TBIThrottle Body Injection discussion and questions. L03/CFI tech and other performance enhancements.
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HI guys this is my first post on TBI so dont bash too hard, so here goes. I have a 1988 camaro I bought new.It now has a little over 400,000 miles,go ahead and tell me i'm lying , everybody else does LOL. I just swapped out the L03 for a vortec 350. Rebuilt with .030 flat tops ,new 062 heads,981 comp springs,valve guides cut for up to .540 lift ,full port job on exhaust, bowl work under intake. Also 1.6 roller tip rockers and screw in studs. Has a 97 Z28 LT1 cam. Intake is a Professional Products Power Plus with the divider notched, used to do this in the old days to up the RPM range a little. Has 2" throttle body, stock regulator bypased , used Aeromotive #13301 fully adjustable 3to 60Lbs,have TPI fuel pump set at 15 Lbs, either 68 or 65 Lb injectors ,dont know which, yellow/brown paint code from 91 caprice. Has all new sensors ,TPS ,MAP, oxygen ,CTS . Exhaust consists of 1 5/8" stainless shorty headers ,2 1/2"y pipe 3" hi flow cat and 3" stainless exhaust to Magnaflow muffler. Trans is 700r4 ,stock converter. Rear is 3.23 posi. Swapped out the 8063 ECM to 8746 and ANLU chip from '89 caprice. Car started and idled great . Set timing to 6 deg before,checked oil press again and let warm up. No issues, decided to go for a drive. IT RAN WORSE THAN CRAP!!!. Reset timing 10 deg CRAP,set fuel press 20psi,CRAP. Timing and fuel pressure has been set from upper to lower limits,CRAP. I started to get that sick feeling in my gut . What went wrong,what did I do wrong. I needed to break in the new engine so I did the unthinkable. I unpluged the distributor set the timing to 24 deg and installed a CARB Engine runs great. 500 miles still runs great, pulls good to 6000. But I want my TBI back. Time for the bashing( I know I deserve it). I've read for over a year that I would need to tune, Even with the mild LT1 cam. I guess seeing is beliving. Go ahead BMonteSS and Fast355 bash away. Finally here's my question. I'm not too computer savy so which would be easiest for me to tune? The 8746 or 7427 with burning equiptment or the flash EBL. Please don't consider cost only ease of use. Your opionions are highly respected. And also sorry for such a long post, but I felt all that was said was needed. Thanks to all who reply.
Welcome to TGO. Well, you are not alone. For ease of tunning get FLASH EBL and WBO, if budget permits. Your current combo is way off from what stock VE and spark calibrations from ANLU. With EBL Flash (and WBO) you will be able to dial in fueling rather quickly. SE tables will take a while since finding optimum timing is cam/head/exhaust dependent. I'm still playing (optimizing) my timing after almost 20 test drives. So there it is. My two cents worth....
Thanks for the quick reply //RF. Will the wide band need to be permanantly installed? Will the ECM need it or is it just for tuning? I can borrow one from a friend if only for tuning. Also what is a good location? When I built the headers I put a bung in each collector and the Y pipe junction. Thanks again.Dean!!
In my case I have a true dual exhaust system (its a non third gen, no cats). On passenger side I have NBO and on driver side I have ZT-2 WBO. Opposing banks run close enough in terms of fuel mixture and burn - your experience may be different. Note that if you move further away from the engine you'll have to run heated NBO sensor. To get good NBO data I run four wire NBO - AFS-75.
EBL provides real time data (and extensive data logging) for both NBO and WBO sensors (and other additional sensors). There are couple long posts outlining operating experience with EBL coupled to a WBO - it is a good read. Where EBL really shines (that was a clear winner for me) is a supper fast data rate update between ECM and laptop and ease of flash programming - no chips to pull or EPROM programmers to worry about. An EPROM update, based on VE learn test drive can be uploaded and ready to go in about 10- 20 seconds. Try to do that with flash chips and programmer, without bending leads while installing chip into ECM! GL!
Newer P4 ECM offer greater flexibility through advance idle algorithms, among other programmable parameters - I just do not have first hand experience with these controllers. Perhaps other members can shed a light on these controllers.
In my case I have a true dual exhaust system (its a non third gen, no cats). On passenger side I have NBO and on driver side I have ZT-2 WBO. Opposing banks run close enough in terms of fuel mixture and burn - your experience may be different. Note that if you move further away from the engine you'll have to run heated NBO sensor. To get good NBO data I run four wire NBO - AFS-75.
EBL provides real time data (and extensive data logging) for both NBO and WBO sensors (and other additional sensors). There are couple long posts outlining operating experience with EBL coupled to a WBO - it is a good read. Where EBL really shines (that was a clear winner for me) is a supper fast data rate update between ECM and laptop and ease of flash programming - no chips to pull or EPROM programmers to worry about. An EPROM update, based on VE learn test drive can be uploaded and ready to go in about 10- 20 seconds. Try to do that with flash chips and programmer, without bending leads while installing chip into ECM! GL!
Newer P4 ECM offer greater flexibility through advance idle algorithms, among other programmable parameters - I just do not have first hand experience with these controllers. Perhaps other members can shed a light on these controllers.
//RF
I like the PCM for the fact that upgrading to a 4L60E is EASY when the 700r4 craps out. With the 4L60E you have ALOT of benifits over the 700r4. The TBI PCM also has ALOT going for it over other stock controllers. I have 3 of them running outside of their OEM niche now. One is running my 305 TPI/4L60E powered 1983 G20 van, a second is running a 2.8/4L60E, and a 3rd runs the 350 TBI in my 1980 C10 truck.
I tune the PCM realtime with Wideband data too, using a Moates AutoProm.
LOL. I just swapped out the L03 for a vortec 350. Rebuilt with .030 flat tops ,new 062 heads,981 comp springs,valve guides cut for up to .540 lift ,full port job on exhaust, bowl work under intake. Also 1.6 roller tip rockers and screw in studs. Has a 97 Z28 LT1 cam. Intake is a Professional Products Power Plus with the divider notched, used to do this in the old days to up the RPM range a little. Has 2" throttle body, stock regulator bypased , used Aeromotive #13301 fully adjustable 3to 60Lbs,have TPI fuel pump set at 15 Lbs, either 68 or 65 Lb injectors ,dont know which, yellow/brown paint code from 91 caprice. Has all new sensors ,TPS ,MAP, oxygen ,CTS . Exhaust consists of 1 5/8" stainless shorty headers ,2 1/2"y pipe 3" hi flow cat and 3" stainless exhaust to Magnaflow muffler. Trans is 700r4 ,stock converter. Rear is 3.23 posi. Swapped out the 8063 ECM to 8746 and ANLU chip from '89 caprice. Car started and idled great . Set timing to 6 deg before,checked oil press again and let warm up. No issues,
decided to go for a drive. IT RAN WORSE THAN CRAP!!!. Reset timing 10 deg CRAP,set fuel press 20psi,CRAP. Timing and fuel pressure has been set from upper to lower limits,CRAP. I started to get that sick feeling in my gut . What went wrong,what did I do wrong. I needed to break in the new engine so I did the unthinkable. I unpluged the distributor set the timing to 24 deg and installed a CARB
Engine runs great. 500 miles still runs great, pulls good to 6000. But I want my TBI back. Time for the bashing( I know I deserve it). I've read for over a year that I would need to tune, Even with the mild LT1 cam. I guess seeing is beliving. Go ahead BMonteSS and Fast355 bash away. Finally here's my question. I'm not too computer savy so which would be easiest for me to tune? The 8746 or 7427 with burning equiptment or the flash EBL. Please don't consider cost only ease of use.
Your opionions are highly respected. And also sorry for such a long post, but I felt all that was said was needed. Thanks to all who reply. 
