acidpad

So, about 2 years ago, i bought a 400 from a buddy, less intake on up. It was running before he sold it to me, it had just gotten "tired" as he put it. It has been sitting in my garage since, and I would like to start getting it up and running. I am pretty sure that the engine is completely stock, and the block is a 2 bolt.

I dont know a whole lot about rebuilding / building motors, but im gonna toss out there what I think i should do after reading through just about every post on here about building a 400, and I'd like to get some feedback from some of you that know more about it than i do.

I am trying to keep this fairly budget conscious, and have it work on pump gas, preferably 87 octane, if i need 91, i need 91.

First, I think i should have it bored .030 over to get the cylinder walls cleaned up. At that time, should I also have it honed, magnafluxed, and hot tanked ?

The stock crank from what i can tell will do just fine for my application. Is there any machine work that should be done to the stock crank before I start the buildup ? With the stock crank, and the .030 over bore, that should put me at a 406 im pretty sure.

I think a rebuild kit for a 4.155 " bore from summit with dished pistons would do. Should I actually buy a rebuild "kit" or should I buy the parts seperate and get different pistons ? I don't know if it really matters that much.

The stock push rods in the 400 are shorter than the stock rods in other small blocks. Does this matter, should i buy a set of 5.7" rods ?

For heads, im thinking Dart Iron Eagles @ 72cc. I think keeping the compression ratio around or a little over 9:1 is where i want to be, seeing as how this will be my daily driver.

For an intake, im considering an RPM air gap, with a holley 750 DP sitting on top. Will this feed it enough ?

I dont know a thing about cams, i would appreciate any input on that. What are the differences between roller cams and flat tappet cams ? I know there are issues with using roller cams with 400s (needing a retrofit roller $$$$), are the flat tappet cams really that much worse ? What is the "maintanance" i keep hearing about that you have to perform on the flat tappets that you dont have to on the rollers ?

What should I do for ignition ? Is there any other machine work that i should have done to the block ?

Did I miss anything crucial ? Like i said, i am more or less ignorant here, so please, toss in any comment or suggestion you have. Thanks for the help on this one.

Any other recomendation on heads ? Possibly cheaper ? And whats the deal with valves; if a head doesnt come with them installed (or even if they do i suppose), what should i look for.

ede

most shops clean the block before they do anything, the hone would be part of the overbore work, mag testing would be extra. i'd get the deck squared at the shop. at home clean the casting flash, prep, paint, etc. you need to inspect the crank to know what it needs, at the very least i'd polish it, or have it polished. there is no such thing as a rebuild kit. you tell them waht you want, they pull the parts and put them in a box, if you're lucky the box will have "rebuild kit" stamped on it. for a budget changing rods would most likely require more expensive pistons. i'd got with dish pistons and lot smaller chambers.

acidpad

i was thinking this "rebuild kit" from summit
http://store.summitracing.com/defaul...=egnsearch.asp

i thought it was a rebuild kit .... because it says "rebuild kit" on it .....

As far as the smaller chambers in the heads, is that really something i want to do to keep the engine running on pump gas ? how small of chambers can i go and still maintain about 9:1 with dish pistsons at a 4.155 bore ?



Also, why would i require more expensive pistons if i change the rods over to the 5.7"? and also, would it be alright for me to not change the rods over at all ?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

5.7" rod 400 pistons are very common now, and no more expensive than stock length rod pistons. However, Summit doesn't appear to offer them in a "rebuild kit" (at least, the description doesn't specify).

I'd say the 5.7" rods are worth it, but it's not my money.

chesterfield

back in the olden days we'd actually re-ring a motor if the cylinder walls weren't worn. shops still do this I'm told. i'd take the block and have it hot tanked then magnefluxed to see if its any good first. see if there's any noticable ridge on the top of the cylinders.
it sounds like you don't want to spend any more than you have to so why buy pistons and rods if yours are good? for 6 more cubic inches? save some money and buy headers.

acidpad

Thats kindof what im trying to figure out is if i need to buy all this. I know i dont want stock performance out of this thing, and i know that the engine was getting "tired" , whatever that means. Is it feasible that i could just need a new cam, heads, and re-ring to get this motor running decent ?

Also, what would be some nice heads that arent off the wall ?


as for the 5.7" rods .... i saw a set on e-bay for $15 bux, so i think i could get those, the question is, what benefit does it give me in going with those instead of stock.

Apeiron

Stock 400 rods are 5.565" instead of 5.7". If you change the rod length you'll need pistons to match. If you have to bore the cylinders, you'll need new pistons anyway.

It shouldn't cost too much to have a shop clean up the block and inspect and measure it. They'll be able to tell you if it needs boring or any other work and then you'll be in a better position to decide what you want to do with it.

TexaSGuy

Get it magnafluxed - it's worth the money. Just imagine you spend all your time/money in getting this bad boy built, put it in your car, and a week later a very small crack in the block is now a very big one and you need to do it all over again.

If you take your block to an honest shop and tell them what you want to do with it, they'll clean it and magnaflux it and all that for you and they'll check the cylinders for you (a little extra of course) to let you know if you can get away with a basic rering (which'll save you the cost of the work they did on it, assuming it comes to them as a bare block ready to be hottanked).

Companies do have rebuild kits, but they aren't set in stone - you tell them (PAW is great about this) what you're budget is, what kind of power you want, and they'll get you setup with a kit that'll have everything you need to get your engine running, and for a good price (it's not always cheaper to do it this way, though it's never more then buying them seperately, but it's infinitely easier and much, much, much less time consuming).

chesterfield

this is just an opinion, maybe someone can argue me out of it.
headers are worth more than anRPM intake and holley carb. where i live i can get a auminum factory 4 barrel intake for $25 and a quadrajet for$35. for the overall budget i'd rather work headers into the deal than any other performance upgrade.

blyth18md

If you can get away with a re-ring more power to you..if not .030 over is nice because thats where piston selection is optimal.

Stock crank, and rods should be fine...might want to upgrade the rod bolts to ARPs though.

Dart iron eagles are some of the best iron heads in their price range, theyre what i was planning on using on my 400 build...until i decided to probably just go with aluminums. I was planning on running the Iron Eagles with the 200cc intake runners.

The rpm air gap and 750DP is the same induction setup i have planned and should suit you fine. Ive been to you can get an electric choke kit for the DP's for like 35 dollars, which is nice to have.

Here are the specs of my non-roller cam...284/296 (duration) 240/246 (@.50) .541/.544 (lift)

Hopefully that gives you some idea of where to start looking at cam selection.

Apeiron

Going .030 over also unfortunately means you'll probably never be able to rebuild the block again.

blyth18md

true, depending on the block...but hopefully he does it right and it lasts quite a while since its going to be his daily driver.

either way, looking at his plans so far it should be a pretty nice build, and judging his selection of parts i think for not knowing much about rebuilds hes on the right track.

acidpad

I started taking it apart tonight, and started doing some more thinking.
What about using the stock pistons ? is that a REALLY bad idea, and how can i actually tell if they are in good enough shape to even consider using.

I'm basically wondering [ assuming my current stock stuff is actually in OK condition, but ill leave that to a machine shop to tell me ], if i can get away with a re-ring kit, freeze plugs, a new cam, and new heads + the intake stuff previously mentioned. So no boring over, no new pistons, no rods, etc.

Also, aside from the iron eagles, what are some alternate heads that might be a little easier on the wallet ?

acidpad

I Really need some input on heads, so if someone has an idea on heads, let me hear it, because it looks like for a pair of iron eagle heads, its going to be like $1000 alone to get those complete. Is there a GM part that would fit the bill for this buildup a bit nicer ?

Thanks

my3rdgen

For a daily driver, there is no reason why you couldn't do this as long as the machinist doing the work thinks that the block and pistons are not worn too much.

As for the heads, you can get a set of Vortecs from Jegs for like $550.00 ready to go.

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...42&prmenbr=361

ChevelleFan

iTrader: (4)

I've built two 400s in my lifetime -- the first one I did the cheap way. I was a freshman in college and simply didn't have the money for a big dollar rebuild. It was done re-using my stock pistons, rods, etc. I bought an $80 Summit cam/lifter combo to wake up the performance. (224/234, .465/.488) And it worked great for 7 years.

The block had a small ridge in the tops of the bores and we used a ridge reamer to remove the ridge, and a ball hone in a drill to break the glaze on the cylinder walls. I bought a 'standard' rebuild kit with new rings, bearings (no cam bearings, tho), freeze plugs, gaskets, and a new oil pump. I reused just about everything else. Some people just can't imagine doing such a crude rebuild, but if you take your time and the motor ran ok when you tore it down, you're likely to have success. I think I did the whole thing for maybe $500. The rest of the package was a set of '71 487X castings with 3-angle valve job and a regular Edelbrock Performer (not RPM) with a Holley 750, vacuum secondaries. This was in 1992.

Back then, I took my car to the strip every week and always ran it hard (ran mid-low 13s). I also drove the car to/from work fairly often, and also used it to move home from college my freshman and sophomore years. The point I'm trying to make was that I drove and raced the car a fair bit. I even sprayed a 125-shot of nitrous on it from time to time.

After 7 years, I broke a rod when I over-revved in the burnout box. I got my money's worth.

When I replaced that blown-up engine, I did a real engine build. I bought another 400 for $400, took it to the machine shop, had them hot tank it, new cam bearings, bored 30-over, etc. I don't specifically remember getting it magnafluxed, but I wasn't cutting corners. The shop supplied a set of 5.7" rods with the appropriate rod bolts ground for cam clearance. They also supplied the forged flat-top pistons for me. (484 gram Wiseco pistons). Lastly, I had the rotating assembly balanced. $1300 later (includes cost of the pistons and rods), I got all my pieces back and assembled the short-block myself. I have $1700 total in the short block now. And it should last a good while, as long as I don't over-rev it again. An MSD-6AL is cheap insurance.

The point of my diatribe here is that there is more than one way to do it, and you can be successful either way. It doesn't take much to get a 400 in the 13s, which is a *fun* street car and it can be done on the cheap. Don't let people convince you that it takes lot of money, fancy machine work, and trick parts.

Go pick up a copy of David Vizard's "How to Rebuild Your Small Block Chevy" at any bookstore. If you follow his advice/procedures, you'll come out with a decent, reliable engine.

I hope this gives you some perspective. Feel free to PM if you have questions..

-Dave

acidpad

Thanks Dave, that gave me alot to think about.

With those Vortec heads having an Intake Runner Volume of 170cc, is that going to choke the 400 real bad, or is 170cc plenty to pull in some OK power ?

ChevelleFan

iTrader: (4)

Choke it? No way! The stock heads that we've all been using for years only measure in the 150s** for the intake port. I'm still using those old heads and running 12s with them in my Chevelle.
My 487X castings were listed as being used on LT-1 motors, although they only have 1.94/1.50 valves.

Will a 170cc or larger intake port help it? Absolutely. It's just a matter of where you want to draw the line on cost, since Vortecs will require a new intake manifold too.

** (I'm making a big assumption here -- I saw 155 listed as the port volume for both the 441 and 882 castings, which were considered 'decent' heads back before the Vortecs existed. If someone *knows* otherwise, please correct me.)

-Dave

chesterfield

Dave,

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm#Chevy


here's a handy reference site. i found it on the internet so it must be true.



roger

ChevelleFan

iTrader: (4)

Wow, that's a lot of info. I think I got my 155cc intake volume from the CHP cylinder head database, which matches what he has.

-Dave

acidpad

Piston question on this. Ive been kicking around the idea of going with a forged setup inside and getting a 3.875 stroke crank to make me a 421 at 4.155 bore.

The question is, will these pistons work with a 3.875 stroke
UEM-KB168030

that is the summit code for them, heres the data:

Brand: Keith Black/KB Pistons
Product Line: Keith Black Hypereutectic Pistons
Bore (in): 4.155
Piston Material: Hypereutectic aluminum
Piston Style: Dish
Compression Distance (in): 1.433
Dish Volume (cc): 30.00
Valve Reliefs: Trough
Wrist Pin Style: Floating
Pin Diameter (in): 0.9272
Top Ring Thickness: 5/64 in.
Second Ring Thickness: 5/64 in.
Oil Ring Thickness: 3/16 in.
Quantity: Sold individually.
Notes: D cup piston crown design.

Serious pistons that don't cost an arm and a leg.

Piston, Hypereutectic, 4.155 in. bore, 2-5/64,1-3/16 rings,22cc Dish,Each

Keith Black Hypereutectic pistons are made from 390 alloy and heat-treated to T6 standards, which makes them 30 percent stronger than ordinary untreated hypereutectics. Their 100 percent CNC-machined crowns, high upper compression-ring location, gas-accumulator groove, drilled oil returns, and spiral-lock retainer grooves make these pistons outstanding for performance applications. On top of that, their lightweight rigid-rib skirt design stabilizes the piston in the bore. All of this adds up to pistons that fit tighter than forged types, provide improved oil control, reduce blowby, increase ring life, eliminate cold start-up knocking, and won't cost you an arm and a leg!



I will probably be runnint 5.7" rods, im not sure how much that matters, i wasnt aware that stroke and rod length had to do with piston selection, but on summit, when i click 5.7" rods, 4.155" bore, and a 3.875" stroke, it has next to nothing listed. Basically, im trying to figure out if this will work, and if not, why.


Thanks.

RB83L69

A SBC block has a nominal dimension from crank centerline to deck surface, of 9.025", plus or minus a few thou.

And therefore, the total "height" of the rotating assembly at TDC, which is the rod length, plus the compression height, plus half the stroke, plus the "deck clearance", must equal 9.025".

So: leaving out the deck clearance for the moment, 5.7" + 1.433" + 1.9375" (which is ½ * 3.875") = 9.0705

Which means that the pistons will come out the top of the block by about .045"; or more, if the block has been decked.

Therefore, I myself would certainly not build that combo.

5.7 + 1.433" + 1.875" (½ * 3.75") = 9.008", about perfect for a stock block that's had its deck cleaned up.

Which tells one that those are 400 pistons, for the stock 400 stroke; not 420 pistons.

The reason there's "nothing listed", is because if you're trying to build a combo like that yourself, you're supposed to understand the simple arithmetic that describes how everything fits together.

acidpad

Thanks for the equation.

acidpad

Ok, so I ended up landing a pretty good paying job so im re-looking at my head choice. Goal is no longer a mild buildup, but somewhere in the range of 400-500 hp ish. Ive decided to go completely forged for the bottom end, but i need help with the head selection. I think the choices that im looking at right now would pro topline, or afr. alot of people swear by afr heads, but in reality, how much better are AFR than say the pro-toplines ? Yeah, the pro-topline are an iron head and the afr are aluminum so theres the weight difference, but when it comes to actual power generation are the afr worth it ? Also with it being a 400 that im building and that im looking to make big power, , should i be looking bigger than say 210cc, or is around there good ?

Thanks for the help, i hope to buy my heads by next weekend, so any input would be great.

ditchbangr

iTrader: (1)

If the engine is more street/strip I don't think you should need more than a 200cc runner. AFR's are great but don't forget the TFS kenny dutweiler heads, Dart and if you run a dish piston to get the compression down you'd be very happy with the edelbrock E-Tec 200 cylinder heads. If running 210 consider the edelbrock victor jr., they are good for well over 500 hp out of the box.

acidpad

what would be the advantage to using a vortec style head like the e-tec, vs a non-vortec ?

ditchbangr

iTrader: (1)

They work really well, I can't remember the #'s but on the 427sb major mouse article they made excellent power. Much better head than the fastburns and are priced reasonably.

I would have used the e-tecs on my 406 if they had a larger chamber, I already had flattops and I needed 72-76 to bring compression down a touch. Actually the e-tec 170's did real well on that 427 also. It's a shame more people don't use these heads.

brutalform

[QUOTE]Originally posted by acidpad
[B]Ok, so I ended up landing a pretty good paying job so im re-looking at my head choice. Goal is no longer a mild buildup, but somewhere in the range of 400-500 hp ish. Ive decided to go completely forged for the bottom end, but i need help with the head selection.

Why not build a big cube 434. If you are buying a forged crank anyway, why not get a 4" stroke crank. You can go with any head you like, as long as the runners are in the 200 cc range, preferably 220. AFR, Brodix etc. Brodix has the Track 1, which I use on my 436. This is a good head for a large engine, or you can go with their 11STD X. This head has a 225 runner, and is recommended by Brodix for 400 and larger engines. You will need a stud girdle, and correct pushrods. Also a valve that is .150 longer is needed for the 11 X. As you can see the Track 1 might be a little more cost effective, but not flow as well as the 11 X.

Good for you and your new job. Build it right from the start, and you wont be dissapointed.

I am using an Eagle rotating assembly with JE pistons. IMO, this is quality for a good price. HTH.

acidpad

I would go with the 434, but i need to see what kind of condition my block is in to see if it would need any grinding to add that kind of crank. I dont plan on running just the 400 non bored or stroked, but it all depends on the block quality. So if i strat heading anywhere north of 400, i should start looking for 220cc rather than just the 200 ?

The big question that i have is on the vortec style heads right now, and thats because i keep seeing people say how much more "efficient" they are, or that they have "better bowls", but from everything ive seen (and i have very limited first hand experience) the afr, which are not vortec, are outperforming the "new style" vortecs, so i was really just wondering what the benefit to using them are. right now im leaning toward the afr or edelbrock victor jrs. Keep the input coming though, keeps me researching.

92lt1

Lookup chevyhiperformance online and lookup "Impersonator". Also, lookup some of there other builds with 400's. They put out some pretty impressive numbers. Just a suggestion.

brutalform

Yes, you will definatley need to clearance the block to use a 4" stroke crank. The oil pan rails especially. A .030 over 400 with a 4" crank IMO is the way to go. (.030 is a safe bore on the 400.) As for the heads, comparing 200 to 220 runners, is not that big of deal on a large engine. If you want a street/strip engine, lean toward the 220s. More of a street engine, go with the 200s. The bottom line , IMO, is that the Vortecs dont belong on anything larger than a 383. The head selection will make, or break your engine. I set out to build a "mild" 436, (if there is such a thing), and went with a smaller solid roller cam, and Track 1s, (as compared to the 11std X.) My goal was to have an 11 second car, with A/C, and all the creature comforts. You have to decide for yourself which way you want to go. Its pretty fun that my street car puts "race" cars on the trailer, at a good day at the track. Get the block checked, and see if its OK. Core shift is a problem, but you will be better off checking it, mostly with the overbore, but it can somtimes be a problem in the rail also.

acidpad

OK, so as of this morning, $6000 in hand, time to get the engine built, but a few things have changed. I am going to for now keep the stock crank, and probably build it into a 406, depending how the cylinder walls check out. I still want to keep my buildup mild in terms of $$ (as in I dont want it eating ALL $6000), so I'm thinking a flat tappet cam instead of roller, since I'd have to get a retro-roller, I'll keep the stock rods (or at least stock rod length), and probably get some new pistons (still looking into exacts on that). Probably going to go with a dual plane air gap style intake with about an 850 carb for now, especially since this will not be anything close to a daily driver. The 2 big questions I still have on my list are heads and cam. I dont want to spend a ton on heads, but I want the car to move. When i say not a ton, i mean i'd rather not drop a grand or more for a set of heads. So, what heads do you guys thing i should get, then what cam to match it. Parts are going to start being ordered tomorrow, though the heads and cam will probably be ordered later than that. basically, what are the best bang for the buck heads under a grand / set assembled that are not vortech, and how much can I expect to get from them with a well matched cam that doesnt need to be **entirely** streetable.

I'll start posting parts as they are ordered, and i'll get some pictures up here as the assembly starts going, and get this documented since I've gotten so much help from you guys already.

brutalform

I believe you can do it, and use a roller, cam, decent heads, and still have some money left to boot. You got me thinking now! Let me see if i can find my 436 engine bill.

ChevelleFan

iTrader: (4)

You've got $6000 (or $4000 if you wanna save), but aren't willing spend a $1000 on heads? And then you're ruling out Vortecs? You're not leaving yourself many good options. If you're buying an intake anyway, what's the problem with getting a Vortec one? There's a lot of good heads available in the $1100-1200 range.

-Dave

acidpad

I'm willing to spend up to about a grand on a set of heads, but i dont want to spend a whole lot more. the reason that I dont want to go with vortec is that later on down the road, i want to go with a specific FI system, and really dont want to deal with vortec, but I am willing to spend around a grand for a set of heads, but i want to know what is out there under that amount.

acidpad

Ok, looking to get some thoughts on heads. I've more or less narrowed it down to two.

either
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=346644
which are 220cc ProTopline Iron heads

or a set of Brodix IK200 Aluminum heads, the brodix (according to their own flow number....) outflow the ProToplines just barely at most points, but are about $300 more.

Would it be worth it to go with the brodix aluminum ?

acidpad

Soooo....


I got the block completely torn apart and brought the pieces upto the machine shop. Turns out my motor is already .30 over, but the cylinder walls look good, so that should be alright, but he says that my crank is trashed. He showed me some part on it where there was a pretty big lip and apparently theres not suppose to be, so I gotta buy a new crank now in addition to everything else. Should know by the end of the week whether or not the block is good. If it is, I should be able to keep moving onward even with needing to buy a new crank.

After pulling the cam out, I found that it wasnt a stock cam (as far as i can tell). It was marked Crane Blazer 2881 or 28811, kinda hard to read. Have any of you heard of this cam, i cant find anything on it.