InfinityShade

As the post suggests I have an 84 camaro with 90% stock parts. I don't mind the "lack" of power because I will be giving it some more soon enough. I am rather happy with the torque this car produces so I'm considering a 5 or even 6 speed swap. T5 or T56, idk id like some options on 5 and 6 speeds so I can figure it out. Not having a gear to down shift to when im in fourth kills me. 55 is the bottom of fourth and the top of 3ed so i have to hill climb at 45 mph or run up it at 65.

Why you ask? Well The iron duke gets killer gas mileage and it produces a good amount of power once tuned and built right. 120-130 (No internal upgrades) isn't a bad mark for a daily driver getting 30+ mpg. With the amount of torque the duke produces a 6 speed geared right could provide a nice balance of power and top speed. Not to mention i'd get closer to 40 mpg unless all the extra weight kills the deal for a 6 speed.

In case you are wonder... headers and the holley tbi give the iron duke about 30-40 more hp and its going to give me more without hurting my mpg (which is my goal. A cruiser with good mpg and some small ***** that are still bigger than hondas). I'll get my power kicks from the SHO while i finish the reliable long lasting engine. Unless someone suggests i do the sin of putting a ford engine in a camaro again...

jmd

iTrader: (4)

You might review the service tag (bolted with a tailhousing bolt) to see if you can review the service number (1351-xxx if T4) and see what ratios your 4 speed (T4? Saginaw?) is. Then do the rear gear oil and determine the rear gear pinion and ring tooth counts.

More rear gear and a T5 make sense. A T56 does not. While there may be some late model 6 speed that would be totally tractable, given the engine powerband and vehicle weight, none of the T56s are a good option.

Post up what you find on the ratios and rear gear.

InfinityShade

Its going to be a bit before i get that information. The service tag isn't there (i know because i did the clutch) however i have the original papers from this cars manufacturing. I found them under the driver seat. I need to tape it together then i'll know which model 4 speed and which rear end I have. If switching my rear is all i need i wouldn't mind keeping the 4 speed but i would like a gear to down shift to. Anyway ill post back with that data when i have it.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

External rods for the shifter indicate a Saginaw, which third gens definitely had installed. Reverse is to the left and down (next to 2nd)

A shifter bolted to the top, controlling an internal shifter rail would tend to indicate a T4 / T5 but I'm not sure third gens got the T4. Reverse is to the right and down (next to 4th)

InfinityShade

K its a sag then. Its left and down. I was pretty sue but ill double check to see if my rods are internal or external. The rear is stock i believe.

I keep thinking about that t56 or a small six speed. If i gear it to optimise the torque ratios i could get some nice power. That is if its a lightweight model. Each gear would only need to cover 25-30mph? The first 25 mph of a 4 speed gets up and goes its just that gap between 55 and 85 that really hurts. I know everyone leans on hp but hight torque ratios going straight back is powerful in a way. If i could do a six speed it would set me up for a sd build later.

danryanm

There really is no great solution to what you want to do. The Iron Duke simply does not produce enough torque to pull 6th gear in a T56 without radically changing the rear axle ratio (numerically higher), which would defeat the purpose of having 6th gear. You would also find that by re-gearing your axle, your 1-4 ratios will seem much closer, to the point that you will run out of gear at very low speeds (shifting sooner.) What you do with your car is your choice, but I would enjoy it for what it was intended to be - an EXTREMELY good looking economy car - and laugh all the way to the bank between fill-ups. Plus, 4 speeds are just so cool!

InfinityShade

All i got is my original pappers with "trans RA-22GRA F" on them. Can someone decode?) I found the manufacturing plants slip under the driver seat ^.^ i really like the four banger four speed combo but i need fourth to do a little more work. I am going to try for 120-130 hp with headers and upgraded ignition systems. As far as i know 150hp is stock 84 blocks limit. If im not happy with that i can drop a 5 in.

Pappers say "mm4 spd, m26 4 spd, gu6 342 raio axl. Lq9 l4 151t".

jmd

iTrader: (4)

MM4 is provisions for manual 4 speed.
M26 should be the ratios; googling says it may be a 3.50 first gear.
You could built a 3.50 first gear T5 from Astro van parts but those would be 1st design, "Non-World Class" AFAIK.
The 3.76 first gear stuff is more common and was used in S10/Blazer and 3rd and 4th gen F-bodies. That, with a mild OD ratio would be a decent option, and with 3.73 or 3.90 rear, would be a more tractable option.
I imagine the 84 floor makes the T5 shifter location on the F-body units an easy fitment.

InfinityShade

Shift links are external first maxs at about 25 2ed 35 3ed 55 4th drags *** to 85. If i had 130hp id probably be happy? (Ill edit in the trans vin once i get under there again.) So with the higher torque output would you suggedt a 3.9 with a four speed? I saw someone take the axel from a fourth gen and put rims with deeper wells in to make up for the width.

(Still playing with the 6 idea)
your sure there is no way i could make a six speed work? Is there a minimum hp i need to reach? Or a different ratio configuration? Keep in mind i could change my cam to oporate in a needed range or in future builds with an sd crank add a blower to drive low end. Its more of a "what would i need" question. For now im rocking four for fun.

danryanm

I will not say the T56 cannot be made to work, just that the compromises you will have to make may counteract any benefits. Just for the sake of the discussion, let's assume your rear axle is a 3.73 unit (most I4's were.) At 60mph you would be turning ~1400 RPM, which does not produce enough power to maintain that speed in 6th gear. Even at 75mph you'd only be turning 1800 RPM, which may not generate enough torque to maintain speed.

If you use a lower rear end ratio (numerically higher) 5th and 6th will be more usable. However, the trade-off is in how much shorter each gear will become. Imagine a slinky; the higher the gearing, the longer it reaches with more space between each coil. It takes significantly more power to make it to the far end of the slinky (to go faster.) The lower the gearing, the shorter it reaches with less space between the coils. It takes less power to get to the end, but the shifts will be closer and the end result (speed) may not differ enough from stock to warrant the tremendous expense of the T56 swap.

InfinityShade

Correction 1EL203669 gm 328-5858

jmd

iTrader: (4)

More rear gear isn't the sole solution.

The typical 1-4 main ratios of a T56 are either wide and evenly spaced or close and gradually closer the higher the gear.

Using gearing to compensate for a heavier load to engine torque ratio, you want the ratios that get closer the higher you shift. And wide initially. The only trans. you would even want to consider would be the 1993-only 3.3x first gear T56 and you'd still want to re-gear the rear. And I'd STILL go with a T5 in your car, knowing what I know, and having done a T56 behind a 305.

The 2.5 has the same requirements to bolt an LT1 T56 behind it that an 82-85 305 does. It's not the swap; it's the gearing that make it a poor choice. T5 is the most logical choice.

InfinityShade

Hmm... So would a T5 solve my issues of getting up hills? Or could i just fix that with a rear change. Keep in mind i haven't added my hp from headers or ignition systems yet. I'm expecting to be at 115-120 hp when i'm done with that. (trans vins up 2 posts. help identify please.)

jmd

iTrader: (4)

The T5 wouldn't solve it. Being in an ideal gear / total ratio would solve it.

Reading your first post, you don't like 4th (too low of rpm) nor 3rd (too high.)

So what I'm saying is, if:
new 5th x rear gear was taller than current 4th x current rear gear and
new 4th x rear gear was taller than current 3rd x current rear gear,
you might be happy with the results.

Drivability and tractability are not simple; look at all the brilliance that goes into cars which have owners who decided a 750 double pumper and 4.10 gears because it was gonna make their Camaro Ossum! and then it sucked to drive around / pay for gas / listen to rpm all day. Making a car ultimately drivable after changing the power level or drivetrain takes some forethought. A T5, depending on ratios, could be an addition of basically only 1 gear; no other changes. With a rear gear change and different T5 ratios, it could add 1st gear take-off quickness and reduce cruise rpm in 5th, and put your rpm at a better place in 4th for hills, which could make your car drive better. But there's a reason your car was built with the ratios and rear it came with and improving on that could be minimal resuilts. Do it right.

danryanm

"jmd" is correct, installing only a T5 will not do anything to address your complaint. 4th gear will still be the same 1:1 ratio you have now. Even with the ridiculously expensive T56 you will still have the same 4th gear. The only addition will now be one (or two, with the T56) additional gears that "drag ***" as you say. All T56's were geared for high-torque applications, and as such do not have a favorable 1st gear for helping the Duke push that heavy car. Many T5's will have a good 1st (some even better than what you have now) but will still not address your top end issue. If you want to take hills more easily without a drastic increase in power, your only option is to change the rear axle ratio. After that, maybe a T5 will be beneficial.

InfinityShade

So pretty much your saying its more about your rear axels ration than your trans because most trans have the same ration but extended into 5 and 6 gears? I now have about 105hp and im seeing a small improvment. If im understanding you guys correctly it would be wise for me to stick with my stock setup until i reach the hp where i have enough power to feed my 4th gear. Then if i sawp to a t5 i will gain top speed and a better first as well as a gear to down shift to. What ate the t5 and t56 (93) gear ratios? (Did anyone figure out what my trans was yet? I havent found a decoder yet.)

I found an 89 s10 with the 88 2.5 and a 5 speed for cheap. I wonder how many parts would be transferable. Specificly: trans, fuel injection, intake, heads, and rear.