i just got an 87 firebird a few days ago, the full story about that is in the history / restoration thread area. It's unknown to me whether the engine seized up many years ago or the tranny went, i heard both, don't know what happened. SO i want to see if i can diagnose what happened to it, start it, or even just get it to crank. I know the gas, oil and battery are no good but where do i go from there? Advice on how to go about this?

boy this really just a trial and error thing


first try and spin the motor over by hand with a 3/4" socket (size?) and a breaker bar. If it spins thats good. then change the oil so when you start it you have fresh oil running through it. Install an new battery or jump start it. I recommend the earlier of the 2, a jump can some times not be enough to start a stone dead battery. With the gas issue an engine will still start but run like piss until u put some new good gas in. This is about ur only way of going about starting a motor after sitting.

Jason

ah forgot i should save myself alot of work and see if it'll turn by hand. Now if it doesn't that means the engine seized and it's dead right?

Yup! No point in going any further if it wont turn, make sure it will turn a full 360 degrees.

3/4 was correct, didn't have access to a breaker bar today but i still went to turn it, it turned only 30 - 40 degrees before i stopped. it took moderate - alot of strength to turn it (normal?) still could mean it seized right? i just stopped and forgot to go back to it later, plus it was a bitch.
Now one more thing, my friend who knows about cars usually said i threw off the timing or something by doing this, is that correct? can i still attempt to get it to crank at the very least

^^^^^^^^ anyone??
i'm going to be at the point where i want to try and fire it up one day this week hopefully. i know i need to replace the oil, check the spark plugs, and planned on putting a small amount of oil down the spark plug holes to get the oil in there, is there anything else i can do, should do?

If you can turn it at all by hand that means it is not siezed. These motors are pretty hard to turn over by hand unless you pull the spark plugs out. When you go to check the plugs, pull them all out and then try to turn it over. Is the distributor still in the engine? If it is then you didn't do anything to the timing by turning the engine over. I would pull the distributor out though and prime the engine oil system before cranking it with the starter.

Alright, took the hood off today, that was a pain, what's SF Oil? i Took the dipstick out, the oil is blacker than anything. It says use sf oil. Also how much/ what kind of oil does the v6 87 firebird hold?

hey i got a 87 firebird for u cheap lets say 400 bucks? ttop auto v8 and 700r4 trans good body

X2 on pre-oiling before starting. i left my GTA unstarted for a whole year and when i went to start it made thunking sounds and then after a minute i heard a loud bang. upon dissasembly i found the the #7 connecting rod broke in half. so yeah, definitely pre-oil.

Any pictures? maybe alittle later when i can spend the $400 plus shipping.


so i haven't pre-oiled an engine before, take the spark plugs out, put alittle oil down there, drain the current oil out and put new in, take the distributor off.... then what???

no oil down the sparkplug holes.. after you drain the oil then put the new oil in. get an oil pump priming tool.. most of them look like a long hex key that will attach to a drill.. then you put it down the distributor hole and at the bottom just past the gears there should be a "slot" that the key goes in and you just spin it which will pump the oil to the spots you want...
btw.. youre so lucky its not locked up... mine is right now... its a 355 that has no miles on it at all. it has sit for five years in a garage and i bought that and an 84 transam for 800.. it wont turn over at all and im looking for some suggestions if anyone has any
.

Best I can tell you is your going to have to pull the engine and tear it down. Have the block honed if rust hasn't completely taken over, new rings, bearings everywhere. may have to get a new cam as well.

if the plugs have not been removed, chances are the blocks not rusty, change the oil, pre lube the motor by spinning the oil pump, MARK THE DISTRIBUTOR POSITION BEFORE REMOVAL! siphon the fuel out of the tank, remove the fuel line from the motor, put fresh fuel in the tank, turn the key and run the fuel ump a few times to purge the nasty gas from the lines, hook the lines back up prime the fuel system, then try to start it. it will be hard starting for a few min, but if its good it should fire.

where do i get an oil priming tool?




I don't know hardly anything when it comes to distributors, mark how? and what am i marking? to make sure the firing order doesn't get messed up? ohh and how do i get to the oil pump, through the distributor or they aren't related to each other...

the oil pump is driven by the distributor, mark the position of the rotor in correlation to the distributor then mark the distributor in correlation to the manifold, remove assembly, inside the distributor hole at the bottom you will see the cam gear, then in dead center you will see a hexagonal shaft sticking up, that is what you need to turn clock wise to prelube. u can make the tool you need or buy it from any store that supplies performance parts for chevy engines.

alright i hope this will make more sense to me actually looking at it tomorrow, will a sharpie do? i'm sure i'll be back with more questions afterword. oh so i guess autozone doesn't have that prime tool?

wow did i say the oil pump is in the distributor? lol, lemme fix that before i get flamed, the oil pump is DRIVEN by the dirtributor lol. yes use a sharppie, and no autozone probably wont have it, get a socket that will fit it on a extemsion and spin it.

stupid question, where is the distributor on this car? i mark everything before removing anything correct?

its just behind the intake manifold, all the ignition wires are going into it.

^ What he said.
This is a distributer...

ah found it, thanks, i feel stupid should of known just follow the spark plug wires. I have the cap off and now i'm lost, i dont know what to mark... i've been taking detailed pictures of it beofre i touch anything hoping that'll help if i mess up. i can't even tell what the rotor is on this.. that plastic thing on top with a pointer sticking out? DO i have to anything before removing the assembly, mark it right? mark what..


i took this about 5 minutes ago to post here.

where are you located first off? second, mark the plastic piece uptop (rotor) with the sharpie on the housing so you know where it was pointing, then clean the distributor base and manifold and mark where the distributor lines up to the manifold, pull the retainer bolt out(under the base) and remove the distributor

millville, new jersey? alright i think i marked everything correct, does this have to exact?

I would mark where the rotor is pointing at (on the car body or on the motor) BEFORE you start to remove it, AND mark it again when you get the distributor up from its mounting pad a few inches because the rotor will turn as you pull it out. When reinstalling, line the mark that you made with the distributor up a few inches up with the rotor and as the distributor goes down to its mounting pad, the first mark you made should line up with the rotor. That will keep the motor "in time". If it is off by just one tooth on the camshaft gear that you can see down in the whole when the distributor is out, it will be "out of time" and probably will back fire, belch, spit and cough trying to start. Just some tips I learned working for an ex-Marine machanic that really knew his stuff, may he rest in peace.

One other thing - when you prime the motor, you will change the position of the oil pump shaft orientation, so you might have a hard time getting the distributor to go all the way back down when trying to reinstall. IF THAT HAPPENS, put the distributor in in any position that it will go all the way down to its pad, then pull it back up, turn the rotor left or right a half inch or so and keep reinstalling, making sure it goes all the way down to the mounting pad, again and again until your FIRST mark (the one you did before you moved ANYTHING) lines up again. It will take your patience, but just keep at it and you'll notice the rotor keeps lining up at a different spot until you get to your original mark. Was that about clear as mud? It can be a bit complicated, but not terribly complicated.

thanks. Now another stupid question, how do i get the assembly out? i have the cap off and thought the assembly came out with the removal of these two bolts, guess not so..

There is a 9/16" (I believe, may be 1/2") bolt holding the distributor in and it is located at the BASE of the distributor, where it disappears into the block. It is holding down a kinda U shaped bracket that stradles the neck of the distributor. Take it out, the U shaped bracket will be loose, so hold it with your fingers or it might dissappear behind the block and take it off also, these will go back when you re-install. When you then pull up on the distributor, it should start coming up out of the block. this is when it is important to note what direction the rotor is NOW pointing, and mark that spot either on the car firewall, inner fender or motor (depending which direction it is pointing). From that point you can continue with the previous instructions for priming. Marty

Now when you say base you mean the flap thats like 2 or 3 inches from the rotor? i still cant find it, is the bolt horizontal or vertical?

Edit: i think i found it, it's just below that flap right? but how on the earth am i suppose to get it? seriously the distributor itself is blocking my access.


Edit 2: Is the bolt i need to take off the one my wrench is on? or is it the one directly behind the wrench (not in sight) kinda past the green & yellow wires?

From the angle of your last picture you would be able to see the bolt if you moved the conduit. Once you see it, you'll instantly know what to do.

I can't see what bolt your ratchet is on but, I know it's at the wrong angle to get the bolt you're after.

guys i didn't know i needed a distributor wrench, new problem, the 9/16 socket almost/so close fits the bolt, but 15mm hits the mark, where am i suppose to get a 15mm distributor wrench? or better yet someone come take this damn thing out for me it's been over a day now spent trying to get the thing out


New question: anything else i can do to the car while it's on jack stands to change the oil? 87's don't have oil filters???

Edit: Just throwing it out there, i'm new at this so i don't know but if i put the distributor cap back on, change the oil, pull the spark plugs and turn the engine by hand wouldn't that get the new oil flowing or no...

LOL All automotive engines have oil filters and yours should be located on the drivers side of the block hanging down back by where the transmission bolts on. you get to it from under the car and should be visible when you pull the plug on the oilpan. YOU COULD change the oil and filter and IF you have the plugs out the motor will prime itself with the new oil but not start. You would want to crank the engine over until you see oil pressure on the dash gauge (assuming it has one). That will get fresh oil to the main and rod bearings and the camshaft, lifters and rocker arms.

Good luck with getting the passenger side rear plug out, it is a knuckle buster and a pain to get out, but persistance will get it if you have too.

there should be an oil filter on the drivers side of the motor, close to the trans. as fir the distributor, yes its a 15mm. usually stores like pep boys carry distributor wrenches, but if you can find on you could always buy a cheap 15 and bend it.

I am going to suggest that you get someone over there that knows a little about cars..If you do pull that distributor out and dont mark it correctly you will NEVER get that thing to run. Get a cheap haynes or chiltons manual before you start pulling vital parts out/off...

Gotta agree with Steve on that one. Thanks Steve, sounds like its a bit too much for a novice, so a second opinion would be wise if you know a mechanic or have a friend that does some of their own work have them take a look at your dilemma.

LOL at not seeing the oil filter, i'm use to looking at the ls1 block.
Alright so if i do all of this with the oil, and crank it until the pressure rises i'll be good? This distributor thing is a piece of **** Do i pull one of the spark plug wires to ensure it doesn't turn over till i want it to?

Yeah a manual sounds like a good idea. I do have a friend who knows alot more about these cars than i do. He works at Goodyear and has owned his share of T/a's throughout the years. i'm hoping i dont have to pull the distributor, (lol like i could) i did mark everything though.

i usually dont pull the distributor and prelube personally, i just make sure the car spins free and change the oil and freshen the fuel and start it, all the cranking prior to actually starting will bring the oil pressure up. never had an isue

Same here.

i'm reviewing this whole thread as i'll go back to working on it this week hopefully and this caught my eye. I can prime the motor this way by pulling the spark plugs out but it wont turn over if i try to start it? because there's no spark plugs, duhh, or priming the motor this way somehow will cause it not to turn over?
just wanted to understand that statement.

basically the engine will not start obviously, but will turn the oil pump and prime it, also the lack of compression will keep any stress off the bearing till the engine is primed, a good, but time consuming way to get an engine primed

out of ten people two told me to do this.. the other eight said to try putting tranny fluid down the spark plug holes and let it sit.. which i did and now i can turn it over by hand.. im gonna see how it runs for now but if it runs crappy or has bad noises or power im gonna do a total tear down. thanks.

i would like to know how it runs when you do start it. Maybe you or someone can answer me these questions. 1.) What type of tranny fluid to use? (it's a 1987 2.8L engine) 2.) how much and 3.) when you say let set, a few hours, all day?? and can this cause any kind of damage? i've heard you can also use marvel oil?, to put down the spark plugs but advance auto did not have any.

^^^ Screw that earlier post ^^^ although i would like to know, i currently have the engine able to turn and crank now. it wont turn over but i'm hoping that's because the battery wasn't able to hold a charge. i didn't have long to mess with it before i had to leave somewhere. i wonder what the likely hood is i'll have to do something more like change the spark plugs or wires.
what other ignition system parts might i have to mess with? i inspected the distributor cap & rotor, both seemed fine for being over 20 years old (never did get the damn distributor out, primed the engine best i could without taking it out.) hopefully next week i'll be working on the body and done trying to get the engine to start

if i still lived in jersey i would drive down and help yea out but im in va now..

LOL Replace all the cap, rotor, wires, plugs etc. I did an engine swap and after five years (school was a priority) of sitting on a shelf all the ignition stuff was bad. I rebuilt almost my whole distributor and boy what a difference. Also replace the battery, maybe the terminal bolts, and give it a shot. I also asked a neighbor who had been at it for years to look at the car for me and he said I got everything done except the timing was thrown off. Helped me set the timng, and I did a couple other things and the car runs. (However, at the moment it won't start because its not cranking probably the starter fried itself again but thats another story)

The one thing to remember is FAST, Fuel, Air, Spark, Timing. If you have all four the car should run. Looking at the distributor photo, I'd say that your ignition stuff is definitly shot. I'd drive down but its a two hour drive, and I'm not familiar with south jersey like I used to be. But if you really need a hand with the basics...maybe we can figure something out, I won't be able to do anything for a couple weekends though. Some things however, I'm still getting used to, as some things are easily done and quick for me and some things I still need practice.

You say you have the car cranking...is it cranking fast or slow?

Oh yea and about priming it....you don't need to do that. As long as there is fresh oil in there and you can turn it you are fine.

thanks for all the offered help guys. i took a video of the car cranking over to answer your question L695speed. As you'll see in the videos the oil pressure gauge hardly rises at all when it's cranking, is that bad, normal? i wanna guess it gets to about 15(what ever the pressure is measured in, psi?) and not far from the red at all i should mention i don't think all if any of the gauges are accurate, the gas tank reads full and it's far from it so...

with this said it still wont turn over, but it has gotten closer and closer every time i've tried, i'm hoping the jump box i have it hooked up to will give it enough juice eventually. Is cranking it burning any fuel? i would assume so and maybe a very small amount of old fuel is burning off before the new fuel i put in reaches the engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aDirkeU35w


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ugm3KkbdMA

is the fuel pump priming?

alright guys, update, it's been awhile. The car started! i had my friend come over at about 8 or 9 one night, i was trying to remove the spark plugs and couldn't. he wanted to see/hear the engine crank so hooked it up to the jump box and gave him the keys, he turned the key and omfg it turned over. i looked at it, screamed, and ran on the street yelling for my neighbor to come out. it ran for a good two minutes before i took the jump box off and it died about 30 seconds later. i was pissed i wasn't the one who got it to turn over but hey it started finally. It didn't even sound like it cranked for more than a second it just started like nothing... now monday i'll hopefully have the title in my hands and the whole restoring project can begin (yes i probably should of gotten it first but if i was just going to end up parting it out no point, and if the "owner" of the car can't find the title i'll be crushed)

Now with this said how the hell do i get the spark plugs out, i thought it was a 5/8 socket, took the 5/8 spark plug socket to it and wouldn't go on, i can't tell if it's to small or it's not getting all the way down to the plug for some reason. is there something i'm missing for removing these?

That was the worst part of my plug job, Even getting the rotting boots off wasent as hard as that.