tbfirebird

Okay ive been saving money over the past months and now its time to have fun with the money ive got

3,208 dollars to spend on my 1989 Firebird formula with the 305 tbi with 116,000 miles

its got the following mods.

Just the flowmaster muffler 80 series 2 1/2 inlet
Lakewood rear control arms.
edelbrock 14 inch open element filter


3.23 gears not installed still in the garage.





thats all ive done to the car so any suggestions would be
thanked.



Also im looking into getting rid of the 305 tbi for a different motor thinking about the LT1!!
Dont know what to do to the car first.

Enkil

Drop in a zz4.

MrDude_1

options:

1. build a motor.. you can build a stout street motor. however, you would probly have to carb it... so not really smog legal.

2. and this is what i would do: get a LT1 + tranny combo ( i prefer the T56 myself) and put that in... alot of work, but really worth it IMO..

3. waste it trying to make a 305 fast, and still be passed by others who spent far less.

Riley's35089rs+

Very well said!!

gmgod

I would get the gears installed first. If you don't have the knowledge/tools/space to build an engine you could get the 330 Hp 350 HO gm crate motor and a vortec performer manifold. That way you could use your tbi with LO5 injectors and chip untill you decided to go carb.

Guest

i 2nd that idea

MX265

I 3rd the idea.....

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/perform...ATID=1099.html

RB83L69

Sell the slow car and buy a fast one.

MrDude_1

lol, not to be a dick, but he has one good point here.

if your car isnt in the best of condition, you could sell your car, and combine that with the money saved and buy a perfect condtion TPI350 car. you would be starting way ahead of where you are now.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

If the cars in good shape, save up another 1.5k and get an LS1 and T56. I hate the way most of the fourth gens look but i sure do like that motor. Theres nothing better then seeing the look on someones face when you waste them with a 'slow' RS. That 550 lb. boat anchor you have in there now is worthless. If the car is in poor condition, though, you might as well sell it.

FyreLance

... This is everyone sitting here telling him a 305 is useless, making assumptions about how much his car is worth and telling him to sell it not even having any basis for it...

MrDude_1

not true. however i am being realistic.

he obviously has a decient amount of money saved up. if he dumps it into a POS 3rdgen, he will still be behind where a decient/ great car would be... so for starters, if his starting point is rough, NOW is the time to start over. not after he dumped several thousand dollars in it.

the 305 is useless from a performance stand point. good example. one guy has modded vortec heads, intake, cam, ect... hes making 270-290HP ( i dont recall exactly.)

thats decient, but one prob. its still only 290hp and he spend alot of money. take thoes EXACT same parts, and bolt them on a 350.. properly tuned, he'll get almost 400hp. did the 50 extra cubes do it? no.

the fact that the bore is so small on the 305 is one of the major reasons its choking. combine that with the non performance orented heads,cam,intake,exhaust,valvetrain,ect, and you get a low power car that requires major money to get up to deciently quick status.

with the amount of money he has however, if his car is nice and he wants to upgrade the drivetrain, i would be looking for a nice LT1/T56 combo. if not that, then he can easily build a kickass SBC, heh, if he wanted, he could splurge and build a roller cammed 400...

TomP

I agree; when I first opened this message, I expected a figure of $500 or $1000. But over $3000? That's a whole different ballpark, for two reasons. One, it screams out "drastic change". Two, for $3000, you'd want a spectacular result... not to drop a half second in the 1/4. I know I'd be pretty ticked if I spent $3000 and found out I could've done much better by doing less work and getting a larger motor.

RB83L69

Do the 2-column analysis of this.

Down the left column, write down what it would cost to buy a really nice one of these cars; figure on a top-of-the-line one in decent shape, like a 91 or 92 Z28 or TA with a 305 5-speed TPI or a 350, a GTA, a HO car in good shape, maybe a convertible, etc. etc. From that amount, subtract what you can sell your current car for. Be realistic and don't assume that somebody is going to just gift you their cool car, or that you're going to get top dollar for yours, whatever it might be. Realism is the key here. That's how much it would take to turn your car into the other car, by replacing it.

Down the right column, write down all the things you'd have to change, to make your car into a nice one. Be honest. Include gears, t-tops, better motor, paint, interior, wheels, whatever your car lacks that you'd like it to have. Add a reasonable estimate of what it will cost you in your time, alternate transportation while yours is undergoing surgery, etc. Again, be realistic, don't blue-sky any of this. That's what it would take to turn your car into the car you want by altering the one you have now.

Which one comes out the lower number? That's the correct answer.

Now look at the pile you have saved up, and see if it will cover that difference; and if it does, then whatever you have left over, use it on the car that's a better car to begin with. Spend you money on a really nice maxed-out car instead of spending it on a plain-jane car.

So what's wrong with this advice? Numbers don't lie.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Doing an economic analysis is definatly a good idea. But, ask yourself this, 'how fast do i really want to go?' After all, how fast do you want to go? 14's, 13's, 12's, 10's You said yourself you want to go fast and have fun. If you jsut want a nice car to drive around that has some power on the side then a GTA or HO is a good choice. Be forwarned though, that the TPI car will be next to impossible to get deep into the 13's or maybe into 12 s 1/4 mile with stock components. Youll find yourself with only maybe a couple hundred dollars left and youll still be needing a whole plethora of parts to make your fast car a reality. Many of the parts that are on the new car youll buy will have to go. In the end, youd be better off jsut keeping your present car, since most of the parts like the stock suspention, induction, etc. will have to go anyway regardless of what you buy. Having had both an HO and a near mint GTA in the past, i can tell you that they're pretty decent cars in stock form, but, even my tbi'd SC has surpassed them with a 350 and some mods. You really need to ask yourself what you truly want from your car before you go and spend your money.

Guest

listen to them i have a 305 in my car bored /030 over, cam, intake, holley 600cfm carb, a hot cam, ported head, after makeket springs , a 350 crankshaft and with a rebuilt trans (less then 500miles, and a trans go shift kit and 22oorpm stall) and 3.23 open gears in the bad and my best run was a 15.1@87mph don't waste your money on a 305. unless your going to put NOS or a tubro on it but when then its not worth it. i mean look at wille's camaro... 11.9 out of a 305 and he has like what $20,000 into it?? i blow up my 305 and i'm going to put in a 454 ..

tbfirebird

The Paint is in good condtion for a origional paint job from 1989 with 116 thousand mile the only thing thats wrong is that the drivers side door the plastic strip thats glued to the middle of the door started peeling off so i took it off and took off the rust under the plastic strip.


Otherwise theres no other rust areas and the paint isnt even fadded or anything the interior is all black orgional and theres no holes or cuts any where on the seats or carpet nothing is even fadded.Beside the door i was going to buy lexan windows and the fiberglass doors.


Also i still have to go for emmssions so i think i might go with the 350 LT1 with the T56 6 speed because on ebay it was for $3,400 shipped so i'll have to work the corners for $200 more. LOL



THANKS FOR all your help if i didnt have to go for emmissions testing i would put the zz4 in my bird.

Guest

you can make the ZZ4 past emmissions my friend has one in his 86 monte carlo it runs high 12 ans it still passes :-D

RB83L69

That isn't very honest. It's blue-sky.

You still have 2.73 gears, an exhaust that you can hardly blow through let alone run an engine through, no pedal assembly inside the car, you'll have to have the entire wiring harness from a LT1 car, etc. Any missing parts? Does it need anything that maybe hasn't broke yet, but might in the next few miles, and cost you unbelievable amounts of money and grief (Hint: water pump)?

Don't kid yourself. That motor will eat every penny you have, and then some.

But it's your car and your money, that's the beautiful thing. You'll certainly learn alot from the experience.

I hope it works for you. Let us know how it turns out. Good luck to you.

tbfirebird

It has a 30 day warranty and it come with the wirring harrness and computer and i thought i heard that LT1's where tuff engines espically if they can take i think i heard like 200 hp shot of nos with factory internals/

Yep im pretty sure im going to go with the LT1 and T56 combo i really want that engine does anybody know any small details about it like can i use the same engine mounts and where can i buy a crossmember to mount the T56 in my 89 bird.Also will i have to beef up the rear end im not going to like drive it to the limit everyday like maybe once other wise im just going to drive it as my daily driver to work and back in summer and then when i get the money i'll put a 12 bolt or a 9inch ford.



Also anybody know what are the numbers i should be running in the 1/4 and how much horsepower to the rear wheels.


RB83L69
Theres no way im going to leave that stock exhaust maybe some duals. and i go to high school still so this being my last year of high school and takeing auto 3 this year and my auto teacher owns a transmission shop im pretty sure i'll have no problem putting the t56 in and the engine so the only thing i'll have to pay for is parts and no labor and ive got the pedals covered my dads friend works at a junk yard so ive got pedals reserved.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

the only thing i really hate about the lt1 is that damn opticrap system.

A few things youll need to get going:

-New fuel pump to replace the crap tbi one

-new fuel lines and any necessary tools to bend them
because the stock rubber lines int he engine compartment
wont hack it.

-Complete exaust system (a must with a 350)

-Electronic speedo and cal. module

-New cross member for the t56

-Trim plate for the console

-Probably want to put in a new water pump
and opti scrap cam postition sensor (dealer recommends
this every 60k because theyre so problematic) before you
put the engine in.

-gaskets, misc. hardware, sealer etc.

This alone is probably around 1k in parts. Make sure you get everything ahead of time before you do the install. Before you swap the engine out, its a good idea to lay everything out and make sure you have everything youll need ahead of time. Itll make the swap go much more smoothly.

tbfirebird

what did the ss camros come with in this web site theres a movie about 7 minutes long is that a lt1 engine under the hood.

trans87

My car passed with the ZZ4 and that's California SMOG check too. If I can get past the CA SMOG ***** with a ZZ4 in a 305 car you should have no problems

Timz2882

iTrader: (1)

hey My86Firebird i know people u can run almost as fast but with less mods. my brother ran a 15.5 with just headers and full exuast and a K&N filter and no smog crap. i think u wasted ur money on gettin the wrong parts that didnt match well with others and thats how u only go a 15.1. you just have to do reserch and make sure u buy the right parts.

jms

iTrader: (1)

From your description of your car (and dreams), my advice would be to sell the car, combine that money with what you've saved and buy something a little closer to what you really want.

Please take no offense to what I say. I'm only 47 years old, owned several dozen vehicles and built many, many hot street cars, race cars (drag & oval track), pull trucks, karts, etc.

You would (could) probably get $2,000 to $2,500 for your car (realisticly speaking). MAYBE more. But not much more.

The $3,200 saved added onto the $2,000 (or $2,500) would give you $5,200 (to $5,700) to spend on another car.

That kind of money will get you into serious performance if you look around. I've seen several asking prices, in that price range, on running LT1 Fourth-gens at camaroZ28.com and other sites.

If you wish to stay third-gen, that money would get you a very nice later model third-gen 'bird or 'maro. Most likely already running low 14s (or better).

From my experience, engine swaps (other than direct bolt-ins) usually cost 50% to 100% more than originally expected. Those 'nickel & dime' parts don't cost a nickel and dime anymore!

If you are 'attached' to your particular car, I could 'almost' seeing you stay with the current car.

However, money wise, you would be WAY ahed to sell your car and buy another.

Again, no offense.

jms

JesasaurusRex

iTrader: (3)

You must have the most mis matched up combo or running on 7 cyls or just the worst driver ive ever seen. My 305 (TBI) was faster than that with just full exaust and 3.73s. Dont listen 2 this guy. Now I have heads/cam/intake (havent been to the track yet) and have beat my friends 01 GT mustang (5 speed, w/ exaust and cold air intake) and a friends 4th gen z28 (donno year, stock) That is with my TBI injection off my 305 so it doesnt get **** for air. No tuning what so ever except for timeing advance. Throwing carb on this weekend and buying my nitrous kit. Who ever tells u a 305 wont move is just ignorant. However im no fool and the bigger the engine you can get the better. Once my bottom end goes (and it will with 164k on the ticker) imma get a 383 bottom end. However I should see low 12s with my 305 with probably 7-8k spend (including the car). Hope it works out 4 ya have fun:lala:

Guest

well i still have the stock V-6 rear end and a fuel pressure problem but still its not worth it to a 305

tbfirebird

None taken the car is in good condtion and i also want to keep it because this is my first car i got from my dad and he had a 72 firebird but wrecked it and is pretty attached to this car like me so selling it isnt a choice.
Also yeah i now about the little things that add up because my dads cousin is having a 41 ****** built he would do it him self but hes 65.



So i think im going to go with the LT1 And T56 also does anyone know a couple of points why the LS1 has so much more horsepower than the LT1 i think its like a 100hp difference is it because of the heads and compression?

THanks for all the replies.

Guest

you must be the biggest dick i have ever seen.

http://puma.dpg.devry.edu/~wrob2349/...firebird_2.wmv

R/T .083
60 2.193
330 6.266
1/8 9.266
MPH 73.26
1000 12.571
1/4 15.133
MPH 87.39

now look at the vid and say that.

its one that to say that i have a bad mix in parts but its something else to say i'm the worst driver you have ever seen.

tbfirebird

none taken the car has no rust beside that door missing the black plastic molding and im going to keep the car because my dad had a 72 and wrecked.And this is my first car he gave it to me so hes pretty attached to it also so im not going to sell it and everybody at my school loves the car.So i think im going to go with the LT1 T56 combo.Does anyone know why the LS1 has more hp is it because of the compression ratio and other little things.Because dosent the LS1 have like 100 more hp than the LT1.

Guest

yes 12's with a NOS kit. try with out a NOS kit and plus you have not been to the track so you really don't know... stop talking out of your *** and talk onces you have tested the car and have some numbers to show for it. (and a vid)

gmgod

I still say get the 350 HO crate engine/Vortec performer manifold. This would be a brand new engine with a warranty, an easy swap and would be faster than the LT1.

MrDude_1

that wouldnt be smog legal if he used a carb, and it wouldnt make nearly as much power if he put a "ultimate" TBI modded TBI on it.

in anycase, i think a guy that can save up that amount of cash in just 2 months can afford a complete LT1/T56 swap..... and still be able to mod the LT1 in a couple months.

SSBlueOx

No get a 350HO, street avenger carb, distributor, performer intake manifold, full exhaust and gears.

SSBO

Guest

the zz4 350 is a HO motor

biff85ta

Dude not to offend but something is not right your car would stomp me in the 1/8 but in the quarter we would be door to door here is what my best run looked like with my stock lb9 car

R/T .358
60' 2.106
330 6.223
1/8 9.637
mph 72.23
1000 12.603
1/4 15.106
mph 90.36

Seems you should be running faster maybe you have a few things to sort out.

P.S. not trying to flame you just seem like you numbers don`t quite add up to me.

Guest

thats cool. i know somethign is wrong with my car.... (right now the motor...BAD cracked head or something)

but i do have a fuel presure problem as soon at the car goes into 3rd. (thats why the 1/4 mile times SUCK) and also i did a v-6 to v-8 swap and i still have the stock V-6 rear end so that isn't helping much at all.

its one that to say that somethign is wrong with mny (witch i know there is) and its somethign else to say i'm a bad driver... i mean hellp at my MY R/T time and look at yours i was watching some top fuel drag raceing last not and there R/T's where like .100 the lowest i saw was .093 (but that was on a Pro tree)

88Camaro350

If I was youd Id get a decent GM crate motor like the 330hp HO motor. You could get the bare one and even TBI it if you wanted. Then I would get paint.

Im getting old (lol) Im going to go ahead and get the car painted and everything and worry about speed later.

Mark A Shields

from the last 2 time slips posted, know what redlighting is

JesasaurusRex

iTrader: (3)

Well this ******* atleast knows to post links with videos at the end of them. And I dont know what ur mad about, your time ****ing sux, ok its faster than a stock 305, however its still a ****ty *** time cant you get that through ur skull.

BORLAZ06

LMFAO!!!!!

i dont think willie has 20k into his 305

89IROCZZ4

I havent read everything in this post, but I have some advice to give to you: be patient and wait for a "super duper" deal. For example, I just bought a 468 big block AND 1200 hp tranny along with the car it was in for 2500. If you wait long enough, not only will you be able to get something to give your camaro more ooomph, but you will be able to make something that will fry anything else on the street

tbfirebird

ITS A FIREBIRD FORMULA

cfabe

I'd reconsider about the LT1. They're a nice engine but they're a pain to work on and can be more expensive than a normal sbc. You'd be farther ahead to get a crate motor and swap in a t56 later. The lt1 swap is going to nickle and dime you to death. It's just different enough that you're going to need to change a ton of other stuff in the car (electrical , fuel, cooling, power steering, a/c etc.)

tbfirebird

Dam........this blows i really want an engine thats cheap and close to 300 hp but with lots of room for more power adders and that can be supercharge and still pass emmssions.

cfabe

Depending on your level of ability you could get an l98 shortblock or long block and do upgrades to it. Should have no problem at all getting it up to 350 horses or so.

Riley's35089rs+

he is right ya know...But..if you do the swap..you will not be disa
pointed..

89IROCZZ4

umm....ok...a camaro with different bumpers

Riley's35089rs+

so whats wrong with 3:42's?

tbfirebird

and better looking beside the bumpers