TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

anyways, new motor, never ran, the one listed in my sig. I havn;t had a chance to verify yet, but im quite sure I have no fuel from the injectors.
I know I have spark, my buddy was holding the wire i told him to hold it near something to see if it arcs, he was too scared so while he was looking for a screwdriver, i cranked the engine anyways and when he got shocked, i knew i had spark. the fuel pump primes, i know i have pressure in the fuel rails. I don't believe the injectors are firing however...

Now when i go out in the morning and if i discover they are firing. ( was gonna test the plug to the injector for voltage as cranking) what else could the problem be? thier is no surging or anything to indicate the dizzy is 180 off..
Maybe more tuning to get it to fire up? I doubt it, i changed my ecm to accomdate 30# injectors, and i raised timing 4degrees all across the board.
if the injectors are not firing, what should I look for? is thier any particular 'switches' i should check that would prevent a signal to the fuel injectors? I have esc disconnected as well..

Vader

ESC bypass shouldn't affect it.

Do you have 12V to the injector harness with the ignition on?

Even though your former "buddy" got the crap shocked out of him, there may not be enough spark energy to actually fire a plug. You really need to test it across an air gap. You also need to be certain the plugs are clean and DRY.

Does the program you're using have VATS disabled?

What is the rail pressure reading? It really should be over 32 to allow the injectors to spray properly.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

my plugs are brand new along with everything else on the motor minus the distributor and its guts. i have vats enabled and in full use with the key. i dont have my fuel pressure gauge handy atm i cant tell you what the pressure is however i tinkered with my regulator, i evven cranked it up almost all the way but to no avail.. ill check spark again tomorrow, along with the voltage at the harness, i ran out of time today to check everything i wanted, but im posting here to get more ideas for tomorrow. so lets say the injectors arent getting firing.. what would i check for next?

fbird92

Check to make sure when you have the key on and engine off that the check engine light turns on. If it doesnt it than that could be your problem. Check the fuse under the hood, than trace wires. There could be a good possibility one of the wires shorted out. This is what happend to my car. I would crank it and get spark but no injector pulse. The problem ended up being the power wire going to the oil pressure switch had short and i hat to put in a new fuse.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

i did check for the light, it does come on so thats a good sign. if i hook up my laptop will the datalog connection help any?

Vader

So the ECM is working. With the laptop connected, can you read an RPM while cranking?

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

no i cant.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

i also checked the output on the pickup coil and theirs no such luck... while my buddy cranks, i hold my fingers against the injector and i cannot feel them pulsing.

could my ecm just be dead? even though i can read all my sensors through the laptop?

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

ok im at a total loss, the pickup coil in the dizzy is fine, i even unplugged my oil sending unit to peg my gauge. that way the ecm thinks its getting pressure. What else can i try? the injectors are not firing

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

using some other software i had to datalog with, i never once see the rpm read anything but 0. is this normal for an engine thats just cranking?

Token

I just skimmed this thread, but the first thing you said was that you knew you had spark. You've already confirmed you have spark, dude. Stop checking this over and over again. You need five things to run an engine... Fuel, air, spark, compression, and timing. Go to the parts store and pick up a noid light and test your fuel injectors. Also, check for pressure at the schrader valve with a fuel pressure guage.

fbird92

If you are able to hook a fuel pressure gauge up to the vehicle and crank it to see if you get any fuel pressure. If you do not get any pressure what so ever than it is a good possibility it could be the fuel pump. If you get plenty of pressure check your injectors. Hook a noid light up to it have some oen crank it over and see if you get any light coming from them

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

been their done that the noid light does not light up, however i used a multimeter instead, and it does not record any voltage either. i do have fuel pump and definitly have pressure, havnt checked how much but its up their. main thing is no signal through the injector harness and being ford injectors, u can usually hear them ticking or even feel them, i can do neither

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

i got a new ecm to try out tomorrow lets hope thats the fix. if not i dont know what to do. is it normal for the laptop not to read an rpm while cranking even though the actual gauge does?

camarolizard

what kind of dist do you have? if the pcm does not see a rpm signal,it wont fire the injectors.also check tp voltage,should be .45-.5v with the throttle closed

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

First thing to figure out, is if it runs or not.

Does it start if you spray starting fluid in it? You're wasting your time with "I've got spark" and "it must be fuel", until you know that you can make it work by substituting one of the 3 magic ingredients.

What EXACTLY did you do to this car? Specifically, what have you done that might affect fuel delivery? Did you put in a new ECM? Remove the fuel pump relay? Hack any wiring? Forget to put in a fuse somewhere? Does the fuel pump prime? What's the fuel pressure? Tried the stock chip to see if it at least WORKS?

Instead of taking a scatter-gun "maybe it's this, maybe it's that" approach, attack the problem calmly, logically, and with reason. Perform simple tests that can produce 100% unambiguous results. Proceed in the direction the tests tell you the problem is; no matter whether it's unpleasant, or expensive, or embarrassing because it means you made a mistake somewhere, or you don't think it's likely, or anything else. Sometimes things are like that; but refusal to meet the issue head-on, just guarantees that your car will continue to serve only as an elaborate driveway ornament.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

i havnt done anything to the car except just the engine. i left all wiring alone, i rerouted some wiring for the headlights but thats it. i have tried the stock chip, that was no go. fuel pump does prime and i know i have lots of pressure when i hit that shrader valve. i don't have a fuel pressure tester unfortunately (wish i did) I wasn't sure if it was a good idea to spray ether in it since its a brand new motor. if its ok. i will give it a shot..I have checked fuses. so i will try the ether (starting fluid) if its ok to use.

chevy35086

the starting fluid will be ok, whats killing the new motor is all the cranking and no oil getting around.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

i got a new ecm this morning im giving that a shot. cuz the laptop shows that the ecm is not even showing a injector pulse width. so thats something im thinking if that doesnt work then i will pickup some starting fluid.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Ether won't hurt anything.

Or, if you'd prefer, just shoot some gasoline in there.

All you're trying to do, is figure out if you can get the engine to run, by substituting for one of the 3 magic ingredients (fuel/air, spark, compression). If it still doesn't run, then you either have no compression, or no spark. Or, the spark is occurring at the wrong time.

If you ever get spark at all (which you say you do), then the dist itself is working; and if everything is all plugged in like it's supposed to be, then the ECM should be getting its pulses from the dist.

Check for 12V at the injectors, with the key on.

Check the one plug that the whole injector harness plugs into.

Check that the ECM fully plugged in and getting power. Although if it primes the pump, it probably is.

In fact, you might want to just follow every wire to both ends, and make sure it's plugged in. Don't overlook the simple stuff.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

ive checked everything. what i need to know is. what makes injectors fire? obviously just getting 12volts isnt enough? what else does it take to get them to open up? i want to test them.

camarolizard

the ecm provides the ground.with a noid light,you simply unplug the injector and plug the light in its place.if the light flashes while cranking,the ecm is probaly working.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

So, does it start if you supply fuel?

Before tearing into something needlessly, you might maybe save yourself a whole lot of effort, by making sure you're working on the right thing.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

i tried that however i got 12v through the gruond, appearently i needed to unplug the whole bank of injectors.

and to sofakingdom, with starting fluid, it still does not start.

camarolizard

does it even try to start? is it timed properly?does it have any compression?

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

doesnt even try to start its timed as properly as i can get without it actually running. i havnt done a compression test.

camarolizard

this is tricky without having acess to the car.when you have 12v on the ground side,when does it occur? what are you testing it with?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Well, if it doesn't even TRY to start when you put fuel in it by hand, like NOT EVEN HIT A LICK, then the problem isn't fuel. It's something else.

In other words, you can dink around looking for injector pulses from now til Doomsday, and even if you find lots and lots of them, the engine STILL won't run.

Sounds like it's time to stop worrying about injector pulses for just a minute, and at least get it to where it will light off when you put the fuel in manually.

Are you sure you have the dist in right? That is, rotor points to the #1 plug wire when the engine is at #1 firing?

Find #1 firing by way of compression. Take out the #1 spark plug. Have somebody bump the starter lightly while you put your finger over the #1 plug hole. When you start to feel compression, turn the motor slowly by hand, until the timing mark is about an inch before reaching TDC. Look at the rotor and make sure it's pointing at the #1 plug wire.

Guest

I agree, sounds like a spark issue to me if it doesnt even try to fire with starting fluid. If there was spark as you say, then the timing must be off.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

since i dont have a buddy to help me test, i popped the valve cover off, and i cranked the engine till the intake valve opened and then closed. when it closed. i found the timing mark on my balancer and brought it to the zero mark on my tab. thats when i stabbed the dizzy to point @ #1. does this sound correct?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Should be correct; assuming that you found THE NEXT instance of the timing mark lining up, and didn't skip an instance. Remember: the timing mark comes up TWICE in a full engine cycle; once at #1 firing (#6 exh closing and int opening), and again at #6 firing (#1 exh closing and int opening).

All the same, seems like it might be wise to double-check. Much easier and quicker to verify it now, than to beat your brains out on it for a few more days trying everything else, and then discover that this has been the problem all along.

All you're really looking for here, is to get it to at least HIT. Doesn't have to "run", much less "run right". If you can get it to where a few cyls fire consecutively in a burst, then you know you have spark and compression, at the right times. THEN AND ONLY THEN, if it still doesn't run, start working on the fuel system.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

it was the next timing mark, it was only a few inches away.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Well that's OK, you don't have to check.

It's your car, and you're the one that's walking instead of driving it. Doesn't bother me a bit. My car works fine.

It's up to you. Logic? or run around in a panic and a blind fog? You make the call.

We're just trying to help you understand that you need to START AT THE BEGINNING of the troubleshooting process, not somewhere in the middle, and skip over the part you don't like (which invariably is where the problem is).

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

im telling u what i did, and i did not crank the engine 180 degrees to find the mark, i turned it maybe an 1/8 of a turn to find the mark. i kept an eye to make sure the exhaust valve wasnt opening up. believe me on this. what should i check next however?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

That the spark arrives at the #1 cyl at the same time that the piston approaches TDC at the end of the #1 compression stroke.

Trust me, I believe you. But it's not for certain that the sparks are believing you and they're the only ones that matter right now.

camarolizard

this is why it is tricky without having the car in front of you.i agree with sofakingdom that you should start at the beginning.the most complex problems usually have the simplest solutions.at this point,i would step away for awhile,and start over with fresh eyes

koll

Check your grounds. I couldnt get my TPI to start for ****.
Regrounded it and BAM!

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

ok ive restabbed the dizzy, and talked to a gm mechanic over the phone and i ran some probes and tests and my ecm is not getting any rpm signal and i cannot figure it out!

Red Devil

First get it to cough with the ether, then trace the dizzy harness and ecm grounds and find out why the ecm isn't grounding the injectors. Maybe bug Trickster into posting up the appropriate schems.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

i have schemes, and i did trace the wire and its all in one peice im thinking to make sure the pins into the module arent busted up too much. i lost my ether so that will have to wait till tomorrow. i cant believe an engine swap causes me this much grief. i almost want to throw a carb on it.

Red Devil

Have you checked the little things like fuses, fusible links etc.?

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

yup, i even replaced the two inj. fuses just in case!

Red Devil

Geez. All I can think of is an ecm or wiring issue. Happen to have another dizzy to pop in there?

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

already done that, ive swapped ECM and distributors, and on my third module just in case! lol im so screwed i think im towing it to a shop.

Red Devil

Er... um... who installed the cam and chain? Have you verified both the valve movement with the piston position? If yes, I'd go back to Mr. Dom's suggestion of getting it to fire with outside 'help' and see what you get. Have you tried a compression test to make sure the valves are closing etc.? I think it's probably time to take it from the very,very top.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/west...ml#post2852430

thank you all for your help oh so very much!