BLACK Z

Everyone has there Ideas, so i have gotten different info from a few people here, some is a little different and some is way different. I do expect that and most is Probably not wrong just diffirent styles.

I think I will go with
RHS 64 CC/180 Runner Heads Straight plug.
Comp XE 264 or XE 270 Prob 264 Cam and Timing chain.
New Timing chain cover and Cam Button
Morrel Roller Lifters
Comp Push Rods Harden after I check Length.
Comp Roller Rocker Chrome Molly I think. 1.5.
I do want to stay away from .015 Gasket and Standard thinckness may be to thick so best bet Prob .026. I can check though.
I think that is all of what I will need.
I have to read Link about Fuel Pump Push rod I forgot to the other day.

Can I reuse Head bolts since they have only been used once?

DeltaElite121

Totally with you 100%. I understood what you were getting at, and I always hold that view. A huge chunk of this hobby is reading, so if you cannot do that effectively while comprehending it then this hobby is not for you. 60% reading/theory, 40% physical application. Most people don't have a clue on the reading portion (of all things).

BLACK Z

Skinny I just read your post on the Fuel Pump push rod, What did you end up doing?
Also you have roller Push rods? Is that somthing I should look into or are the Regular Harden Push rods fine?
Right now I use Amsoil Z rod oil but would like to be able to use a off the shelf Syn oil Instead of mail order.

skinny z

I hope you don't. Anyone that can pull the wheels in an Impala has to know something!

skinny z

That looks like it could be an effective combination of parts.
Steel rockers, yes. No problem moving up to 1.6 ratio either. The 264 or 270 is a little weak in the lift department and opening the valves another .030" or so will help.
Check push rod length, absolutely. I can relate another post regarding what happens when you FAIL to pay attention there.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...od-length.html
It's expensive! Well the worth the investment in a push rod checking tool.
Reusing head bolts is ok however if you make the move to aluminum (RHS has both material types in a 180cc runner) you'll need washers to go along with the bolts. Pretty sure that means you'll have to get replacement bolts designed to work with washers.

I kept that cam (with the wiped out fuel pump lobe) installed and made the switch to an electric pump in order to keep my season alive. That was probably ill-advised as the material that had worn off the cam was floating around in the oil galleries of the engine. That short block eventually made it's way to spare parts pile.
For the new cam, and seeing as I wanted to keep the mechanical pump (for several reasons none of which really matter here), I went with a lightweight fuel pump rod with a bronze tip. The theory here is that the bronze wears away rather then the cam. To ensure I wouldn't have any trouble I supplement each oil change with a bottle of GM's EOS. Cheap enough insurance for me.
I have a Comp roller tip fuel pump rod but I couldn't find one single person who has used it. It looks like another failure prone part to me and without proof I decided not to use it.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...fuel-pump.html

BLACK Z

Yes I will be using Aluminum heads for sure.
So your saying go to a 1.6 Roller rocker, You are saying the 264 and 270 lack some lift, Then why would the 276 not be good is it because of duration or something?

skinny z

That is correct. The longer duration of the 276 needs the higher static compression to be effective. The less than 9:1 you're likely to see with the dished pistons will work better with a shorter cam. Unfortunately, with duration, often goes lift and a step up to a 1.6 rocker will gain some of that back.

BLACK Z

Ok So 1.6 Roller rockers are safe to use then is there anything I need to watch for Springs or anything like that going to a 1.6? SO 264 Cam and 1.6 Rockers good combo.

The 264 Cam would still be a good cam when I step up the short block? I just want somthing that is fun to drive and has the power to back up its looks.

1gary

And I don't either.

1gary

The thing I don't like about 1.6's on the street is the end result your seat of the pants dyno will never detect.That is after you go threw the extra work checking all you clearances and buy the parts to adjust for those differences.Also how it effects the geo of the valve train.
In my mind there is all too much of a "like Mike" used on the street when race only applications are the true benefits gained by the 1.6 or even bigger rocker ratios.

I do like the direction your taking on the parts build you posted.Just keep it simple and use the 1.5 rockers.

skinny z

The 1.6 is a popular upgrade however Gary does bring up a valid point regarding the valve train geometry and how it may be affected.
The cam I've spec'd for myself is designed to be used with 1.6 rockers (Comp XFI lobes) but I will say that it's tough on valve guides despite my best efforts selecting the correct length push rod.
That said, some people have excellent results with the swap so some research here might shed some additional light on the subject.
As for the 264 cam, it's the right choice for a compression ratio of (potentially) less than 9:1. With the new short block and the ability to get the compression considerably higher, you'll find that cam to be a little small. What that may do is give you grief regarding your compression pressure (which may be too high) and all the problems that follow. What's more, the small cam will limit your horsepower potential and not take advantage of your new heads.
You might have known this going in (it's been pointed out) as the Goodwrench block and it's dished pistons are a compromise from the start. I'm not sure how long you intend to keep the Goodwrench short but certainly a couple of seasons is long enough to consider spending a little more later on and adding a bigger cam to you new short.

bestracing

Wow, been gone for awhile and this got a little rough

Yea I definitely agree with the aluminum rockers are not optimal for this application. For most street rodders they usually don't open up the covers as often to check things like this. I've caught many rockers getting stress fractures between the bearing and tip of the rocker arms on our race motors after just a few years on them. This is a motor that we would check pretty often too.

BTW even after saying this I was running Crane Golds on my 86. I don't put more than 2K (mostly closer to 1K) on my car in a year and I check the valves over the winter.

bestracing

Back in the mid 80's what I saw the 1.6 rockers being used for was to get a faster opening/closing rate on the valves since flat tappets are more limited on the slope vs roller cams. Kind of giving you more duration while the valve is open without increasing the total duration. Also I seen them used as an easier way of trying more lift without having to buy a new cam and lifters and tear into the motor again. Some of the locals called it a hillbilly upgrade

Now days it is better to get what you actually need in a hyd. roller cam and run 1.5 rockers. It keeps you from having to dig into the geometry more and helps keep the wear and tear on the valve guides and seals to a minimum

cuisinartvette

Ditto on the 1.6 theory
Used them on a very fast ramp solid valve tips were killed within 100 mi. Granted the pushrods werent the best but still. Theres a point where that 10lbs of tq drains 100 lbs of cash out of the wallet

if you want a super light FP pushrod check the howards composite. Had one for 2 yrs no wear. weighs....well pretty much nothing. lol

If you have the roller tip nothing wrong wiht it. doesnt really takea lot of stress

BLACK Z

If this motor makes me happy with the current short block I may not change it for years, If I am not then I will change it sooner.
I am looking for a car that starts right up idles, Can be in traffic or out in the open road.
I also want a car that when I give it gas I want it to go and make me smile.

1gary

You have just described a 383 or LSx.

skinny z

I think that the short cam will produce enough torque to make you happy enough. You'll also benefit from a smooth idle and good gas mileage provided you can tune a carb and distributor.

BLACK Z

Any Suggestions on where I should start with my timing for this Combo?

And as far as Power Valve goes, I have stock 6.5 in there now, Jabot had Recommended I go with a 10.5 with my Current combo, I have the 10.5 should I try that with the new combo or is teh 6.5 better suited?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I'd suggest, you should get started within the next year or 2. Otherwise some of the parts you pick might no longer be available.

Yes. Absolutely. Then leave whichever one in there that YOU find works better for YOU in YOUR car with YOUR fuel in YOUR locality the way YOU drive the way YOU want to.

We have a word for that... "tuning".

BLACK Z

I understand that, was just wondering which would be a better starting point, Ill by other if I need.

And I was just wondering what a Good start point for timing would be, My Dist has a bunch of different options as far as advance and curve go.

92Roadie

Are you still contemplating a cam/head swap for that Goodwrench 350? If so would picking up approximately 60hp/75lbft. for $300-$500 interest you?

BLACK Z

Yes I will be ordering the parts above within the month I think. What do you have to offer.

skinny z

Given that you'll have relatively low compression you should be able to zero in a curve without the fear of running into detonation.
I don't think it can be argued that a good starting point for starting the engine for the first time would be with the initial timing around the 10-12 BTDC mark.
If this were my engine and I knew the SCR was around the 9:1 with an efficient aluminum head, I wouldn't hesitate to limit the total mechanical available (via the advance bushing) and seek my total timing via adding initial timing as the tune progressed.
Example: Using the black bushing in the MSD kit will limit the mechanical advance to 18 crankshaft degrees. Add your initial timing of 10 -12 add you have a max of 30. Certainly that's low enough to keep you out of any timing trouble and you can add initial timing up to 16 degrees to bring your total WOT to 34.
You may or may not make additional power beyond 34. Remember, this is a "starting point".
As for the springs, just like the total, it's best to start off conservatively with heavy springs and lighten up of the tension as the tune progresses. This is best done at the track or the dyno where multiple changes and effect can be observed with back to back to back runs.
In my case, I use the MSD black bushing and run 16 degrees of lead for a total of 34. My 10:1 tune (which is very different from my 10.5:1 w/ iron heads) uses one heavy silver and one light silver spring. This starts the advance curve in around 1300 and is all in by 3000. Surprisingly the MSD chart is very close to what I found using a distributor machine and verified with a degreed balancer and timing light.
As for the vacuum advance, and I can't stress how important this can be to the overall driveability and mpg, is something that you'll have to experiment with. If you have the adjustable vacuum canister, for timing set-points (vacuum needed to start advance and what's needed for all-in) as well as the Crane adjustable vacuum can mechanism for timing totals, then you can tailor a curve to precisely match the needs of your combination.
But that's a different story than just getting to a good starting point as you've asked.

BLACK Z

Thanks Skinny, You have been a great help. Wish you were close Id pay you to tune this thing for me.

skinny z

Happy to help. The thing with tuning and getting someone to do it for you is that with a street car, it takes of hours of seat time to dial in any given combination. You might be lucky (and smart enough) to nail it right out of the box but most likely it's driving under all conditions that will determine where you end up. That can take a while. It's a little different with a dedicated dragracer or one where street manners and fuel economy aren't important.
One thing I meant to ask was whether you've done a compression test on this engine. It would be a useful piece of information to have especially if you have problems after you throw the new long block together and need to troubleshoot. It may also help somewhat in working out your potential compression ratio. (And don't forget, that it's recommended you pull the heads before ordering new ones. No telling what's in that Goodwrench block)

BLACK Z

I have not Checked Compression yet but I will. Do you mean Cranking Compression?

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Yes, and you might already know this, but when you check it, have the plugs removed from the other cylinders and the throttle and choke held open. Ignition and fuel disabled of course.

skinny z

All of the above.
It's better if the engine has been warmed too up but not critical. Just make a note if hot or cold.
If you include the temperature of the day and your altitude, I can run the numbers and calculate what your current compression ratio is likely to be.

BLACK Z

Ok, I'll check it, the car is in my shop at the moment but so is everything else, I have it tucked away for the winter. But Ill get it out in the next couple weeks and check it.

BLACK Z

I planned to get this done a while ago but stuff came up I do plan to order these parts within the next two weeks.

I called Lunati today and they said I should use this cam, Jabot recommended the same cam in one of the posts.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=4576&gid=289

How are there Lifters?
How does this cam compare to the ones below I was looking at?

Cam some of you guys said,

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=157&sb=2

Cam Comp said I should use

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=159&sb=2

Cam I was thinking of using

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...x?csid=158&sb=

DeltaElite121

I prefer Morel for all my lifters, but Lunati has good stuff from what I've seen. Some of their stuff crosses over and may actually be Morel but I can't remember with their lifters...And I wouldn't go with comp. Harold designed all comps successful grinds and he now works for Lunati where all his recent stuff is at (if you want a shelf cam). Lunati has all the recent cam revisions.

BLACK Z

I am not to good with figuring out the numbers, The Lunati cam is pretty close to which of the comp cams? WOuld I be pretty safe going with the RHS Heads and the Lunati cam and Lifters?