84BLKBiRD

Very simple...I want to get my 84 Trans Am from about 380-420 hp with a good amount of torque to match.

I have the suspension installation first, but after that I am going to the engine.

Right now I am running a 305. This car is my daily driver, so I need it to be streetable. What would be the cheapest approach to meeting my goal?

We all are cost efficient here, so I want to make sure I don't waste money making an engine by trial and error. So if someone could please give me a good setup for whichever engine they suggest, that would save me loads of time and money.

BTW...I did do a search on the board and just came up with a bunch of 305 vs 350 posts. So I am not trying to be lazy, I just couldn't find anything. Thanks for the help.

Morley

A 350 with a 250 shot of N02, simple and "cheap" (compared to a supercharger or turbo) But you'll need to build the bottom end to handle that 250 shot.

ede

350 and a power adder

cgb

Okay I'll disagree here


Sure, a good 350 and a nitrous hit will get you there...but trust me...after you have that bottle in the car, it gets addictive and expensive ( refills ) so it adds up..


If you don't have to deal w/ emissions ( keeping computer controlled carburetor for example...) it's pretty simple to reach..


First off try to find a 400 to build..they can still be found in running trucks / wagons / family type cars from the 70's...if you can't find one...just use a 350.


My recipe for SIMPLE, CHEAP


Buy a new GM crate 350 , just the plain jane $1000-$1200 replacement Goodwrench 350.

Sell the heads off it...you can get $200-400 easy in the local classified or to local machine shops as trade.. ( not everyone cares about performance, they just need some good cylinder heads ...)


So let's say you're in for $900 now.

Shop around, but even new you can score the Vortec heads, intake and all the stuff you need for around $700 or so. Upgrade the springs for a tad bigger cam.



With headers, a good exhaust system, the vortec heads, intake, the right cam, and a tuned carb, there's no reason you can't make 350-390 HP ( flywheel ) in a reliable drive-everyday pump gas friendly combo w/ lots of low end grunt to boot.


I put together a Vortec heads 355 last year out of stuff I had laying around ( picked up the heads used for $100 from a boneyard, cost me another $175 for a valve job and getting the seats cut of for bigger springs etc ) Cam was a Summit cam, intake was a Weiand single plane, carb was a rebuilt Q-Jet, headers etc...

That motor was sold to a friend's son for his late 70's Camaro...

At the time we had access to a flywheel dyno at a shop we frequented ( owner has since passed away and his son's sold out ...they weren't car guys ) and we strapped in on one night, and after tuning we got 370 HP out of it and a good amount of torque.

I'm positive with more tuning, it would have been better...

Not bad for less than $1200 invested and just my time....

Chris89GTA

iTrader: (2)

380-400 at the crank or the wheels? I didn't see you specify. I know that people refer think of it as to the wheels, so maybe I am asking a dumb question...

RB83L69

The Vortec option is certainly one way; but I don't think I'd do it with a phone-company van replacement short block (i.e. the cheapest thing you can buy to put a disabled fleet vehicle back on the road).

To get 400 HP out of a 350 means you have make your HP peak in the range of 5500-6000 RPM. A better short block than that would be in order, if you want long-term risk-free survival. I'd recommend at the very least a set of better rod bolts.

It's also a whole lot easier to make high power with more compression than that short block (with its cheap low-compression dished cast pistons) will give when combined with those heads.

84BLKBiRD

Thank you for all the responces.

I am not looking for the nitrous approach to it. This is going to be daily driver and I tend to be "trigger happy". Wouldn't be very cost efficient lol.

I hadn't ever thought about the crate engine idea. I always assumed I would go to the local U-Pick and take it from an old van.

My two top idea are probably the crate engine idea or the 400. But thinking about it, I don't know if I want to risk running a 30 year old block from some pickup as my daily driver. Last year for that production of 400s was like 78 or 79 right? Not very sure at all.

Anyway, keep the idea coming guys. Also, if there are any other setups other than the Vortec approach, please post it up. I am sure many people will be doing search on the forum later on and they might run into this post for info So lets pack it full so that you are never asked this again lol.

P.S. When I said 400 HP I meant it at the rear wheels. So if you get 370 at the flywheel, isn't that like 310 to the rear wheels?

Chris89GTA

iTrader: (2)

So roughly you are looking to put out 490 at the crank.

IMO you would need

-AFR or TFS heads preferably ported, but at least smoothed out runner etc.
-230/236 cam or bigger. The bigger the better chance of 400 to the wheels.
-Short runner intake and good matching carb


My combo should put 380 or so to the wheels and I am running TFS heads, a 227/233 cam on a 355 w/ a modified LT1 intake.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

As the old saying goes, "Tell me how much money you have, and I'll tell you how fast you can go."

There's always this route: http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...120&pid=156334 . Of course you're going to have to add an intake manifold & 1-3/4" headers. But, even with a dual-plane intake (which costs 15-20 HP from the single-plane they used for the advertised HP), you're still over your 400 mark.

With a 12-month warranty, too.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Oops, you're thinking RWHP.

Never mind...

Morley

420 RWHP isn't going to do well as a daily driver. Sure it will run on the street but maintenance and up keep is going to be murder, not to mention all those tickets.
At least with N02 you can turn the bottle off when not in use and save some ticket money, but with that HP always on tap you're going to get in real trouble with the law...since as you said you are "trigger happy".

GASGZLR

I've gotta be honest and tell you that if you want 400 RWHP out of a smallblock it will NOT be very streetable, or if it is it will NOT be cheap I would say that your best bet is to do something like this:
Summit 383 crank,rods, forged pistons- $ 1,099
find an old 350 block have it machined- $5-600
Get some Dart Iron Eagle Heads 215's- $999
234 244 SOLID roller cam with like .550 lift-?
Roller rockers
Single plane intake
Holley 750 Double Pump carb
MSD distributor
Hooker 1 3/4 longtubes

I am not sure exactly how much power this will make it depends on the compression, my friend with this setup has 11:1 with his ironheads and pumpgas. It doesn't ping at all cause we are at 5500 feet. My friend's 86 IROC runs high 11.9-12.0 on pump gas and streets with this setup. He is almost a whole second faster than me and I have 405 HP at the crank. I would say he has close to or more than 400 hp at the wheels. If you want 405(425 with a single plane and longtubes) at the motor, just build up your motor like mine for UNDER 3,000. I can run 12.7 w/slicks and a slipping 3rd gear automatic. Hoping to go 12.7 on streets after Manual Trans swap.

Morley

With the above set-up you're looking at roughly 450 HP at the fly wheel and almost 490 ft/lbs of torque.

CaptPicardsZ28

My two top idea are probably the crate engine idea or the 400. But thinking about it, I don't know if I want to risk running a 30 year old block from some pickup as my daily driver. Last year for that production of 400s was like 78 or 79 right? Not very sure at all.

Ummm. My 400 was rebuilt by a professional machinist who builds racing engines. Its from a 71 Chevy p-up. It works fine and I race with it. If done right and well it will last a loooong time!

88IROC350TPI

I'd say decently built 350, vortec heads, xe274 cam, and spray. Daily drivable, relatively low-budget. Drive it around on motor all week long, come saturday night turn the bottle on and hold the heck on. mid 11's with ease.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Or, you could build a cheap carb'ed 468 (454 with .030 over bore). Get a mild big block cam and an edlebrock air gap intake and you are done. You'll have all the HP and torque you want.

RaGe

Pick up an LT1 used motor and t56 trans (if you need a trans) from trans am creations for around $2500-$2800 and get LT4 Hotcam kit ($500) and custom tune...would put you at about 340hp at the wheels with proven cheap parts. Or spend another $100 and get the CC305 or CC306. If you still want 400 at the wheels get a bottle. Also get ready for a new rear end.

Also do a re-ring and bearings if you are concerned with mileage or pay a little more for a low mileage motor.

Hard to beat a complete fuel injected motor setup for that cheap.

F-BIRD'88

You can't buy this engine but you can build it or have it built.
Compression ratio is 10.3:1. uses 92 to 94 octane gas.

It's a straight forward basic 2 bolt .030 over 350 with flat top hypereutectic pistons. You can even use a stock 350 cast crank.
use stock 350 truck rods ("K rod")
The block has to be decked to achieve a "O deck height"
(About a .045" cut") this is the only critical part
of a very standard rebuild .
use Federal Mogul HP345NP pistons. And standard moly
rings. set the top ring gap on the high limit (bigger than stock).

Use ARP rod bolts. All other bolts are stock GM.
Dart 215cc 64cc cast iron heads (iron eagle)
summit #DRT-10521122
It is recomended that you disassemble, inspect
and clean up the ports and contour the valve guide bosses. heavy porting is not required.
Isky solid flat tappet cam#ISK-201549 (Summit part
number) must degree in the cam.
Use a standard cloyes roller timingchain and gear set.
Gear drives cost HP.
Crane Blue racer aluminum roller rockers
Jegs#270-WG3062 7/16" studs heads must have 7/16" studs. these are just as good as the gold rockers, just a different color. less$$$
Edelbrock Vic JR #2975 (you must hand port match this manifold to the cylinder heads.)
Holley 750cfm #4779 carb, stock 70-80jetting. 3.5" power valve.
use long 1-5/8" tube headers+ minumum 2.5" dual exhaust.
A StockGM HEI distributor/ MSD coil) with "locked out" mechanical advance. set timing at 34-36deg.
(you can retain and use the vacuum advance for street driving)
This is a basic street racer/ bracket motor that will make the power with reliability you're looking for for minimum $$$
It has a rough idle and low manifold vacuum.
But will drive fine when warmed up.
A overdrive trans is useless behind this motor.
Get a th350 trans and a 3500+stall 9" or 10" converter.
minimum 4.10:1 gears.

The RPM range is 3500 to 6800. valve lash is .016"/.016"
set it once in a while
11sec quarter miles in a basic Fbody.

200HP of NOS will put you well into the 10's (race gas only)
No computer chip required

84BLKBiRD

Thank you everyone for all the input.

And F-BIRD'88,

Thank you very much for such an exact explanation on the setup. I was looking to go automatic using the 350 Transmission as well but i hadn't mensioned it. I will be building it myself to save me some money. Any advice on how to make that setup build a complete success? Anything special you had to do?

Again thank you all for the input. Now I will not be bothering anyone for a long time I now have my suspension setup and the engine. I guess from here we go to audio lol.

Oh yea, I will be posting this later on if I can't find it in the search...but any ideas for weight reduction? I always thought my car weighed 3400 lbs but when I looked at the sticker on the door it said 4100 lbs. I didn't know the car weight so much. Maybe I read it wrong.

(Someone posted before I was able to edit this, but I found all the info I needed for weight reduction through a search of the forum.) Thank you though

I saw someone mension Speed Glass? Does that cost too must and does it help significantly reduce weight? I know the back hatch on my 84 Trans Am weighs a freaking ton. I always assumed it was the big *** glass. Thanks again.

RB83L69

The car doesn't weigh that much.... that's the "gross vehicle weight".... the car with a full load of fuel and the rated amount of passengers & cargo. Basically, what the tires have to be able to support.

MrDude_1

take whatever stock motor you have now


put a small roots blower on it.

the blower + low cowl hood + headers will be around $2200 total running if you look around. 2300 ish if you buy a new carb.

daily driver reliable still, and the power in a reasonable manner.

def cheaper then building a new motor.





btw, theres nothing wrong with a 400 production block... even though they're old... its a chunk of metal. either its good or its not. regardless of age. a properly rebuilt 400 is just as good as a brand new crate motor.... matter of fact, going off old racer terms and ideas, a "seasoned" used block is better for power then a fresh casting...


just remember to keep everything in check, work it ALL out first, and in a daily driver, beef up the drivetrain BEFORE you put the motor in.

RaGe

Thats quite a motor setup F-BIRD'88... I'd go that route if I was looking to go carbed without overdrive.

Nothing like asking for a proven combo and getting just that in details...

Ricktpi

400 RWHP + Daily Driver = Large Displacement 400 cubes or better. How do you feel about a big block? A mild 454 would meet your goals.

Chris89GTA

iTrader: (2)

I have a tendency to disagree w/ you on that one. My measly 355 should be 370-380 to the wheels w/ out of the box heads TFS heads, a 227/233, and an LT1 intake. I feel confident that w/ a bigger cam say a 236/242 and having the heads ported I could put 400 to the ground w/ the 355 throgh the A4. Its all about the combo though and having the cam matched to the flow #s in the heads, exhaust, intake etc...

Yes the bigger cubes would make it a whole lot easier to do w/ a smaller, more idle friendly cam... but I guess my idea of "daily driver" and drivability is more than most of the people on this board.

I say that w/ a 383, short runner intake, 236/242 cam, and good flowing heads 400 is possible...

RB83L69

The cheapest way would have to be a flat-top 350 short block built from a truck motor, zero-decked; the stock crank & rods from that motor, with better rod bolts and F-M hypereutectic pistons; a set of Vortec heads with some light bowl work; cut the top of the valve guides down about .050" and enlarge the spring pockets to 1.45", and install Manley Street-Flo valves; a Comp XE274H, 987 springs, and 1412 rockers; a Performer RPM manifold; and a Holley 750 manual secondary carb. Cutting the block to zero deck and enlarging the spring pockets would be about the only special machine work required.

Chris 96 WS6

RB, I think Vortecs with bowl work just aren't going to flow enough for 400rwhp. Chris89GTA is more on target IMO.

For example, Total Engine Airflow sells a "400hp" package for LT1s, consisting of a set of stock LT1 heads fully CNC ported with 2.00/1.56 valves and a comp XE 230/236 cam. In m6 cars it has been dyno proven to 400rwhp +/- a few ponies.

That is with heads that flow 285/195 roughly. I don't see bowl ported Vortecs flowing nearly as much as that. Obviously its going to require either a carb as you said or a short runner EFI setup to simulate what an LT1 package would do.

To approximate that package on an automatic car is going to mean about 385hp due to converter slippage. You might get the 15hp back from the carb/manifold setup but I think its going to take either more cam or more cubes. A set of fully ported TFS or AFR heads and a 233/239 from Combo Motorsports might do 400 to the ground in a 355, but that much cam is beginning to be unstreetable in an A4 car.

88IROC350TPI

Doesn't Comp Cams recommend the 981-16 spring for XE274? If so thats drop-in size, would further lower your build-up costs ...but, I guess going with the bigger spring wouldn't be a bad idea.

Also my vortecs have .54X clearance before the retainer touches the seal. I'm not sure of the exact tolerances but with .487/.490 lift you should have plenty of clearance (more $$ saved). But, once again, might be a good idea to to it now for if you ever upgrade the cam.

88IROC350TPI

Are you talking rear-wheel or flywheel HP? Vortecs with the XE274 have been proven time and time again to make well over 400HP. Theres a buncha guys deep in the 12's and some in the 11's with 'em ...even in stock form.

Chris 96 WS6

I am talking rwhp because I thought that's what he wanted. Maybe I missread.

Chris89GTA

iTrader: (2)

RB he means RWHP...

That is why the Vortecs simply won't cut it...

Chris89GTA

iTrader: (2)

Show me where mild ported vortecs have put down 400 rwhp w/ the xe274 cam and I will belive you. I could be wrong, but I just don't see that combo making that much power. Hell like Chris 96 said, LT1 heads flowing in the 280 range w/ a 230/236 is barely making 400 to the wheels.

84BLKBiRD

Yep...there is nothing like having a proven setup posted for ya all nice and pretty. That is why I think I am going with that setup. If worse comes to worse, I will get my engine running 320 horses to the rear wheels and do what I have always been dreaming of doing...running a blow-thru carb turbo setup. Which would not only be cool, but would meet my needs. Good likelyhood that I will be running the setup listed though.

robbob

How about a ls1 and a supercharger. or a ls1 and Motor Sport Tech's 475 hp head and cam kit?

RaGe

Weren't the vortec heads based on the iron LT1 heads which flowed better than the early aluminum LT1 heads anyhow?

Point being that I think with the vortec/xe274 combo you could expect to see 380-400hp at the wheels with the right amount of luck!

and I also think with an LS1 you could probably get your 400hp at the wheels with just a cam and MAYBE port work.

Chris89GTA

iTrader: (2)

You guys can say the Vortecs and the 274 will get close to 400 rwhp all day long, I just personally don't see it. When I see a dyno graph of it I will believe it.

As for the LS1 and the cam, yeah that is extremely possible to hit 400 to the wheelw w/ just a cam in those cars. heck their heads flow 255 stock. The cams those guys run are huge though, and most of the time requre the pistons to be flycut to allow proper piston/valve clearance. Texas Speed and Performance has a cam right now that is like a 231/327 that they are claiming 400+ to the wheels w/ stock heads and no tricks like removing the belt and such. I have seen it w/ smaller cams, but w/ less accessories and such.

Chris89GTA

iTrader: (2)

n/m

Chris 96 WS6

Well, yeah, the ports are the same as the LT1 Iron's, but the iron LT1s only outflowed the aluminums by 3-4 cfm, not exactly a huge change in airflow.

Bowl ported vortecs are going to flow about the same as bowl ported LT1s. I used to have a set of GTP Stage 1 LT1's that were exactly that, bowl ported. They flowed 238/185 or there abouts, again, that just isn't enough airflow for 400rwhp when you compare it to TEA's heads I mentioned above in their 400rwhp package. Vortecs would work but they'd have to be fully ported, runners and all, to reach those flow levels.

Stock LT1's only flow 208-215cfm intake.

Anyone have the specs on this 274 cam? I'm used to quoting cams by duration specs.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Actually, vortec / fast-burn heads were based off of the LT-4 casting, not LT-1.

If you have enough intake air flow, and proper fueling, it's easy to make 400 to the wheels with a set of ported vortec / fast-burn heads.

88IROC350TPI

Heh, this thread is gonna go on forever and ever... The fact is everyone has a 400+HP combo in their head. Either way you choose, in the end a carbed small block is going to cost the least. Guys suggesting LS1's must have a different defination of "cheap"

Whatever route you chose it should be based on simple and effective parts that are easily available in the used market... Heres a combo that is very low budget and runs very very strong. A friend of mine has a 3500lb car with:

- 400sbc, std bore, stock crank and rods, KB hyper flat tops, about 11:1 compression.
- Untouched (port wise) Vortecs. He had screw in studs and guideplates installed so he could use cheaper rocker arms (1.5 rollers)
- Comp Cams XS282 solid camshaft
- 750 VS Holley carb, Victor Jr Intake
- 1 5/8" headers 2 1/4" duals
- stock TH350 with unknown milage behind a $30 used 3000RPM B&M converter.
- Runs fine on 93 octane

NO carb tuning aside from a lighter secondary spring he went 12.8 @ 108mph with a 3.73 OPEN rear and 215 street radials out of a junkyard (1.9 60 ft). We are very confident this car will run 11's on motor with tuning, suspension work, and sticky tires. This car has under $2500 into the ENTIRE CAR!

It looks like something outta the junkyard, old beatup mufflers sound like crap, suspension has like 300,000 miles on it, car even has steel rims with hubcaps! You wanna go fast for cheap thats one way of doing it ...and I mean CHEAP

RaGe

Its all in perspective I guess... when you consider that you can pick up a complete long block with no induction for $2200 (GM 350HO) thats cheap.

Add your carb, intake, and balancer and you'd maybe be at $3k.

Now considering you can score LS1s with low mileage, complete multiport induction systems, and an auto for $3500-4k on EBAY... I think the LS1 is approaching cheap... now I realize that you'll have another grand into installing it... but its all your perspective and what your looking for.

At that point your still not at 400 horse at the wheels...but one hell of a setup none the less.

Me personally... I bought a 90k miles 1993 LT1 that will use my stock 700r4 (for a short period) and a 10 bolt out of a 2002.. Thats cheap. Its not 400 rwhp either though.

Not making a very good point here... other than I agree with everyone on all the setups. They'll all work. From the big cammed 355 setup with Dart heads to the Vortec setup with the xe274 (which I would think would be slightly milder...)

The other thing debatable is the "streetability" of all the above combinations that are posted.

Some say 400rwhp is fine for a daily driver...some disagree...

I would glady drive a blown big block 3rd gen to work and home every day if I could afford the gas! (and the motor setup for that matter)

88IROC350TPI

Thats still a little skretchy to me.. You spend $4 on a motor off Ebay not really knowing anything about it. Then you spend a ton of money on shipping it, then if you don't have any fabrication skills you gotta find someone willing to make it fit. Then, once its in you pray it actually runs and the end result is a 320HP motor. Sure I'd love to have an LS1 in my car because they are great motors BUT its just never going to happen because the dollar-to-performance ratio isn't there for me ...I'd consider a GN motor before I considered an LS1

Its just that a standard carbed SBC has so many easily available parts for cheap. I'd say my entire motor cost me $2800 carb to pan. Its got beefy internals, and quite a few new parts that I coulda found used for a lot less if needed. I havent been to the track yet but I wouldn't be suprised if it ran 12.50's or better on motor and well into the 11's on a hit. Take the slicks off and my car is daily drivable rain or shine. No fancy electronics, no exotic powerplant, just a buncha standard widely available parts that match.

Morley

And some of us don't want to go backwards in time, we'd rather go forward.

Chris 96 WS6

1 5/8th headers are a waste of time and a waste of HP on a 400rwhp combo. Ever stop to think about why the only company that makes a 1 5/8ths for LT1's is Edelbrock? Everything else is 1 3/4th. For 400rwhp I'd suggest longtubes if they can be packaged effectively. Why build such a stout motor and choke it off with small primaries?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Okay, another dumb question: Where did "400 RWHP" come from?

Tossing out numbers like that doesn't necessarily mean that the number itself is significant. I'd much rather address questions such as, "What engine/mods to acheive 1x.xx in the 1/4?", or, "What engine/mods will result in good 1/4 mile performance but still allow streetability?"

Even they are somewhat arbitrary, but at least you have an idea what goals are behind the question.

I have no idea if achieving 400 RWHP will achieve the desired goals - for all I know you're simply looking for placard data for your car show display.

Chris89GTA

iTrader: (2)

I agree five7kid, but he asked for a combo that will result in 400 rwhp so that is what I have been trying to advise him on...

F-BIRD'88

Chris: Actually on this motor combination I discribed,
The motor was indifferent to the size of the headers
primary pipe. Both 1-5/8" and 1-3/4" headers were tested on the dyno. Didn't make much of a difference.
The 1-5/8" headers made more average torque.
And cost a lot less.

88IROC350TPI

Heres another great combo that my friend discovered a few years back... He had a stock 350 laying around in his garage for years so they decided to rebuild it just for a "beater motor" stock crank, rods, and pistons, assembled with good hardware, only machine work was the block was 0-decked. He had a set of old iron GM 441 heads that had 2.02/1.60 valves, milled to 62cc, and had a good amount of porting done to them (like 10.5:1 compression). Used a Crane Saturday Night Special solid camshaft: 244/252 @ 050, .518/.536 lift, 106LSA with 1.5 roller rockers. Victor Jr intake with a 850 Holley DP, 1 3/4" long tubes with 3" duals. Used a pretty beefy TH350 with a 3500RPM stall, 4.11 gears and 27x11.5" Hoosier QTP's. Car was pretty light weighed in at 3100lbs with driver.

Shifting at 6000RPM this puppy went 11.7's on motor and 10.60's on a 150 shot hanging the tires a foot in the air off the line As I already said, sometimes the most basic stuff works the best. Who cares if you're stuck with old technology, it works great and doesn't cost a fortune.

84BLKBiRD

I would like to thank every single one of you that took the time to reply with your suggestions and setups on this post. And if more suggestions come along, please post them for everyone to read.

BowtieDriver2

keep your 305 and read this:

www.highoutput.com/tech/400hp/400hp.html

Not rwhp but cheap.

destroyer1

This info is awesome!!! I will definitely use it for my own 350 build. I was just curious, what type of lifters do you guys use? I've heard all kinds of things from many people but I'm just not sure which way to go (aiming for about 400crank horsepower). It Seems that all of the cams I have seen for retro-fit roller lifter blocks don't have a very good rpm range compared to the xe274 or similar grinds for flat tappet lifters. Do the roller cams just give alot of hp in their smaller range or what?

--Keep this thing going, it has tons of awsome info!