Praetorian

Time for me to answer the big question of whether to park it or drive it this winter. I've had the car (my first Camaro) for about a year, she took a pretty nasty crash last winter and cost me $3500 to get back into shape. The accident was as much my stupidity as the fault of the car, and I didn't have very good tires or any weight in the back. This year the tires are a whole lot worse. I went over a patch of ice yesterday and straight onto the side walk, missing a yield sign by about 2 feet. Needless to say the car is parked now while I decide what do do.

I know these are just not good winter cars, and ideally shouldn't be driven. Problem is I'm poor and can't really afford to spend $1,000+ on a car that'll get me reliably through the winter, without selling the Camaro.


Questions..

1) Is there any way to get a Camaro as winter worthy as the average car?
2) How much do winter tires and sand bags really help?


I should mention I'm up in Canada, so the winter's here are pretty bad.

zippy

i found of the third gens i had that adding weight didn't help, but only made it sink faster in snow. i would say adding some blizzak's would help the situation some.

icebird_1981

get better tires and take it really slow, and never drive it when its snowing or the snow just stopped. some dude was saying that if u get really skinny adn tall tires are cars could plow through the snow no problem, i dont no about that one though. but i would think the skinner the better. also more people say the sand bags help then dont, i dont no personaly because i never tryed them. so just try it and u decide. the key thing though it to go really slow and make sure u have a good distance from the car infront of u. last year when snow first started to fall i was driveing home from work (this was also the first time i drove in snow) anyway the car infront made a stop and i hit the barke to hard and just started slideing. i knew i was going to hit him so i turned into the curb and my tire hit it makeing me do a 360. so never ever brake hard!! oh and if u do decide to drive it in the snow dont forget about rust proofing.

Vader

Narrow, tall snow tires. More tread pressure per square inch is what's necessary to help these cars hold the road. The phat 245/50-16s don't do well in snow, ice, or even rain on some surfaces.

A posi rear axle is actually a detriment to traction in these cars in marginal conditions.

zippy

without a posi, they don't even want to go forward. i wouldn't own one without it.

hydric

No crap on the 16's. It rains, my camaro is parked. The hydro-plain is so horrible.. One time I got caught in the rain and I was scared ****less, ppl behind me were pissed cause i was topping like 5 mph but anything else i felt a horrid jerk in the wheel.

Thats with stock 3.08 posi rear too

F-BIRD'88

Go to Wal-mart and buy the tallest skinest 15" front tires that will fit the wheelwells without scrubbing. We're talking a 27+" tall tire.

Do the same for the back only get some snow tires.
Put them on stock steel 15" GM rims.
Skinny is a 78 series tire. like P225-78-15
Get the thing Rust-Checked to keep it from rotting.

She's go through the snow like a Sherman tank.

The higher the front end is the better. if you can fit a 28.5" tall tire on it all the better.

Thirtybird

I drove my 87 V6 camaro through 3 winters without too much drama (Detroit's not the worst winter wise, but we have our moments). Only this last winter did I actually have decent tires on it. I'm going to make it through this winter with my new Z28, but I've got Continental Extreme Contact tires on it and will balance out the 350 with some extra weight in the back (to balance it front to rear)

Bandit5

I am gonna go with 205/70/15 snow tires from Tirerack.com. They are 26.3 inches tall, and as skinny as I want to go while still keeping good height. Though I think it is pointless for me since I have no ground clearance... the underbody of my car would act like a freaking plow. I am gonna have to park it when I see snow.

Slade1

Here's what i've learned in 7 years of winter camaro driving in Canada.

P215/65/R15 tires are your friend
If they are winter tires, ie Winter Slalom like what I have, they are life savers.

Weight in the back doesn't work nearly as well as proper tires do.

Practice the art of the fine foot control. Lead foot = join SUV driver in ditch for coffee and donuts.

Steer in the direction you want to go.

Never lock your tires, it is better to be rolling under control than sliding out of control.

There's a reason they have that bump to neutral feature for automatics.

Winter blades are cheap at costco.

This will be my first year with posi rather than open differential, so I'll tell how it goes later if I survive this winter.

Bandit5

I have also found, no matter what vehicle you are using when driving in the snow, to use a very soft touch on the brakes. Never EVER!!! put more than a pound or two of force on the brakes when you are braking and they lock up and you slide out of control. It is a real PITA to learn, cause you have to actually put less pressure ont he brakes when you want to stop.

Praetorian

Sounds like the winter tire thing is the way to go then, any suggestions on specific tires?

Also...will I be able to get away with keeping my best 2 performance tires on the front, or am I better off spending the extra money on all 4 winter?

zippy

i recomend the bridgestone blizzak ws-50. it is made in a 215/65r15. buying a set myself soon for my pickup. i've ran blizzaks for about the last 5 years in the snow, not much can be better without studes or chains. i also never add weight to any of my vehicles and have pretty much no problem. btw, go with all 4 since stopping and turning are just as important.

Vader

Hey, Zip -

Go park on some hard-packed snow or ice. Just take your foot off the brake, and don't even hit the "go" pedal. See what happens with a posi and phat tires...

Slade1

Its not the posi so much as the wide tread tires that make it really hard to move. Without posi, I would have to feather very lightly to get it to go forward, any more power and the passenger side would spin. I'm hoping a posi will allow me a little bit more leeway so I won't have to feather as much.

I had the misfortune of being caught in a freak snowstorm in late April with the summer tires on, and could not for the life of me make my own lines in the snow. Sure it would move, as to how fast, I was locked to a slow 20 mph as my top speed else the rear would break loose ahead of the front tires.

I heard good things about blizzak tires, but the winter slaloms are cheaper I think, and they work really well for me. go with what the wallet says works. Also don't scrimp, get 4 winter tires. 215/65/R15's are what I run, but if you want to go narrower, then by all means do it. More psi to a smaller area allows better snow grip.

zippy

i live in michigan and have driven 3 of my camaro's in the snow and all on the "wide" tires. two of them had posi's (both of them had comp ta zr's on them, 245/50R16). the non-posi one in peticular was fantastic, if i stopped on ice and let off the brake, it wouldn't move, just spin the one tire at idle speed. in the iroc i had, i ran 30psi in the front and 22 psi in the rear when it was snowy which tends to happen around here. oddly enough i usually have a winter ride also, but occasionally i'd end up driving them in the snow even on winter storm warning days.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I've driven my Camaro year-round since summer of '99. Last year I had 215/70/15 studded snows on 4 corners, best by far (handled horrible on dry, but hey...).

I've got GS-C's on it right now. It's been 26 degrees F and drizzle for the last two days. Yesterday wasn't a problem because Wednesday was 80 degrees and the roads were still warm. I'm about to head out for home right now, workplace is up on the side of the foothills in the clouds, steep hill back down to civilization, curvey road, etc.

If you never hear from me again, you'll know...

br()bert

Its snowing here in philly right now, i just drove my girlfriend to dinner and out for a bday present ,This is my first f body and my first time driving it in the snow, IT SUCKS ! My cars only a v6 but it has a 342 posi, and 235 65 15 tires, if i go over 15 on a road with a 35 speed limit my rear slides, almost every corner my car wants to go sideways, i think im gonna limit my driving till the snow is gone

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

We had a pretty good storm two weeks ago. I made it around, but it was a bit dicey.

Day after Thanksgiving when everybody's at the malls, I'm at the tire store getting 4 16x8 rims and a very nice set of 4 used, siped, 215R60x16 studded snows.

Hasn't snowed since...

Stingraye

Isn't that typical? As soon as you get good tires you don't have a chance to try them out. As Bert mentioned it's been snowin like crazy here around philly, gotten like 6" today, another 6-8" tomorrow, I was hopin to get my engine back in so I could go out in the snow and have some fun, but dosn't look like that's gonna get to happen this weekend. (Although, the last time I went out and "had some fun in the snow" there was an undercover cop sitting at the far side of the lot watching the opposite road when I started doin donuts (12:30 at night), yeah that was fun explaining, atleast he didn't ask about my open exhaust, no brake lights, no drivers sideview mirror, or drivers side windshield wiper, just told me to take it easy and drive carefully!)

FBird84

Last winter i drove the car in snow and i QUICKLY learned when and when not to hit the gas or press the brake. Recently i just learn not to drive on the freeway over 40 mph after or during rain. I'm lucky to be alive really. But i still love the car.

Stingraye

Just a lil side topic to this thread, make sure your brakes are not having any problems before you go out in the snow. This is my friend's car when is front right tire locked up and put him into an embankment.

Stingraye

And just make sure you pay attention in general! This is my car from last winter when a girl ran into my car when she just plain ole' wasn't payin attention. My car was parked on the side of the street in front of my friends (friend from the last pic) house.

rjmcgee

My wife is driving an 89 RS this winter. I got a set of studded tires for it and made some weights for it. I cut out a bunch of flights in a conveyor at work and saved them. They are 1/2 inch plate about 3"x 6" and each one weighs between 3 and 4 lbs. I had 63 of these and welded them together in bunches of 10. I put 2 bunches behind each front seat and 2 in the well. Took it out the other night when we had a few inches of snow and it went pretty good. Stopped good too.

All the snow going tires in the world can't make up for the lack of common sense though. Cars don't just crash because it is slick.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I've driven past a lot of 4x4's in the ditch the last 4 winters...

Air_Adam

I had to drive my Z28 last winter... it sucked to say the least. No posi made it kick out the tail every time I wanted to move, the brakes don't work (well, they work, just too powerful for Canadian snow).

I've learned that engine braking if you have a manual tranny works well for slowing and stopping though, as well as driving one gear too high when accelerating (ie. start off in 2nd)

zippy

funny this topic came back up. just got my new blizzaks yesterday.

Gumby

If you can afford two sets of tires, that is the best way but my self I have just one set.

I run Dunlop SP Sport 5000's
An all weather Z rated [165 mph] tire 35-52 psi range.

I do have a T5 but the last two winters in NW Ohio were no problem. Only real problem was everyone going so slow. I could stop and turn like normal.

I would rather have some skinny tires for just the front in the deep snow. It does help you track and especially cross lanes with big humps of snow.

But if I had the money Id have two sets of tires. But right now I just stick with a high speed all weather tire.

SSC

I dont think 3rdgens are bad on snow. The driver is more likely to be at fault.

Last year I drove my car durring the winter. I had no probelms driving in snow up to about 6 inches any more and my air dam plowed the snow for the city for free. I used my stock 235 65 14's and they did fine until the tread mysteriously vansihed on dry days. Then I pulled the studded 15's off the 68 doner t-bird (chevy bolt pattern) white wall out on cheap craigers with a gold knock offs on. The snow tires helped when turning on ice but not much of a difference.

Theres only one trick to driving durring the winter and thats go slow. Just because some other driver is speeding along doesent mean you should to. I dont know how many 4x4's and other cars Ive seen over the past few years rolled over in ditches. Some things you cant help, like when another driver plows into you but as long as it isnt you doing the hitting you did all you could.

icebird_1981

for this problem alone i might lookin to buy a suv for a daily driver and keeping my z for raceing. i am sick of always haveing to hide from snow i want something that i can drive in anything, pluse my car eats up WAY WAY to much gas for a daily driver. i just feel like i am abuseing her driveing her as a daily driveri am sure some feel the same way, one thing is for shure i will have my Z till i die. monday i start the hunt for a suv, wish me luck. and good luck to the people driveing this winter i suggest never driveing it in a snow storm or in high snow. oh and watch those wheel wells for salt rust forms there so flippin fast!

JP84Z430HP

The ONLY reason's I don't drive my car everyday are fuel mileage and corrosion. I've NEVER had an issue driving the Camaro in the snow, and would never be afraid to keep up with most anyone out there driving on snow. I doubt I'll be attempting it though, I have 2 other vehicles for everyday use, because the camaro has seen enough salt. Shucks, I don't even like to take it out in the rain because the paint has seen enough of it! As I said, I have driven it in bad weather, and have NEVER been afraid. I currently have BFG Comp T/A VR4's on it, and they are awesome in the rain. I didn't wander out in it in the snow last year though. Maybe I'll have to try it out this winter.....

JP84Z430HP

I also have to agree with those that are saying that it all depends on the driver. I would say that 90% of it is the driver. A good driver can drive a thirdgen through some pretty bad stuff.

I also have driven right past the 4X4 SUV's sitting in the ditch, all the while laughing to myself!

cali92RS

Snow?? Ive heard of it, but i thought it was just a fairy tale.

Ken

JP84Z430HP

I sure wish it was just a fairy tale! Last winter was pretty tough, and they're saying that this winter is supposed to be even worse.

It's something to see snow plowed on both sides of the road so high that it is over most vehicles roof's. I know other areas are used to this, but it's not all that often we get stuff like we had last winter.

johnblacksox

I started running studded snow tires in the winters here in MA 3 years ago, and it's awsome.

With regular "winter" tires, my rear wheels would still spin with no traction no matter how much weight I put in back.

The last straw was when my car was immobilized on an icy driveway with like a 1 degree steep grade.

With studs on the car I have traction all the time, ice, snow, etc. The only thing that stops me now is when snow gets much above 6 inches, the car start to bottom out.

LetsRock

One thing you can do that will trump all these ideas is learn to drive in these conditions the best you can, in the early am go to an empty school parking lot or of the like and see what your car does or doesnt do in icy or snowy conditions (dont go nuts now) figuring out the limits of your car keeps you from keeping mr SUV driver company in the ditch!

JP84Z430HP

Well said! I agree with that, no matter what you drive! Knowing the limits of your car is what will help you th emost in ANY driving situation.

As a side note, I was thinking about getting my Camaro out of the garage tomorrow, but looking the the 1-2 inches of white crap on the ground, and thinking about the salt that will be out down to melt it, I think I'll leave it in the garage, over it's puddle of power steering fluid....

FrozenFirebird

Id have to agree with everyone thats telling you to get some nice studded tires, and go out and get some practive driving in the snow and on ice. I drove my firebird for 3 years and never really had a problem. Its almost all in the driver.

and about the posi thing, I prefer a posi myself. It seems to be more predictable on the ice and you learn what to expect and how to counter, that, and the addition of one more wheel propelling you helps out a lot too.

FastElectrics

Personally I'd park it for the winter.. even if you are a good winter driver.. with all those other bad drivers it's not worth the risk.. Heck we do not even have snow here right now.. only way up in the mountians.. But if it's the only car you have.. then I guess you have little choice.. Do what you can to properly equip the car for the road conditions.

ploegi

Studs are not legal for use on public roads in Michigan. Damn.

Thirdgens do indeed suck in adverse weather conditions. Tires, and some weight will help, but, it only improves it a little. (having been driving my firebird in the michigan winters for the last several years........ without an accident, or the need for a tow truck.... and I have a 323 posi rear. 7000R4, I feel that I have some clue about this....) However, having stated that, I must admit that I did drive my firebird to work (35 miles, one way, back roads) after getting 8 inches of the nasty white stuff overnight, and yes, I did make it to work, three hours later...... I also noticed that the front air damn (for the radiator) is rather a good snow plow......

The idea of going to an empty parking lot and "playing" is an excellent idea. No better way to learn the limits than in an area with no consequences......

Praetorian

Thanks to everyone who replied, it's definitely given me lots to think about. I called a Tirecraft a few weeks ago and asked what it'd cost to outfit my car with 4 winter tires...wow...$586.

In regards to the parking lot thing- I completely agree. Doing that last year saved me from more than 1 accident, I have no doubts. Well worth a $400 "stunting" ticket, if I ever happen to get one.

The car (or me) is still terrible. I put about 175 pounds in the back and it hasn't seemed to have made much of a difference. What's worrying me this year is that it's sliding out on what look to be 95% ice/snow free roads, and on straightaways now instead of just turns. Last year the car slid insanely while turning- which was fine since it was always predictable.

I need new tires in the spring, that much is obvious. I don't have the money, unfortunately, to buy a set of winter tires now and performance tires in 3 months...so the decision has now become 'all weather, or performance?'.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Snow sucks! I'm glad I live in Texas now!

breathment

at least with the 4x4 it makes it easier to get out of the ditch once the snow melts

8Mike9

If you're on a budget, and don't mind the hassle, use tirechains/cables.

Thirtybird

Thindgens are not that bad in the snow if your car is set up for four season driving. Good, all season tires, stock height springs, good shocks, etc...

In my life I've driven a 78 TA, an 89 calais, a 96 TA, an 87 camaro and a 91 Z in Michigan winters, and the worst car was the 96 TA. The 87 camaro was almost as good as the FWD calais, and I'm sad to be giving her up this year...

pvt num 11

Ha, I WISH I had snow... Hawai'i doens't get anything but rain. Aquatreads take care of that, though... Since it rains EVERY stinking day where I live, I leave them on.

Praetorian

Just a quick update..

I managed to get 2 used Blizzaks from the local shop here. Cost of the tires plus all the balancing and installation and everything came to $60. Quite a step down from the $132 per tire they quoted me for a new set.

What_a_difference...It's like driving a whole new car. If anyone else is tussling with the idea of winter tires, I couldn't recommend it more. Best $60 I've ever spent.

TurboSteve

My first third gen was an '89 A4 TBI Formula with Goodyear Gatorbacks. The tires generally sucked, but i think i made up for them with better driving. I often found myself passing many a front wheel drive car. I only had my license for about two years, but learing to drive in the snowbelt in northeastern Ohio helps.

With my current car, Project Blue Thunder in GMHTP, i had my stock 16-inch wheels and got a deal on two unused Blizzak WS-50 tires. I think they are 235/55-16s. I didn't add any weight to the back end, but those tires worked like a charm. The only problems i had were from not having a set on the front. I had to drive in some bad snow and up some decent hills where i live in north Jersey and never got stuck. Except when i had changed back to the KDW and we got snow in April. The car wouldn't move and inch with just a light dusting of snow. You don't want to be putting on your snow tires when its 20 degrees and blowing snow on you.

This year, i've managed to commute with my wife in her WRX on the two bad snow days we've had, so i haven't switched tires yet.

Both Discount Tire Direct and Tire Rack have winter tire/wheel specials. You may also notice that most of the snow tires don't come in very wide sizes. If you can fit 15-inch rims on your car, you can probably get a set cheap from your local auto recycler and then buy the snow tires. Wal-Mart, as much as i hate to promote them, may even have a good deal on quality snow tires.

Follow these suggestions from Slade1 also:

(Practice the art of the fine foot control. Lead foot = join SUV driver in ditch for coffee and donuts.

Steer in the direction you want to go.

Never lock your tires, it is better to be rolling under control than sliding out of control.)

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

There had to be a lot of velocity involved there to cause that kind of damage. Snow was a minor detail.