power, but I'd definitely need to see some footage to honestly accept the above. I remember reading in the V6 section how a member here (name withheld) pulled ten inches in the air, off the line, with a 1.80 sixty foot, with a boosted 2.8 V6 (which, of course, never really happened, not with that sixty foot anyways). Now, I'm not doubting anyone here, but I would definitely need to to see this taking place in order to believe it. Bring on the vids...!!!

eschevyrda

what? i though gtos where faster then the ls1 camaros and trans ams

Dewey316

Its not that far off, I went 13.3 @ 106 with a 2.2 60' on BFG Radial T/A garbage tires. That MPH and time is about right for street tires in our cars. I think those times are about right considering his mods.

But, I don't know why this is in the TBI forum, it is a carbed 305, so what if it is a TBI bottom end, there are plenty of guys going faster than that on stock 305 bottom ends, it is useless tech in the TBI forums. The stuff the TBI guys need/want to know is the mods done, injectors and tuning changes made.

--John

Blue-Beast

I swapped an LS1 into a 4th gen Camaro that was originally a V6 car. The next trip to the track it was consistent 13.6s/13.8s. After I swappen in a set of long-tubes it was down to a 13.5, a cat-back broght on 13.2s.
So your cammed/headed/carb'd and modded 305 can barely beat a stock LS1 Camaro? Sounds like so little gain for so much effort. The first (and only) 305 that I ever modded went slower with the big cam and the ported heads (it was my son's car, so that was a good thing). You should have thrown a 350 block under all those spare parts that you had, then you'd really have something.

To whip a GTO? Sorry, I just can't believe that one.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

John I agree, based on the mods, it sounds feasible. But w/static compression coming in at only 8.7:1, in conjunction with a 218/228 .525" .525" camshaft, even with the heads breathing as well as they do, I just don't see the engine making enough power to pull it off w/that low of a sixty foot. I'm not saying that it didn't happen, I would just need to see it to believe it....

-Rob

deadtrend1

iTrader: (1)

true, plus I never considered heads and cam to be bolt ons.

Have any videos of your runs? Or slips?

The 60" you can get down significantly witha set of stickies out back. Launch a little harder and hope the trans and clutch make it ..

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I was cutting 2.28s 60' times in a 5,500 lbs van with 3.08 gears and a 305. 2,800 rpm converter and P295/50/R17 tires.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Just to place some of this into perspective, Matt Walker ran a best of 12.66 @ 103.98mph on a 1.665 60' w/his 305 Camaro, albeit w/much higher compression levels, cam, heads, stalled auto, and adequate gearing out back (not to mention a pretty substantial drop in the car's overall weight). Now, if the above car in question simply dropped it's sixty foot down to 1.665, from it's 2.18, it would be just as competitve as Matt's, despite making so much less horsepower, and not being set up (other than boxed LCR's), to drag. Again, not that it didn't happen, I would just need to see to believe....

Dewey316

I don't seem to have that timeslip online. I do have a 13.7 @ 104 timeslip uploaded though. I'll dig through all my timeslips and try to find that one, and post a pictures.

http://www.cascadecrew.org/John/timeslip.jpg

I have a bad run doing a 14.5 or something at the 1:00 here.

http://www.cascadecrew.org/video/PIR.wmv

I think I run a 13 something at about the 3:50 mark in this one. The videos are REALLY low quality, you might be able to hear the announcer to hear the times.

http://www.cascadecrew.org/video/DynoRacing.wmv

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The only video I have that is from a stop with the 305 is with the stock 1,600 rpm torque converter in the 4L60E, with stock exhaust manifolds, and UPHILL. 5,500 lbs with 3.08 gears being moved by a semi-low compression swirl port head 305.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

And I ran 12.95 at 103.8 on a 1.71 60 foot in a true bolt on only L98. stock longblock with only HSR. Kinda hard to compare cars from place to place because Matts car is lighter than mine, and has big head/better heads/etc. it may go alot faster than me the same day i broke 12's. You never know the weather that day as it makes a big difference. when you look at it, it doesnt look as impressive, i mean a 305 car with headwork/cam/bigger stall/lightened only went abit faster than my bolt on L98. Doesnt sound as good, but you gotta compare weather conditions, elevation, etc Mine was at 188 ft Density altitude in 49 degree weather, i run 13.2-13.3's in 60-70 degree heat

witht that said, i think it is possible he could run those times on those 60's with those mods. the LT4 hotcam is a top end cam and would pull VERY strong on top. the compression tho surprises me, does seem low to pull off that mph.

ANyway to the orginal poster, how does that 355 with that 230/236 cam run in your sig??

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Much like the belief that every hundred pound reduction in weight provides about a tenth or so drop in ET, the general consensus in the racing world is that every tenth of a reduction in the 60' usually equates to about a .15 drop in ET, overall. This would place GASGZLR at 'about' 12.89 in the 1/4 with a 1.68 60'. Sorry, I just don't see it....

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

This is why I initially agreed with John in that it sounded feasible with those mods, but with that low of a compression level, the benefit of the LT4's duration will become irrelevant. Combine that with the car's factory weight, not to mention the precision needed to manual shift the transmission. I just don't see it in the same league as Matt's.

skinny z

Have any of you had your car on scales? My 86 weighed in at 3900 lbs with me (200lbs) although specs I've read suggest thats a bit heavy. More like 3400lbs curb weight plus driver.
A 350 with near stock vortec heads, .028" head gasket and Speed Pro flat tops for 9.97:1 CR, Comp 268H flat tappet cam 4 degrees advanced (200 PSI cranking pressure), 1.6 Pro Magnum rockers, 34 degrees total advance with 12 initial (94 octane), shorty headers with 3" single cat, typically modified 4L60 with TCI Breakaway convertor (2500+/- stall), 3.73 BW posi with 26" drag radials get me a best 13.4@102 with a 1.89 60'. Nice summer day near Toronto. 70 degrees and average humidity.
Seems like everyone else is a bit quicker considering the combinations.
I'm thinking some 1 5/8 long tube headers with 20" long collectors and true duals will bring on the torque when the motor is on the convertor.
Suggestions?
Any other weigh-ins?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

my car is 3400 on a CAT truck scale with 1/2 tank and without me in it.

3310 with race wheels and 1/8 tank of gas without me

254whp to run 103mph trap.

Thats why it a general consensus. Not always truth in how it works, it depends on alot of variables. In my case, its close. i know when i spin alittle and go 2.02 60 foot i ran 13.86 while the next run was dead hook to a 1.82 60 and ran 13.58 in the heat. so it works out that about a .1 gain in 60 leads to near .14 drop in ET. But doesnt always work that way.

As far as 100 lbs is a tenth, when i added a 175lb passenger, I went .15 slower and about 1.5mph slower if i recall right. So it seems like a close comparison

I ran my car once on slicks that i didnt heat up enough and spun to a 2.0x 60 foot and ran 13.86 at 98-99mph. before my tune and other little mods. thats why i think its possible to do a 2.1 60 or so and still run 13.6 at 104. my buddies car went 1.9x on street tires and ran 13.6's-13.7's all day long at 100mph

8.7 to 1 if thats the true static compression ratio does seem very low for aluminum heads, but if the tune/quench is good and the heads flow air, it will still make some upper rpm hp. Etec 170's should outflow stock L98 vette heads which Mw66nova used when he went 12's. I think tho he may have had them worked over abit. Not sure. its hard to say without him chiming in here.

I know i've seen some fairly decent dyno results for motors in the 9-9.5 to 1 range with aluminum heads when the GENERAL rule of thumb is to keep compression up near 10.5 to 1 with aluminum

skinny z

Then 3600 lbs sounds close with me and a tank of fuel. That means I'm making less power than I thought.
Like your buddy though, I run a 1.90 60' but with drag radials and a 102 trap speed. I can repeat that half a dozen times until I get a little heat soak into the engine compartment and have to cool down for a bit. Still 102 MPH should be closer to low 13's if everything works right.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Variables of course can have either a negative or positive effect, but not as much as the symmetrical aspect of the valvetrain. The general consensus from a racing standpoint is actually a .20 drop in ET for every .10 drop in the sixty foot. I used .15 to provide for a little leeway in regards to this discussion, because if I used .20, the calculated value would actually better Matt's time, which would be impossible in my opinion. Just to reiterate, I have seen stranger things happen at the track, and although I'm not doubting the original poster's claim, I would still have to see it, to believe it....

GASGZLR

The timing was set at the track to get the best time like the carb. You guys are all right; I need more comression/unshroud valves/catback, etc. but I had a small handful of parts, some time, and a bone stock LO3 sitting there. I had no idea how good it was going to run.

I agree that it is not really an LO3 anymore especially since I took off the TBI and swirl ports, but the short block is all GM LO3. Besides you guys that are good at the EFI stuff could probably tune the TBI to run this engine and get the same power.

Driving around it is actually less "torquey" than when it was stock. Probably due to the low comression and cam. All the power is up past 3800 rpm. It takes a while to get going, but once you are in the power band it keeps pulling decently. I got my 60 foot by reving it to like 4000 and dumping the clutch. it would spin then try to grab and just hop the wheels and go . It is very tricky to take off because it is very easy to bog it out. Most LS1's can beat me especially from a low roll but I can beat the slower ones, convertable-auto, auto-GTO's 5.7.

My short block has a lot of miles on it and I would like to build it up better like mill the heads, use flat top pistons, put better exhaust.

I estimate the car makes about 250rwhp. I stay dead even with my buddy's modded WRX that has a dyno proven 250 awhp, and I think they weigh about the same.

Lastly, I have a dyno graph of my IROC with these heads,cam,carb,intake,headers, and it made 353.xx rwhp and 383 rwtq. The only difference is that is was a 350 and the comression was 10.1.

My motivation was that Engine Masters issue where they boled on some Vortec heads and the XE268 flat tappet cam on a stock 305 bottom end and made 375 hp on the engine dyno@ 6,100 rpm.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Haha, thats nothing near an L03 anymore.

When I started reading your post I started to laugh at your "bolt ons"

What you did was change everything but the shortblock. There is hardly any difference between that short block and an L69 shortblock or LB9 shortblock. Hardly L03 specific.
Thats like me swapping to a 383 and re-using the spark plugs from my L03 and calling it an L03.

For the record, I did something similar years ago and ran the same times. Some of you were around when I built a 305 with ported H.O. heads, 214/224 cam, edelbrock 600 cfm carb, torker II single plane.. and all the other bolt ons.

I ran nearly exactly the same time and mph as this guy. 13.65 at 104 with a 2.1 60 foot on nitto drag radials. I had wheel hop and pump shot issues (i needed a double pumper) I have the timeslips to prove it too. My highest mph was 104.97 on a 13.7 run

So his run is perfectly plausible though about as far as you can get from being an "L03 with bolt ons"

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

^ I remember that run Pablo, this was when you were having problems with the throttle body puddling fuel into the intake, or something to that effect, and you swapped to the carburetor. Don't get me wrong, I know that there are 305's on this forum that are running even better times than that now, it's just his dynamic/static compression levels in which has me wondering.; 8.7:1 to 9.5:1 is a tremendous difference in power....

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

you figure that cam is good for mid 12's on a 350, with 10 to 1 compression. On a 305 with 10 to 1 and aluminum heads i can see it running near 300whp if not over that

Cadillac

Yeah, I regret all the beer I drank before my initial, first reply to the thread. Still, it gives me hope.

I think I would opt for a new block (or a crate) when it comes to cranking the output up.

Guest

I probably have a copy of that timeslip, and a virtually identical run to match it but IIRC Pablo's 60' was a bit better than 2.18.

So to the OP, whats this 89 RS weigh? And it has more than 250rwhp if it runs what it does.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

hey guys, just found this post. my car has been 12.66 @ 103mph on almost stock 416 heads. only thing we did to them was mill them so the combustion chamber is now 53cc's and the stock valves got a backcut. we also did some MINOR bowl work.

when the car had the 113's on it, i managed a 12.31 @ 108mph. i cracked one of the cylinder heads, which is why i went to the 416's. if someone where to give me a set of 113's again, i'd likely be in the 11's by now.

i weight 3230 w/ me in the car

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

for the nay-sayers:

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

How big of a cam? what kind of induction?

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

14.87 looks about right for a 305 car... hehe

ohhhh.... you meant that OTHER number????

Seriously, though, tell me what 113 heads are (I'm not a chevy guy) and are 416's carb or TPI?

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

the 113's are the aluminum l98 corvette heads. mine were from a 1991. the 416's are lg4/l69 heads(carbed). nothing special about them.

i'm using a comp magnum 280H cam. if you look in my vBgarage i've got my entire combo in there. i get tired of retyping it all the time. i actually posted a few years back a "how to go low 13's with a 305 on a budget" in the tech/general engine board, but instead of it being stickied, the mods just let it die. even though i've been much faster than that now, it was still a good reference.

ssean92

iTrader: (10)

I have seen matts car in person, very well set up. I have see this car grow alot. It is pretty cool to see this little 305 do what it does.........

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for the info. 113's sound like a rare jewel. If I found them in the j/y, then great, but other than that I'd probably buy used aftermarket alloys.

Thanks again.

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

Pretty large cam, I'm impressed though, are the heads worked over at all? I believe it easily though, just feeling how my car moves with a much smaller zz4 cam and the 081 heads. I'm still TBI, I'm assuming you're carbed

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

please read the information i've already posted. here it is again though:

the cylinder heads i'm running now are slightly modified 416's. these are the heads i was running when i ran the 12.66 @ 103.98mph in november. they have the following done to them:
-comp 981 springs
-screw-in studs and guideplates
-STOCK 1.84/1.5 valves with a 30* backcut
-competition style 3 angle valve job
-MILD bowl blending, mainly just getting the casting flash off
-milled the heads to a 53cc combustion chamber size.

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

yeah, I didn't see the minor bowl work earlier. I would have thought that cam would have been too large for basically stock heads. How high up does it pull in the RPM range?

I've got to get to the track when the season starts and see what I can do, I like the setup you've got though.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

thank you. the car pulls to about 6100rpms and then start to fall off, but i'm also still running a basically stock HEI ignition system with no ignition box to speak of and a stock mechanical fuel pump. honestly, this thing should pull to 6500rpms or so once i get the supporting mods up to par.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

I can't wait to get my ZZ4 heads and cam in. I know my car weighs less than Matt's by about 300 pounds. I'll still be Tbi though.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

well, with aluminum heads and a 10 bolt, you're probably right, atleast 200lbs lighter anyways. my car is 2975lbs w/o me (oh yea, i weigh like 270ish) and that's with iron cylinder heads and a Moser 9". i'll be going to a ligher starter soon and hopefully and electric water pump as well

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

thanks for the update on your car Matt, when anyone is looking for fast 305 combo's, your the name that comes to mind

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

no problem bro! keep 'em comin', lol! i love the look on people face when i tell them it's just a 305