Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

run it with 1.6 rockers to get the lift up but thats a pretty good grind. still think its a TAD bit too small but will still fit the bill nicely

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Orr99:
If you're referring to the 222 intake on the GM 846 (Crane) cam sounding small, that's understandable. However, that cam is more of a revver than, say, a Comp 503 (224/230/112). The 846 has more gradual ramps than the XE lobes of the 503, and consequently more overlap. Ordinarily I'd recommend the Comp 503 because it would give him a little more bottom end torque than the 846 would; however, he's indicated he wants something in the Crane line and I am also aware of the quality rumors circulating about Comp, not that I agree with them, but didn't want to get into that argument.
The Crane/GM846 cam will not be a slouch in bottom/midrange torque in a 386 cube motor and it will make good power to 6400 rpm with a 2-plane and beyond that with an LT1 or single plane manifold.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, maybe I will do that. Hard to tell though without a dyno and only relying on the seat of my pants feel. I will probably do both at the same time and then make another trip to the dyno and test my 200 shot at the same time.

My block is out of a 79 truck with solid lifters. I have retrofit hydrolic rollers. Sorry if I didn't make that clear ever. Don't think I ever did.

I guess I can't use that cam then can I? What is the most similar cam that will fit?

I guess I will have to take some time and compare specs till I find the closest match since this GM Crane cam seems to be liked.

85Firebird350

iTrader: (3)

Get the Nitrous cam Dennis. It fits size wise and duration for you and will perform better with the nitrous.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

And it will fit my block. But isn't it a comp cams cam? People seem to not be linking those cams right now. Not sure what to do... There are rumors that they are sending out crappy parts. Not sure what to do. I am interested in the N20 cam, but I would like to go with stick with Crane cams, just based on the fact that i have one now.

85Firebird350

iTrader: (3)

Yeah I know how you feel about Crane, I'm the same way about them. I love them and the parts they put out too. I'm going with a Lunati voodoo cam though, want me to check and see what they have listed for hyd. roller cams? They only have them listed on their site not jegs or summit.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

yeah, that would be great.

I want to find a cam like the one you recommended, but from crane and not have to get it custom ground.

i will be searching too (I am positive I am not as good as most at searching sites for cams)

85Firebird350

iTrader: (3)

Here is a couple of the voodoo cams that struck me. One of the is a nitrous feine cam. Just look up the part #'s on Lunati's page and it'll give you a good description.

Part #: 501A4LUN
Advertised Duration IN/EX: 280/288
Duration @.050 IN/EX: 226/234
Gross Valve Lift IN/EX: .530"/.530"
Lobe Sep Angle / Intake Ctr Line: 112/106
Valve Lash IN/EX: Hyd/Hyd
RPM Range: 2000-5800

Part #: 50162LUN
Advertised Duration IN/EX: 300/310
Duration @.050 IN/EX: 242/252
Gross Valve Lift IN/EX: .525"/.540"
Lobe Sep Angle / Intake Ctr Line: 110/106
Valve Lash IN/EX: Hyd/Hyd
RPM Range: 2200-6800

Part #: 501A6LUN
Advertised Duration IN/EX: 288/296
Duration @.050 IN/EX: 234/242
Gross Valve Lift IN/EX: .530"/.530"
Lobe Sep Angle / Intake Ctr Line: 110/104
Valve Lash IN/EX: Hyd/Hyd
RPM Range: 2500-6500

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Thanks. I will look them up right now and see what they say.

The first one looks so be the best power band area to me.

After checking out the site and description I like it even more. I am going to look up how much it is at summit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Holly crap it is a lot of $. Most other cams are less than $200 and this is over $330. What the heck! Think it is worth it? And can I stick with my 1.5 RRs? It has .530 lift on both sides...

Will I be able to re-use my Hydrolic rollers that I have now. So all I need is the cam? I found an intake in the same finish I wanted for $50 less on ebay that I am picking up so that will help free up some funds, but still this cam seems to be x2 other cams prices.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

AFAIK those are all flat-tappet; and not the Voodoo line. They're the older Lunati products.

IIRC the Voodoo HR cams all have 5-digit (no letters) part #s; the "retrofit" rollers are 60110 and 60113; their site is severely messed up on the front page for them so you'll have to lok at them individually. http://www.holley.com/types/Chevrole...etro%20Fit.asp or go to the catalog http://www.holley.com/BrowseCatalogs...Lunati&Page=24 Looks like they don't really have a mid-220s one.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Damn!

Why is this so hard, lol!

Can't seem to find a cam to get that is clear and understandable. Its always a little big, little too small, needs 1.6RRs to work, not for my motor, not right type of lifter app.

Oh well. I guess the game goes on. Till then, I am driving the crap out of my car with a lot of high reving since after I swap the revs should be able to stay down to make the car fun.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

get a custom grind then if you dont like off the shelf stuff.

i dont think you could go wrong either way with any of the cams listed here. difference in power is probly marginal at best. anything from the 846 cam, the comp 503, the comp 280XFI 230/236, a nitrous gind like a 230/242 or 224-236, anything like that would be fine and MUCH better than what you have now

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

i see what you are saying. I will just call up crane and most likely get one if the cams you just said.

With hydrolic rollers I don't need new rollers right? They say NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. but why with hyd rollers?

sstpres

I've ran the Lunati 50162LUN cam in a 422stroker w/1.5RR. The motor ran hard (11.20's in a 3300# car.) on motor and REALLY liked nitrous(10 teens on a 150shot @ 132MPH). It had a broad torque curve. I shifted at just under 6500RPM. However, I had it ground on a 112LSA.

I went to a bigger solid roller in this motor. But I kept the cam and am building a 408 with AFR220's and this cam. We'll see how it turns out. But on AFR's website that exact cam (1.6RR) with AFR210Comp heads made 573HP @ 6500 and 536ft-lb @ 5000.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

nice numbers for sure. Not sure if my combo would like it as much since I don't have the C.I. that you do...

What kinda comp ratio did that motor have? Mine is kinda on the low side.

sstpres

AFR's website used a 10.1 to 1 motor.

I ran my 422 at 11 to 1.

BTW I had good vacuum for power brakes. But again, I had a larger CI motor.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, i will keep that in mind. I think I just need to spend some good old fashioned time on the phone with these people. (lunati, crane and comp)

SpitotRs305

I have a small question... why do you need to run the Retro-fit cam? i understand that you are using the retro fit rollers and a retrofit cam would seamingly be implied... but why? it is the exact same cam as a regular roller cam except for the bolt pattern is a bit smaller... just trim down your thrust button...a timing set for a factory roller cam and a bearing to take the place of the stock thrust plate...

or am i out in left field on this?

seems like it would be much simpler than hunting down a retro cam and paying more for them to add the word "retro"

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

i honestly don't know anything about retrofit cams or even lifters. I never took the time to learn how the parts differ from normal. I know what the terminology means, but thats it. I thought that I had a normal stock timing cover and all else. I didn't even know there was such a thing as a retro cam till I started this thread. i thought it was just the lifters the whole time.

I want to keep things simple though, even if it cost a little more. I would like to just replace the cam and thats it. $ is tight as always so even if the cam costs me a bit more and saves on time, labor and hassle, I will pay for it.


Please fill me in on what all retro parts mean. ..

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

To run a factory roller cam in your older block, you'd have to change the timing set; change the thrust button; and put in something to take up the thickness of the retainer plate. You could take an OE retainer plate and grind the ears off, for example.

Seems like alot of trouble and expense to go through at this point, when you could instead, just order the right style of cam.

Retrofit cams aren't that hard to come by, in and of themselves. There just aren't NEAR as many of them bought and sold as there are either flat tappets, or factory style rollers; so people don't stock NEAR as many of them. Stocked items sitting on a shelf are MONEY, to the people who make them; meaning, they have to open their wallet and shell out cash (buy parts, pay workers, rent floor space, etc.), to create them; and there's not alot of incentive to take money and just park it on a shelf someplace and let it sit idle for who knows how long just waiting for someone to happen along and want the item. So, unless you want a super popular grind like a Comp XR282HR or the like, the odds of THE ONE you want being in stock just sitting there ready and waiting, aren't real good. It's just the way the world works.

That said, if you have to wait for a cam ANYWAY, you might as well consider getting one custom ground. Doing that, you get to add the "custom" grinders to your list; people like Bullet, Cammotion, etc. For example, go to www.bulletcams.com and go to the Lobe Masters list; consider a cam with something like the HR280/350 lobe on the intake and the HR288/350 on the exhaust, on a 108° LSA and 104° ICL. Call em and see what they recommend.

Being a street car, I would not get TOO wound up over accommodating nitrous. The things you do to a cam that make it work the best with nitrous, namely, a very large and early-opening exhaust lobe, tend to KILL low-end torque. You're back around to giving up TOO MUCH (maybe) of street performance, the 99% of the time usage, to favor the 1%. Not wise, if you're not willing to absorb the compromise. Put the thing you expect the car to be doing the most of, at the TOP of your list of important characteristics. Apply the "Pareto principle". In your "decision matrix" of designing "the perfect cam", I'd put optimizing for nitrous several notches below optimizing for normal street duty: in other words, pick a great street cam FIRST, then make sure it's not just stupid wrong for nitrous, and leave it at that. Not the other way around. Otherwise, you'll end up right back where you are now, with a cam that doesn't satisfy; just, it'll be a different dirt road you took a left turn onto this time, but the end result will still leave you short of your goal.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Man, this cam stuff is really hard to figure out. There are just so many different options. I wanted to stay away from custom since I don't know enough about cams to make a decision on each # that i need to know.

Is there some kinda of CAM calculator kinda thing that you can input all kinda of parts that you might have and it tells you a ballpark cam?

I am just worried about wasting time with companies over the phone since I don't know all my motors stats super well.

Aren't custom cams really $$$$?

Like $350+?...

Maybe I can figure out what the best option is from CRANE, LUNATI, BULLET and compare the results. Then decide from there...

At this point I need help figureing out what all the # mean...

I understand duration, and lift the best. I understand what LSA is, but what is "104° ICL" ??

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

LSA = Lobe Separation Angle

ICL = Intake Center Line

The ICL is the timing event off of which all others are measured. It is the thing you can move around by advancing or retarding the timing set.

The LSA is the number of degrees of cam rotation (it's twice that many degrees of crank rotation) between the exhaust centerline and the intake centerline. It's ground into the cam, and CANNOT be changed once the cam is made; when you do the timing set thing, the exh moves too, and stays in the same relation to the intake.

Recall that the 4 strokes, starting with the firing event, are power, exhaust, intake, and compression. The ICL is roughly at the center of the intake stroke. The exh CL is roughly at the center of the exh stroke, some 90° of cam rotation (180° crank), or (usually) a little more like 110° or 114°, before the ICL. Therefore the larger the LSA is, the earlier the exh valve opens; which is helpful with nitrous, since in essence you are packing the cyl far fuller than it could otherwise be, with liquid oxygen and fuel. You can't get the next load in until you get the last one out. But, as the cam is changed to make it open earlier, it reaches the situation where it opens at some point during the power stroke. Obviously the cyl stops doing work at that point, since cyl pressure goes away QUICK once that valve starts to move. The lower the RPM, the more dramatic that effect is. Which is why a nitrous cam is bad for low-end torque, relatively speaking.

104° ICL = the peak opening of the intake valve occurs 104° ATDC as the piston is going downwards on the intake stroke. Just a little past halfway down. That's pretty typical, nothing special there really. Likewise, the int stays for open a certain amount of the compression stroke before it fully closes, which is why it affects "dynamic compression ratio" so much. Lower ICL #s = "advancing" the cam = int valve events are earlier = favors low RPMs and idle quality.

Yes a custom cam would probably be around $350. For that matter, so would an off-the-shelf one, from about anybody but Comp or GM; which are "only" around $275 or so.

You are currently posting on a live cam calculator. I don't know of any other kind of one; too many variables. Engine Analyzer Pro, DD2000, etc. can help somewhat. They can allow you to change one variable at a time and see the predicted effect. But I know of no way to put in a bunch of stuff into something and have it spit out a cam part # that's "perfect". Like, how are you going to tell the software how "lumpy" of an idle you're willing to tolerate, or what gas mileage you want?

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Ok, well if I get a custom cam, what should I get. Cuz I guess I don't need to "look around" anymore since I am going to tell them what I want.

I guess the deciding factor here is how I want the car to drive. So here goes.

-I def don't need a nitrous cam, I just want it to be nitrous friendly.
-Good vacuum, but not nuts, I do have the can so I am ok with 10-13", whatever.
-Idle would be nice if it was simply "OK". I like some lope in there and I am used to a HUGE cam so anything smaller will seem tame, and that is good.
-I want all the power to be in by 6000. I pretty much have never even got up there cuz the car is screaming. So even a little lower would be fine.
-I want more TQ down low so it is fun from light to light.
-Dont' know what else I can say appart from I don't care what the car sounds like and I just want it to work with an RPM air-gap.


sofakingdom, Orr89RocZ and others:

Can you guys recomend a set of specs that I can call up a cam company to talk about? Who should I get a custom cam from for my street car? bullet? Crane?

Can't believe I am gonna get a custom grind, allways thought i was going with an off the shelf part, but you have convinced me.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Just call a bunch of em and see what they have to say. Tell em what you've got, what you don't like about it, what you do, etc.; and see what they tell you. At worst, you can say "bye" and hang up the phone.

Comp, Crane, Lunati, Crower, Isky, Bullet, Cammotion, different ones of us have mentioned so far .... there's probably others. Google "custom camshaft" and see what it turns up if none of those guys peels your banana.

Keep in mind also, an "off-the-shelf" hyd roller is almost invariably going to be a cast core; but a "custom" one will usually be a billet core. Make sure you tell em you need the cast distributor gear.

406maro

iTrader: (1)

I ordered mine through Clay Smith Cams out of California. They were pretty helpful and know their stuff. If your wanting to spend the extra money.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Here's a custom cam using catalog lobes I just spec'd today with Comp Cams for a 383 LT1 that will do daily driver as well as dragstrip duty.
It will peak just under 6000 rpm with a 2-plane intake, but will easily rev past that.

SPEC CARD# 13007007
PART # 07-000-8 LT1 CS LT1 ROLLER
CORE C07-8A LT1 DUCT SEMI (L.L)
GRIND # LT1 3314S/3315S HR110+4
DURATION @ .050 INTAKE 224 EXHAUST 230
LOBE LIFT INTAKE .3350 EXHAUST .3400
LOBE SEPARATION 110.0
INTAKE C/L 106.0
DUR @ .006 TAPPET LIFT INTAKE 276 EXHAUST 281

VALVE TIMING .050
VALVE OPEN INTAKE 6
VALVE OPEN EXHAUST 49
VALVE CLOSED INTAKE 38
VALVE CLOSED EXHAUST 1

JOURNAL DIAMETER STD 1.868
GEAR TYPE CAST
SMALL BASE CIRCLE NO
LOBE SPACING STD
INTAKE BANK ANGLE STD
EXHAUST BANK ANGLE STD
REVERSE ROTATION NO
REAR PUMP DRIVE NO
FUEL PUMP LOBE YES
MATERIAL AUST
FIRING ORDER STD

It would definitely fit the bill for what you're asking.
You'd just need to tell them the non-factory roller specifics of your engine.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

This is the CAM Im using....IM not tuned right and I havent had it dynoed yet so Im not sure how much power its making. I want to get me a set of 1.6 rockers and bring the Lift up ..cause right now Im using 1.52's

Cubic Inch and Engine Type 383 CID Small Block Chevrolet
Camshaft Type Hydraulic Roller
Firing Order STD SBC
Cam Bearing STD SBC
Lobe Separation 113.5
Overlap at .050” 2.2 Degrees

Camshaft Measurement Intake Exhaust
Duration at .006” 281.5 286.5
Duration at .020” 255.5 260.9
Duration at .050” 226.0 232.1
Duration at .200” 145.4 151.7
Lobe Lift .34961” .35323”
Rocker Ratio 1.52 1.52
Gross Lift .531” .537”
Lash HOT HYD HYD
Designed Lobe Centerline 110.9 ATDC 116.0 BTDC
Open at .050” 2.1 BTDC 52.1 BBDC
Close at .050” 43.9 ABDC 0.1 ATDC
Lift at Top Dead Center .0587” @ 110.9 In. Cente .0591” @ 116.0 Ex. Center

Cranking Compression 189 PSI
Vacuum At Idle 15.7 Inches
Idle RPM 850 RPM
Peak Torque RPM 4400 RPM
Peak Horsepower RPM 5500 RPM
Torque Convertor Stall 4000 RPM to 4500 RPM (Flash In High Gear At 5-10 mph)
Starting Shift Point RPM 6300 RPM
Starting RPM To Cross 6600 RPM

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The Bullet lobes I posted will give you 280°/288° at whatever lift John P. calls "advertised"; 225°/230° @ .050"; .525"/.525" peak lift. Nice wide lobes. Asymmetrical (tapered on the trailing slope) so they set the valves down easy, less float and less noise that way.

Like I said, I'd keep the LSA kind of tight, like 108°; certainly NO MORE than 110°; ICL at 104°.

That should give you peak torque in a 383 at about 4300RPM, peak HP at 5400, shift at 5800. Should comfortably tolerate a converter with about 2400 stall, optimum would be more like 2800-3200.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Ok, crap this is complicated. I am taking this one step at a time. Going to call them on the way home. right now.

Don't worry about stall, car is a 6 speed

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

another guy has a similar cam in his 355 LT1 as wishmasters cam..but his was custom ground from advanced induction. 226/234 and good deal of lift. ran low low 12's at 117 with that cam. peak was around 6200 i believe. in a 386, that would be around 5700-5800. i think thats where you want to be.

tell a cam company what you got and say you want peak hp to be around 5800 or so. That be ideal for that combo

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

OK, so I called a few companies yesterday after work. Crane, Comp and advanced induction. Lunati wouldn't pick up.

Comp had the best tech help. We worked together to come up with something good. advanced induction wants me to up my CR with a thin head gasket and then get a custom cam. Probably too much $ there. Crane was OK, but the tech guy seemed pissed when I was talking to him. He still helped though.

Anyways, I am just doing the cam selection now through my dyno shop that I get all my work done at. The owner is very smart and can look though years worth of dyno pulls with different cams and combos. So he looked up a couple and I am working with him to find something good that will take the least amount of parts replacement.

Then I am having him toss the cam in, the intake on and dyno tune the car. That should finally get me where I want to be power and drive wise. Then I can do a little cosmetics and be done with the car.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Hey everyone. i just wanted to say thanks for all the help with figuring out all the CAM selection stuff.

I have talked to my Dyno guy and he seems to have an idea of what the car might need. We are working togeather to find what is going to be best. I am def talking the advice and running smaller rather than larger on the cam. I want to really keep the revs down. Hopefully with less over lap I will get a higher dynamic comp ratio and find some more power. The intake is ordered. I get the permastar coated RPM air-gap. Should look great.

I am hoping to not need anything else but a cam, but i guess I might need new springs. We will see.

You guys think I am going to end up needing new ones? And how much do you think it might cost to have them toss the cam in? Should I just do it myself over the winter. I am pretty sure I can do it, I just want a dyno tune right after so I fugired they could just do it all....

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Probably not; but you can tell your cam mfr what you've got, and see if they're OK. I'm guessing though, anything that will work with what you have now, will be totally fine with a slightly smaller cam as well.

Out of curiosity, what is your local guy suggesting? Have you told him what input you've got from here?

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, i told him everything pretty much, just in a nut shell. I told him people have been saying go small. Like 230 ballpark and not to go more than 236 at the top limit, and that would be for the exh. Prob going to stick with 226 int. 230 Exh, something like that with a 113 LSA. Stuff like that.

He thought I might need new springs, but that was just cuz he doesn't know what I have now. I am going to tell him all my specs today and see if he comes up with something better.

He is a nice guy. He spent some time looking through years of dyno pulls to find something similar to what I want my car to do where he acctually knew what cam was in the car.

Based on that he is working his way at finding something good. I might have him install it so I don't have to freeze my ***** off in the garage over the winter. But not too sure yet. It might be a crap load of $ to have them install it. Might be a great learning experience for me too since I have never really done motor work.

I built the whole car myself, but just tossed the motor in off a pallet. The intake is on its way so I figure I will be ordering the cam this week if everything goes OK. I am still driving it as a DD and it was 27* F this morning. haha. craziness.


After this cam and intake I am not going to play with the motor at all till I get out of school and get another car. Then I will toss a couple turbos on it and call it done.

sofakingdom: Is there anything else you think I should tell him when I ask him about the cam?