Sonix

iTrader: (1)

So I think I already know the answer to my question, but I want to be sure.

I built the motor, specs in sig and sidebar. I broke in the cam, and everything was peachy. Seemed to have a fair bit of power, but i've been chasing strange carb problems, and it seemed to be losing power...

So I went to relash my valves, trying to EOIC method... And I was trying to get to do #7 exhaust, but #7 intake wasn't moving...So I got suspicious, and just fired up the car, with no valves covers on.

Anyway, I got a video here... It's kinda quick, 'cuz I was soaking myself in oil, and wasn't sure how much space the camera held. I put this into divx format, so hopefully you guys can view it. Try right click save as;
Video

Pay attention to #7 intake, and then #4 exhaust, and #6 exhaust.

Any other reasons for that?

Then finally, anyone know Lunati's return/exchange policy?

Thanks

ScottieB

the smoke looks more like smoke from the oil burning off of stuff... look at your video and pause it or slow mo it.

ScottieB

BTW I know nothing of this... so I am no help

Quick_Trans_Am

iTrader: (2)

Sonix the only other thing I could tell you is that your intake lifters on those cylinders could be collapsed. I don't understand how those two particular cam lobes could wipe out without any of the other lobes doing the same. I'm not saying it's not possible. How old is the cam?

This could be a help, maybe not though:
I tore my block apart today, and from lack of oil pressure my cam lobes are blue, but they all worked properly, so that could be something to consider. Either way it's gotta come apart to fix.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

ya, I know the smoke is from the oil hitting the headers. It smoked like crazy...That's the lesser of two evils right now..

Cam is 4 months old from date of purchase, about 1000 miles on it. Virgin fire up was beginning of june IIRC.
Did the break in procedure to the letter. 30W non detergent oil, can of GM EOS. Used supplied cam lube on all lifter faces, cam lobes, etc. A number of false starts, maybe that contributed to this.... Anyway, ran it at 2000RPM for 20 mins, then 2500 for 2, then 3000 for a few, then back to 2000RPM, then shut it down. Changed the oil, went to dyno juice, 30W IIRC. For about 600 miles. Seated the rings, and tried tuning the carb.
Finally swapped to mobil 1 synthetic 5w30.

So, any one else? Think the cam lobes are flat?

Then, what could have caused it?
wrong break-in?
bad time to go to synthetic?
pushrod seized in slots in heads? Or some other thing like this...
collapsed lifter
DOA cam?

And finally, am I going to be out another $250 or so, or do you guys think Lunati will cut me a break here?

Thanks

ResurrectingZ

Wow, 7 barely moved...that sucks. I wonder if that lifter wasnt getting any oil pushed through it, collapsing the lifter and flattening the cam lobe. Have a friend who just rebuilt his pontiac 400 and flattened 2 lobes after break-in and a couple starts.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I'm going to tear it down tonight, and see what's up...
guess i'll need to remove the intake to get the lifters out Means one more gasket to buy....
Not the heads though right?

So, remove accessories, remove carb and intake manifold & distributor, remove rockers, lifters and pushrods pull off balancer, loosen oil pan, drop it a tad, to remove timing cover. So i'll need intake gasket, timing cover gasket, oil...

my speed shop said they'd honor lunatis warrantee, and give me a store credit, so I can get a comp cam that they have in stock, rather then waiting to special order another lunati one... I just have to pay to buy new lifters....Not bad

Well, i'll find out tonight what's going on under there...

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I didn't watch the video but if you've got one valve that's moving ALOT less than the others, then it don't sound good for the home team....

I wouldn't see it as a "Lunati" or "Comp" problem, as such. It's a pretty universal issue in the hot-rodding world these days. Actually, I suspect the culprit is probably the non-detergent oil; you really shouldn't have done that. That's an "old wives' tale" left over from the 50s and the days of cast-iron rings.

The GM EOS is the right thing, very good idea. However, use either Shell Rotella T or Mobil Delvac 30-weight diesel engine oil this time. They still have the zinc additives that automotive oils have been forced to eliminate. Pour EOS on the cam lobes before you drop the lifters in, too.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

no, not a lunati vs comp issue, just that my local speed shop stocks comp cams. If I want to get my same lunati cam again, i'd have to pay $35 freight, plus wait 3 weeks to get it in (canada.) But they were willing to just give me store credit and let me buy a comp cam, the xe268. Since it's so similar, i'm gonna go for it. I need the car up and running so I can enjoy summer

the guy at lunati told me I went to synthetic too early, 800 miles or so...
Yea, the non-detergent oil was because it was the only straight weight oil I could find.... I found pennzoil 30wt, happened to be non-detergent, and I just added the can of EOS to the crank case.
Pour EOS on cam lobes before I drop in the lifters? I was going to coat the lobes with comps cam lube, and the lifter bottoms with cam lube. Do you mean in addition to that, just pour some down the lifter holes sorta thing?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yup, that's about it.

Seems like I bought the Shell at VatoZone just the other day. Note however, it's not in the same "section" of the store with the car motor oils.

91CamaroRS305

iTrader: (2)

Did you allow the lifters to sit completely submerged in oil for atleast 24 hours before you installed them?? If you didnt they were not allowed to fill up with oil.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

yep, I soaked 'em in oil before install. I definately followed break in procedure to a T....

91CamaroRS305

iTrader: (2)

could just be a bad lifter

Apeiron

Not with that much lost lift.

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

shouldn't buy lunati..... i've personally seen and had two cams from them scrap...

cam motion made me a custom grind for $130 plus $100 for comp cams pro comp lifters....


dont buy chinese **** it breaks

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

? what? I don't think lunati cams are bad...
what's chinese here, lunati?



anyway, got it all (mostly) torn down. Just gotta lower the oil pan, so I can remove the timing chain cover... I'm getting tired though, so i'm going to shower a few times then go to bed

however, I removed most of the lifters, easily with a magnet... Except for 4 of them, I had to use vice grips, to reef on, and eventually remove...
.
.

You experienced guys already know what i'm about to say eh? Instead of them being nicely convex, like the rest, they were like little shot glasses! soup bowls! crazy! So I can safely assume theres my problem...

A few of my rocker studs cam out while I was removing the rockers, like when I was turning the rocker nuts loose... So i'm not totally a fan of these non collared studs... I guess I didn't use the jams tight enough to lock them in place?

Anyway, one of the 3 that came loose, happened to be one of failed lobes... I think I had lashed it too far down, because the rocker was being forced by the rocker ball to be right down on the mini collar of the stud. So it had a really rough rocking motion.... I think that directly related to that cylinders failure...
Perhaps I screwed up my initial lash on that cylinder?

Quick_Trans_Am

iTrader: (2)

It's a very good possibility, and not hard to do if you got distracted by something else, which is easy to do as well. I know I do!

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

yea lu-snotee started using cheaper chinese metals to construct there cams. my machine shop won't touch any of it. i had a lucky break my cam flattened a lil just enuff to fail the lifter and cause it to not rotate. Mine lasted 30 days

another motor in the shop had the exact same lunati cam and lifters and didn't last 20 mins b4 scrapping the lifter about half way up. It literally wore the lifter to the hydralics ( about half of the lifter disappeared )

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

yea, so my cam has 1 completely round lobe, and the other 3 are pretty shot...
getting the new one tommorow...

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

ok, I need an oil suggestion please.
Previous cam had pennzoil 30wt, with 1 can GM EOS. Lunati cam

Now i'm getting a compxe268, and 1 can of crane break in oil, and obviously the moly lube for the lobes. But what oil *weight*?

I asked locally about rotella, and delvac, and found:
Shell Rotella HD 10-30 available
Shell Rotella "T", available in 15-40
Delvac, 5-40 available, but pricey, 'cuz it's synthetic apparently.

Whats the difference in rotalla HD and "T"? What weight of oil weight do I want? I'm used to thinking 5w30 in summer, 10w30 in winter, but that was with old, plain jane cars, not a brand new motor... What do you guys think?

Thanks

Supervisor42

While you're shopping for "Super Marvelous Magicical cam break in oil" Don't forget to get all of the debris, ground metal, use-tabe cam lobe, was-a-lifter, silver snail snot, out of that damn oil pan or it's gonna be a pretty quick trip for that oil pump.
While I'm on a soap box: The most important part of manufacturing a camshaft is its surface preparation and hardening process.
Anyone want to guess what very expensive part of cam manufacturing the mass producers scrimp on when making cams by the hundreds?
Anyone? anyone? anyone?
Forgive the rant.

F-BIRD'88

Crane has a new optional cam and lifter anti wear treatment you can order on their cam and lifter sets. Called "Mikronite" give em a call. Stick to dino oil with gm eos (Rotella T) Most Synthetics don't have the old Zinc anti-wear additive.
be sure the new lifters can easily spin in their lifter bores.

you can read about Mikronite here CraneCams

Try this little street mechanical cam from Crane. Much better than the XE268

CraneCams

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

ok Rotella T, but what weight? That's the million dollar question right there.

hmm, i've got cranes "super lube", I guess it's like EOS? I can't really get to performance shops without the car so.... Kinda a catch 22. I got a courier to pick up my cam and lifters and this lube.

Unfortunately i'm in a rush to get this back together, big trip planned for next weekend. But man, a solid cam is definately what I would have done, if I had the time to special order it, and prep the rest of the valvetrain...

Supervisor, think it's worthwhile to drop the pan completely to clean it out? ugh, i've lowered it to get the TC cover off, but the y-pipe would have to be removed, etc to get the pan out. I drained the oil, and there was no sheen or anythingm or metal flakes...? Must be all trapped in the filter?

Supervisor42

The metal that used to be cam lobes went somewhere. It is either in the pan and WILL go thru the oil pump damaging it or went thru the oil pump damaging it. This sh** don't just evaporate. Being in a rush here will cost you bigtime later. Your call. This is why I get so wound-up when I hear about guys ruining engines with cheap cams. We deserve better.

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

im actually breaking in my motor today... finally. my machine shop recommended me rotella T also in 10w -40 they told me that after recommending dino oil and the zinc additive.

EOS has zinc in it so its kind of redundant but i'd do it anyways.

OILS THAT I WAS TOLD COULD WORK:

+ dino oil and EOS

+ dino oil and lucas treatment

+ rotella T

+ Most racing oils still carry the high pressure additives

+ stay away from redline and royal purple ( i was told that they have good lube properties but leave deposits all over the motor)
----------
im using dino oil and lucas. if i scrap my cam oh well i can always swap it.

CamarosRUS

If I were you I'd pull the motor and rebuild it. I'm in the same situation but I only had my oil pump shaft rubbing a main bolt (and a cracked lifter and bad oil pressure and possibly washed walls...). I'm doing all new bearings, rings, oil pump, tanking the block and measuring everything again like I'm building it for the first time.

No reason to risk it. A completly round lobe with three other shot has put a lot of metal in the motor.

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

i wish i could just snap my fingers and pop a roller cam in your car so you wouldnt have to worry about the break ins...

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

yea, I just built the motor this winter, so I'd feel pretty bad re-rebuilding it. Most importantly, no time, no motor crane anymore, and no other mode of transportation.

I'll see if I can drop the pan out of the way semi easily. I don't want to have to remove my entire exhaust system (if I can't remove the y-pipe from the main piping easily), in order to remove the oil pan.

I'm guessing most of these metal shavings are hanging out in my oil filter. Which I will be tossing away in about 5 minutes here.

ok, dino oil with crane super lube it is. I'll find some rotella (in some chosen weight, which I can find..?) for right after cam break in then.

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

I had the EXACT same problem twice with my XE274. Proper break in, car ran great for several months, and performance slowly degrades. My problem ended up being lifters not spinning properly. I could have sworn when installing them that they all turned by hand similarly, but apparently not. After cleaning all lifter bores with a wheel cylinder hone, my 3rd cam has given me no troubles.

Could you provide pics of the lifters on from the worn lobes?

Apeiron

This isn't from his engine, but I'm guessing they look a lot like this.

mnorton

I suspect that most of your metal shavings are stuck in the oil pump pick-up screen... I think that you'd be smart to install a magnetic oil pan plug, and change the oil & filter a couple of times during the first 500 miles.

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

lol i saw that on the other lunati cam the scrapped in my shop. only imagine that shape with about half an inch missing also, yea that bad.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

When I removed my lunati cam, the journal surfaces looked fine, so I thought nothing of it.
I'm supposed to be doing an ultra fast cam swap here, but things aren't looking so quick...

My front cam journal felt.... rough. Not the way a new bearing feels. Of course I can't feel the other bearings... I cleaned the front one with some brake kleen and a cloth and it still feels rough, like someone rubbed it down with 180grit sandpaper...

it looks like
THIS

can I re-re cam bearings with motor in car? can I just do the front one? I was hoping to lube it up with clevite bearing guard and button it back up, but i'm a little hesitant...
I can't find a smiley that's weeping uncontrollably, so this will have to do:

Quick_Trans_Am

iTrader: (2)

Sonix, I don't like the look of that bearing. If i were in your shoes, (and I am in a way haha) I'd change it. The ones in my 350 block look in good shape, but I'm not taking any chances, and the front bearing looks a lot better than the one in the picture.

Supervisor42

weeping uncontrollably too. so, what do the rod bearings look like? Are they ready for 6800 rpm?
Are you brave enough to look at one?
It breaks my heart to see this...still one more time.
We deserve better.

CamarosRUS

With all that metal in the motor you need to clean it, really well. Time for a teardown...

Clean the block, go head and get new rod and main bearings, new cam bearings, rings if you want to spend it, have the crank checked along with the rods and pistons, check the block for all necessary measurements (cracks, bore taper, flat head surface, etc), check the heads for cracks if you want, put it all together and check ALL the clearances, get a new oil pump and be happy you built a perfectly clean motor instead of wondering if this one will make it because it still has metal in the passages. Next time you may break in the cam perfectly to find you have spun a bearing.

I know it sucks but I am going through it right now and learned it needs to be surgical clean. For a stupid oil pump shaft rubbing, mysteriously low oil pressure an a cracked lifter.

BTW...I've heard one manufacturer is having way too many cam failures compared to the others. Who would this be?

Apeiron

Yup, might as well pull it out and clean it up again.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I have no motor crane anymore.
I have no time to re-tear down the motor.
I have no money for new machining and whatnot.
.
.
.
I guess that's really not here nor there. I found a good slew of silver sheen in the lifter valley....
I think i'll check the main/rod bearings now....

**Can I just remove my y-pipe, and then remove my oilpan? Or do I need to jack up the motor, or something silly like that?**

Apeiron

I doubt you need new machining. If the crank journals still measure good, you're ok with new bearings.

CamarosRUS

I'm sure its okay but you need to check. As far as the oil pan...on my T-5 the oil pan won't come off without pulling the motor or the tranny. On auto's I think you can jack up the motor and get it off. Not 100% though.

Apeiron

No, the pan won't come out without jacking up the engine. The K member won't let the pan low enough to clear the mains.
----------
Let me see if I can hook you up with an engine crane to borrow in Calgary.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

well, theres a guy at work with a crane, I borrowed it before to put the motor in... Problem is, getting my brothers truck to go get it... I might be able to do it on wednesday, (after much discussion here), but i'll call that plan 'B'.

I just removed the y-pipe from header connection, and dropped the exhaust, I removed the tranny mount nut, and removed the motor mount bolts. (had to loosen DS header to remove that friggen long bolt).
Now i've got a chunk of 2x8 under the pan, and i've jacked it up a few inches. I've gotta hit the showers for tonight, but I want to plan out tommorows work so I can get this done ASAP.

1) Put 2x4 wood between motor mounts and k-member somehow, and remove jack, remove pan. Can I get the motor high enough before the trans hit the tunnel, to remove the pan?

2) I'll remove one main bearing cap at a time, and check the bottom bearing. I'll probably do them all. I'll check a few rod bearings as well.

Lets assume best case, those are perfectly fine looking. Can I do cam bearings with motor in car? If I remove the front clip? Can I fab up a tool to remove and replace them?

Apeiron

You can't do the cam bearings in the car unless you remove the dash and take a hole saw to the firewall.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

oh, figured i'd replace the plugs while i'm at it. Since i've got copious amounts of money to burn. Well, I still have a sense of humour at least...

Put in champion Rv8C's, replacing my delco R42T's, since the delcos are black oxide coated, and harder to read. I'd only been reading my plugs 1&2 since they were easiest to get to. They always seemed to show rich...

Here are my plugs that I removed:

DRIVERS SIDE PLUGS

PASSENGER SIDE PLUGS

The milk jug lid represents the back of the motor. Plug #4 I think it is, the one with the CRUD on it, looks like sand or mud.... That's the one that had both lobes worn. #7 had just intake, and #2 I think just had intake.
Let me know any thoughts on this. My intake gasket showed a bit of gunk on places as well, perhaps was leaking...
----------

that doesn't sound so bad about now...
you need access to the rear of the motor for that? sheiss.

Apeiron

If you could be creative with the installer, and you can maneuver the bearings onto the tool from inside the block around the cam, you might be able to do it with the engine in the car. It would be a bit difficult to verify correct alignment though, you could score the bearings passing the tool through them, and overall it would probably be less aggravation in the long run to pull the block.

I'm kind of really not liking the way that plug looks. You might want to have a look under the heads.

mnorton

That front cam bearing is bad, some of the metal has moved..... It obviously got hot.

It looks to me like it became bad because it did not get enough oil. I think that there is a problem with the oil distribution, probably the oil pump pick-up screen is partially plugged. Probably the oil filter is plugged too, did you remove and then cut it open to look inside?

The cam bearings are probably all damaged.... Sorry, I know it sucks to hear it, but it's time to tear it all down again.

Supervisor42

Sonix:
That plug is NORMAL for a cylinder that has had the valves not moving.
The cylinder never fires to keep the plug clean.
Here's a tip for removing the oil pan with the engine in frame:
Turn the crank so the timing mark for #1 cylinder points straight down at the floor.
Putting the front balancing weights up instead of down in the pan you can probably get the pan off just by jacking the front of the engine just a little.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

ok, i'll try removing the pan tonight then.

Almost wasted effort anyway, as i'll have to do the cam bearings with motor out...

CamarosRUS

Pretty much.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I can't turn the motor over via the balancer bolt, as I don't feel comfortable turning the motor over while the bolt is bottomed in it's threads.
I think a crank socket is my only option. Can I get that easily locally? Anybody know? (hint ape )

I couldn't get the motor high enough to get the pan off, the trans bellhousing it pretty big. Maybe with the crank turned, and the motor higher I can do it. But I have to remove the engine anyway, so i'll probably wait. I'm borrowing an engine crane next week sometime.

For tonight, I removed the front main bearing as a teaser.

pics

I've got 3 big high-res pics of my bearing on the lower cap side, and two pics of the crank. That bearing feels like the cam bearing - shot. The crank looks ok, hard to see though. It felt smooth.


I'm thinking of placing a summit order for some new bearings, etc. Think it's wise to do this now to get a jump on things? An order from summit will take it's time getting here, so sooner is better. Can I assume I can get the same .10/.10 bearings again?

CamarosRUS

You can't assume anything until you get everything back from the machine shop. You may have to have the crank turned down.