Brandon Franke

Well its time for me to buy my first car (finally) and ive really been looking into thirdgen camaros/birds as my first car. I will be driving about 5 miles each way to and from school plus a little more everyday. Im ok at working on cars. The cars in my price range have 125k-200k miles and im trying to figure out if id be able to maintain one as a DD. I know that its obviously not as easy as driving a brand new 4 cylinder civic. What things will be likely to fail in this mile range? And do you think a 16 yr old person who can do simple bolt on stuff and a little more be able to maintain it as a DD?

I know alot of that depends on the car, driver etc. But just a general idea as to how much maintenance id have to do would be helpful.

DeltaElite121

I DD'd mine from the end of highschool throughout most of college before I dedicated it as a project car completely. They're great cars, but they WILL have their problems. I got lucky and my car at 124K only had the fuel pump and eventually the waterpump go out... and finally the clutch. Realistically all wear items well past their prime.

Don't go buying one of these cars thinking they'll be perfect, because they're not unless you shell out big bucks for one. Anticipate repairs of SOME type every year and you'll be fine.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

I bought my lo3 5 speed firebird 6 years ago and it only left me stranded 1 time due to a faulty coil .. And I bought it with 165k miles on it for 3k$ ... But it was also a 1 owner car which was a 60 year old woman who maintained everything with factory ac Delco parts (GM dealer repairs) throughout its life

stealtht/a

iTrader: (1)

Your profile doesn't say where you live. If you have winter weather, you won't like driving an fbody in it.
I would say you can have just about any car you want. You only drive 5 miles, it's school so you can prob get a ride if it doesn't start, you're 16 so your insurance will be ridiculous for any car. If you are willing to turn a few wrenches and are ok with have a car that is a little rough around the edges, go for it!

RyanJB

My insurance was only $110 a month at 16 for my bird. The 05 Focus I had prior to it was nearly double the cost for the same coverage. I wouldn't be too concerned.

I was able to do most of the maintenance on my bird after I bought it but I had some experience already (rebuilt the aforementioned Focus's bottom end) These cars are pretty simple and straight forward and easy to work on. I don't think 125k miles is too much considering you drive ~10 miles a day, my trans went at 160k going up a hill and that seems to pretty fairly common around here at least. Also, driving it in snow isn't terrible, I would certainly avoid it when possible though.

Formula 305

My 90 'bird has 192k on the clock but I DD it more or less. I do have a 98 Jeep that I drive in the snow and on the rare occasions when the bird is broken down.

Only broke down on me once, ICM issue, easy fix.

If its going to be something your going to DD I would look for a later model car (88 or newer). The later auto transmissions were a little stronger than the earlier ones and EFI is always nice in a DD. Are you thinking of a V6 or V8 car? Fuel mileage in my 305 TBI automatic car was like 17 around town and 22 highway. Never really drive in the city so idk what the city mileage would be.

c.johnson8907

I paid 800 for my 84 z28 rocked that thing up and down the east coast for 2 years. heres the "replaced" list this far and in order water pump,fuel pump,calipers,pads and shoes, and going onto my third trans but thats all my fault not the cars lol. ive had it for almost 3 years now and i dd it.

Winter driving isnt advised but can be done in a pinch.

and of coarse i go thru a set of rear tires just about yearly but like i said i dont drive my car easy

Brandon Franke

Im trying to find a v8. But a v6 is a possibility. The problem now is talking my mom into letting me get one as she says insurance is SO high on camaros even though ive quoted it cheaper than ALOT of other cars ive looked at. Preferably a stick too but id do with a 350 auto.

fireburdluvr85

I daily drive mine 45 miles a day. Have 196k on the dash. I bought it at 137k 4 years ago and my work has gotten progressively farther. Other then a fuel pump and the popular upgrades on this site I can't say I worry much about being stranded. Drive it moderately and they are fairly tough. Beat the hell out of it, well hope u have deep pockets or patience to cruise the site looking for swaps. Currently on my 3rd motor ( obd2 swap), c5 front brake swap, 'ls1' rears swapped, 4th gen interior, etc. Read read read.

Brandon Franke

Hopefully itll survive the beatings of being in highschool. Some revs every day & 3/4 throttle pulls every other day and a floored pedal atleast once a week and... racing even though ill lose. Thats if I can be nice to it. I expect myself to get excited every single time I get to drive it. I mean im not gonna be redlining it or anything.

fireburdluvr85

Can't say I don't get into mine daily. I'm fairly hard on my car. Maintenance. When you understand how things work you also understand the limits of mechanical components. Take care of it and it'll take care of you.

Formula 305

I'm much more religious about maintenance with my Firebird than I am with my Jeep because of the extra abuse that the firebird gets put thru.

Use good quality oil, especially if its a high mileage car. I use Castrol GTX High Mileage and it hasn't failed me yet, and I run my car hard, WOT redline pulls passing cars in the mountains, some AutoX, track days, drag racing occasionally, ect, I pretty much do it all and I haven't broken anything yet.

rfoster23g

yes man ive learned so much about cars since i got mine there so easy to work on

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I'd say they're NOT good first cars, just because of all the maintenance involved on an old car.

BUT...

These cars ARE usually pretty easy to work on. Common problem areas are

1. Rust on floorpans, A-pillars, side window corners at the B-pillar
2. Leaky t-tops
3. Sport models got driven hard
4. Ignition failures (Especially parts store replacement ignition parts, I'd keep an extra ignition module and coil in the car with you at all times with a screw driver if I were you, I have gotten to the point where I expect one of those two to fail every two years)
5. Fuel pumps (you have to remove the rear axle to drop the tank, but it's really not that hard the way people make it out to be, but it is a common failure)
6. VATS (Vehicle Anti Theft System, 89-92 cars had this, as they age the contacts in the ignition switch that are activated by the resistor in the key begin to wear and give faulty readings to the computer, and will effectively strand you, for at least 3 minutes, which is how long the system takes to reset)

So basically, this is what I think is ideal for a first car.

150-175k miles
Hard Top
TBI 305 (RS model)
5 speed if you can find one.

It will be slow, but it will sound nice. The throttle body 305 make 170hp, which means as long as you keep oil in it, it doesnt make enough power to hurt itself. Also hardly makes enough power to hurt the transmission. I think they will just last longer. A similar engine was in trucks of this vintage and you see how many of those are still around. The hard top is good because you know it never had leaky t-tops, and the floor is MUCH less likely to have rust issues. The 700r4's tend to fail at high mileage on the 2-3 shift. If you get a 5 speed transmission, they are weak, but the 305 is so slow it cant really hurt it. Plus it will be much more fun to drive.

Get something mostly stock. But I think that's your ideal scenario above. I daily drove my RS with the factory stuff in it up to 190k miles. The 700r4 shifted fine to the end and the 305 ran great to the end too. I swapped them out to go faster, not because they broke.

If you go drive a car and see a bunch of hotwired switches everywhere, or it doesnt act completely normal, dont buy it. They can be good DD's but you have to get the right one. Get a high mileage survivor, not someone's project.

But when I say no due to the maintenance involved, I'm talking about things like tie rod ends, wheel bearings, shocks/struts, suspension bushings, brakes, headlight motors(firebirds), door hinge pins, steering boxes, hood struts, starters, fuel filters, rear main seals, clutches, oil pressure sending units, etc etc. Most of these are on ANY car, but on a high mileage car the intervals are long past for every single one of them, so basically if you went around changing everything that's past its recommended service interval, you can spend nearly the price of the car. So realistically you just drive it til something needs attention, but for any car of this age there will be another minor routine maintenance item to address every few months. It's not these cars in particular. The difference with these cars is all the replacement parts are cheap.

fireburdluvr85

Well said vortex!

Brandon Franke

T-Tops are a big thing for me but ill have to take what I can get since im paying for all of it by myself aswell as me paying insurance. My parents still think I wont be able to afford the insurance even though its cheaper than a late 90s civic. My mom also thinks theyre fast even though I keep telling her her 06 civic with 142hp could walk quite a few of the camaros and my grandmas v6 accord with 271 could walk alot of them stock because of the higher power and power to weight ratio. Hopefully shell realize they arent very fast and let me buy one.

Any things in particular to look at when I go to buy one?

Formula 305

Rust, mainly on the rocker pannels and floor pans, and mods like InfernalVortex said, you really DO NOT want to buy someone's project car.

Brandon Franke

I have around 6 months to buy it so hopefully one comes up in that time that I like. Well by that time ill have had a job for months hopefully so ill have a little more options. At the moment theres only one OK one on craigslist around me and it needs floorboards, windows, , battery, tires AND weather striping.... then a firebird that comes with 2 hoods & needs a heater core. Doesn't look like a project though. I hope something better comes up though. The prices went from 1000 $ early last year to 2500 $ this year.

RyanJB

Doing a heater core in one of these isn't exactly an easy task

eightTfourTA

iTrader: (3)

I kinda have a dumb superstition about buying used cars in general, although it seems to have applied with the four thirdgens i've owned and wrenched on, plus the 10+ other used cars i've had: If it has hacked engine and/or radio wiring, you don't want it. Every vehicle that i've either worked on or owned which fit that profile was a nightmare for me. Not so much because of the wiring in and of itself; but the other more mechanical aspects of said vehicles were in even worse shape! In all seriousness though, it's worth it to find something that hasn't had a million hands in it bearing good intentions, but yielding bad execution. If I could do it all again, i'd skip on the t-tops and their inherent rust and leaks. Out of the four thirdgens i've had, i'd vouch for the L03 (TBI 305) on reliability any day. It went nearly 185K miles before the motor failed, needing only external stuff replaced; and the last 100K were HARD miles. Worst problem it ever had was the fuel pump went towards the end of it's time with us, followed by the alt and battery going out once when we first bought it, then 5 years after.

irocwagon

Better run while you can,these cars can be real addictive!

Brandon Franke

Doesnt seem too too bad. I just dont know how to do anything with timing & tuning. (I can do carbs but im not the best either) stuff because it confuses me but ive never owned my own personal car so I guess it will come with time & this site.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

If you get one of these cars get a stock one. If it's stock, you're not gonna EVER touch timing or tuning. There's absolutely no need, and if it's your first/only car, I'd suggest you LEAVE it stock as long as that's the case.

The other thing about T-Tops and the inherent inevitable leaks and rust issues that develop, is that the leaks CAN be fixed. The T-Tops CAN be replaced after you forgot to latch it down and they take off on the highway and shatter...

But good T-Top seals cost quite a bit of money. Around $300 for the whole set, even new seals dont always guarantee no leaks. And then when you take the old seals off a lot of people find some scary rust surprises up there.

Brandon Franke

The only things I plan on doing is maybe mufflers or a full exhaust & maybe some kind of filter. Im not looking for any real performance gains.

Brandon Franke

What about a carb'd car? I know itd be easier to work on which creates some of the appeal. I dont know anyone who dd a carbed car so I dont know how bad itd actually be in cold weather outside etc. I dont think ive ever seen a stock carbed car either.

((Mike))

iTrader: (1)

I will second the reliability of the L03 TBI V8. Its a dog when it comes to power but VERY reliable. I think your better off with TBI than a carbureted car. I am thinking about selling my TPI car but I think its out of your price range and a little far away from you.

subroc

iTrader: (2)

The problem with the carbed car idea is now your talking an early third gen in most cases (82-86ish). I think you could still get a carb as late as 87 but not sure on that one. At any rate the older you go the more chance of problems and rust. There are clean ones that pop up but you gotta pay for them. Id vote to look into a 88/89 or so. The only reason i say those years are they are the last years before they switched dashes (in the camaro). The 90-92 dash is prone to electrical problems the earlier dashes are not.

Brandon Franke

Hmm, theres one sitting down the street from me thats been for sale for about a year. Its been sitting outside for atleast 10 years that ive lived here but it still looks really clean. I figured they wanted too much. But I guess Iim gonna have to go ask a price and look Iit over. I know it wasnt beaten to the ground either and it probably has low miles since ive never seen it driven. Ive seen them run it though so hopefully they dont want too much and want it out of their yard. I think its a 89 but im not sure. I dont remember but I think its a rs.

Caveman305

iTrader: (8)

I agree with sticking to an L03 car for your first if you get a thirdgen
they are simple motors and cheap to fix if diagnosed properly

the '89 RS in my sig and my info to the left was my first car, got it at 16/17 for $500 with 64k on the clock

the only "big" things i've had to do with mine was,

figuring out a stalling issue, while doing this i replaced almost ever sensor(wasn't cheap, was throwing parts at it), ended up being my ECM

Heater core, not as bad as people make it out to be, take your time and label the screws, everything will be fine

Fuel pump, just went out this year


other than that, regular maintenance and its golden

this car taught me a lot, its god awful slow but i love it, I use to drive it as a DD rain/snow/ice whatever, just don't act like an idiot behind the wheel in bad whether and it will do fine

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Fuel injection is reliable, modern, consistent, and efficient. Getting a thirdgen with fuel injection is, as far as Im concerned, your ONLY chance at getting something that's worth daily driving as a first car. Factory carb cars are a lot better than aftermarket carb cars because the factory did the R&D on them to make them work, but even then, the EFI is going to be vastly superior in MOST ways, ESPECIALLY for a stock engine and you shouldnt even be CONSIDERING a non-stock engine or ANY performance mods for a while. MAYBE a catback, but that's it.

Carbs may be "easier to work on", by some metric I guess... but EFI is much easier to fix. you find the sensor that's messing up (Check Engine Light will tell you) and you replace it, unplug it, unbolt it, bolt new one in, plug it in. Done. It runs like it did before. Carbs aren't even easier to tune. They're just CHEAPER and CHEAPER to tune. You dont need a few hundred dollars in electronics equipment to tune a carb car, and when you end up finally buying a couple hundred bucks in carb tuning parts (ie replacement parts of different sizes for internal carburetor parts) they will transfer over to almost any other carb in the same carb family which can work on a daily driver to a hardcore street strip car.

Also the EFI setups on these cars are terribly restrictive and impractical for high horsepower applications. That's why so many switch to carb, it's cheaper and easier than paying $2k+ for a high performance EFI setup. You dont need to get high horsepower or even need to touch the engine for anything besides basic maintenance. The restrictiveness of the factory intake manifolds for EFI are not a concern to you because they work perfectly when stock.

You want a car that drives like a modern car, that drives like a modern car does form the factory. Your best shot at that is a fuel injected car, period. Since you're not looking at performance gains, all the carb tuning and timing adjustments and "Easy to work on" stuff you keep getting hung up on is completely moot. Old school carbureted cars would need to be constantly tweaked and tuned to keep them running right. That may be why you think they're "easy to work on" because people used to do it all the time. And then your grandpa got his primitive fuel injection car and didnt know how to clean the EGR valve or didnt want to spend the money to replace the MAF sensor (TBI cars didnt have this, later performance models didnt either) and decried the awfulness of fuel injection.

Fuel injection is vastly superior in every single way for a daily driver stock engine car. There is absolutely NO reason whatsoever to desire a carb for a stock engine. The EFI engine will be much easier to work on and you will be working on it a LOT less. It will also likely have cylinder walls in far better condition to the more accurate fuel metering. That means more power, better gas mileage, and less oil consumption.

Ive never noticed them being prone to electrical problems? I really like the 90-92 dashes. The only beef I have is the tachometers that tend to go off the reservation, but that's actually a pretty easy fix with a soldering iron and doesn't really matter in the big picture for a daily driver.

Jake_92RS

I got my first Camaro when I was 15. I still have it today and I'm in college now. They are a fun car to have, and can be a good first car, but you have to be ready to want to put in some TLC so it drives like it supposed to otherwise it will go downhill and all you will have are problems. You really gotta take care of the important stuff on it before you put anything fun on it. It was a year and a half before I decided to do an exhaust swap, and you can't do a half *** job. Thirdgen birds/camaros fall apart easy if they aren't taken care of, why do you think you see so few of them? They either weren't taken care of and fell apart, or got wrapped around a pole. But I have to say they can be one of the best first cars you can get if you want to start learning how to work on cars. Even the TPI engines like the big ole L98 are not so complicated as to being impossible to work on at home. Hope I helped and didn't scare ya off, I highly recommend if you're into that kind of thing. Good luck!

GrumpyBadger

beyond the "issues" with the car,

you have to look at yourself.

how "special" is this car. Me personally, sometimes issues come up and drive me nuts. I've had my fair share of Craftsman break because of my temper, never on the car, but on the floor, or a wall lol (I recommend Craftsman btw, always, they don't ask at Sears how you broke the torque wrench . But when I'd take a break, see the car, in whatever state SHE wass in... I'd just smile. Heck, I'm smiling right now, remembering.

Case in point, I bought a 1969 Chevrolet El Camino with a 307 and TH350 in 2001. I was 18. She became my daily driver for 10 years off and on, whenever I wasn't deployed. Long story short, I lost her...

in that time, I learned a lot about cars, and not to be a sap, but even more about me. Now, having a nice, clean 2014 Chevy Impala, guess what? That Impala logo tugged at my heart strings and told me I was ready for another one. Because the smell of plastic and a damn computer telling me, vocally about my seatbelt/mpg/etc just doesn't quite fit the car really talking to me with a *tick* or a *rattle* or just screaming at 7000 rpm.

I could tell you a TON about that Elky. There's only one car I care more about in this world than that particular one. A Third-gen Bird with a manual. But even more importantly for me, at least, I'm a greasemonkey now. I go to car shows with no car, but hang out with them all. There's a bond that develops between people with nice cars that weren't bought on a dealership floor, but on the blood-stained floors of their garages.

Do I think you're ready? Only you can answer that question. By the time I was 20, I had over 600hp/and ft/lbs of torque at my toe-tips with 305s in the back that would shred in 2nd and chirp in third. It's all about responsibility, and respect for the cars, their history, and their heritage.

92g92

When I was trolling these boards at 16 asking the same question, I got a firing squad of "No!"'s. When did you all get cooler? Lol