Gumby

Chevrolet Performance 10067353 GM Goodwrench 350ci Engine
GM Goodwrench 350ci Engine
260HP/350TQ
4-Bolt Main
3-Year/100,000 Mile Warranty

You save:
$796.34 (38%)
Now:
US $1,286.99

http://bit.ly/1odmY1N

chevymec

iTrader: (5)

That's a deal for someone needing a motor to get going.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

To make it go any faster you pretty much need a whole new engine though. There's nothing in that whole crate that can be used in a performance build except maybe the crankshaft and flexplate and damper and even that for lower power builds.

The warranty is nice, though.

Gumby

sligt price change, now its only 25% off

Now
$541.34 (25%)
US $1,541.99

Gumby

And now its bck to 38% off, they can't make up their mind sale must be working so they put it back to 38

You save:
$796.34 (38%)
Now:
US $1,286.99

http://bit.ly/1odmY1N

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

-But hey…260 HP and 350 TQ. The TQ is the biggie for a street car…that's a good price for something you just drop in and go (so to speak). For a car that's daily, or almost daily driven…that's pretty dang cheap!

-And the 3 year warranty!

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

260hp... by the time it's turning its own power steering pump and alternator through a stock dual-plane intake and exhaust system etc etc that's more like 170-180hp. It will run with stock L03 cars. It will outrun LG4 cars, though, for whatever that's worth. The 255hp L31 Vortec crate will actually make around 255hp in the car, and will be leaps and miles faster than this one. This is a utility van work truck engine, not a sports car engine.

But.... warranties are nice.

Also, tractors make a lot of torque. I dont see tractors winning traffic light races.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

If you think it only takes HP to get it done, I've overestimated your knowledge. TQ in a street car really does matter. Does in a drag car too. It's a measurement of POWER.

You really think you'll end up with 180 HP after install?? REALLY? That's some serious drive train loss there bud.

Let's look at drive train loss…normally 15-20 percent…lets even consider 20 percent…of 260 HP…that's 52 HP if my math is correct. Oh - take off another what…1 HP to turn the PS pump….C'mon. So that leaves a tad over 200 HP to play with, and more TQ than most 305's have.

I doubt they threw this particular engine on a dyno with a single plane intake and a Holley Dominator to get those numbers.

You felt is necessary to barge into the post only to point out it's not a drag strip burner…well...duh.

I think every knows that it isn't…it's what it is. An engine you can drop in a car and drive every day - nothing fancy and obviously not "high performance"…I never said it was. Glad you quoted me.

Remember….They put Iron Dukes and 2.8 V6's in these "sports cars" too…

1500 or so bucks and a 3 year warranty….not a bad deal.

Drac0nic

Chevy High Power did a whole bunch of articles on these. They made 265HP with a Performer and headers but no accessories except a mechanical WP. That was with mufflers as well. If you have a bad intake and exhaust you're going to end up choking any engine not just this one. It's not an end all be all performance engine but a cheap buy in for someone who wants their car back on the road and have a new engine. Back before everyone checked boxes in a catalog for performance or swapped in an LS people actually built up engines like this.

In regards to HP/TQ debate, that's a slippery slope unto its self. TQ is just TQ whereas HP is RPM dependent. Having the right gearing, converter etc. for the RPM range you're working at is the trick overall. While TQ may be "fun" in a street car if you have enough gear/stall in it you're going to have fun anyways. The only catch is are you willing to live with what that high RPM power does to manners. It's becoming easier to have it all, but you're still compromising at some level.

Gumby

guys on the 67-72 truck board are snappin em up fast, where I found the deal.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

The HP TQ debate is silly on all levels. TQ is force. HP is how fast you turn it. They are the same thing, just hp measures how fast you can turn the force you're making. You want to go fast, you spin your force fast. End of story. Just making al ot of force is great for 20 feet but as soon as the car with more hp per lb gets you out of your low end hp/tq advantage at 20 mph they're gone. If you dont have enough high end torque (horsepower) you can just throw some 4.56 gears in it, sure... but at some point you run out of gears.

And in reference to the magazines... Those guys generally dont measure engines the same way SAE net ratings work either. Those 305 articles are full of that kind of wishful thinking. In the magazine world where 305's make 400hp, a 260hp 350 is pretty pathetic.

Explain to me how an 882 headed smogger 8.2:1 compression 350 with a peanut flat tappet cam makes 5 more hp than a 9.5:1 Vortec 350 with a roller cam? The Vortec engine is superior in every single way, except the number GM likes to put in the spec sheet, but I know which one will win a race, and it's not the goodwrench.

Theyre almost perfect for something like that.


The goodwrench is a great option for a certain type of customer on a budget, but we deal with so many of those here where guys show up proud of their 350 swap and you have to give them the bad news that every single part of that motor has ZERO potential.

jbssbw

I have been looking for a motor and I am ready to buy. There is a shop near me that rebuilds engines and can build something around 300hp & 300tq, I was also looking at Tuff Dawg engines. Trying not to spend to much also have to pay for the install. Will this engine a good alliterative to a rebuilt?

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

MUCH better alternative:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/na...FUtk7Aodx2QAYQ

http://www.jegs.com/i/GM-Performance...30282/10002/-1

And you can actually make 350+ hp with this motor if you want to later on, and it will actually make the advertised 255hp through stock exhaust manifolds and intake... TPI might take a bite out of it, but not much.

Gumby

More money is always better, but for about $1000 if you take off cost of shipping, its a deal of a steal that you could not duplicate.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I agree, but look at it this way.

I can buy a brand new computer for $1k, or I can buy a 486 for $50. The 486 is great bang for the buck... but can it run firefox? Excel? Youtube videos? If all you need is to type up research papers it will do it! Goodwrench 350 is useful for people who are desperate for an engine and need a warranty and a way to get to work. It's not good for guys who have any aspirations of performance in mind. If they have any dreams of going fast, that engine is a waste and a sunk cost that will need to be tossed on a scrap heap. It's $1000 that could be going to a Vortec long block that has real potential even if they build a new engine, they can use parts off that vortec crate.

You're doing a service to the thirdgen community by posting up the sale, but people just need to know that this is a commuter engine, not a performance engine.

jbssbw

My 305 tpi is shot I need a new motor what am I looking at price for a good motor. This car is killing my wallet it has great bones so she' s not going anywhere. Just want to get the car on the road.

joshc

iTrader: (1)

I put the 260 hp gm crate motor in my T/A last year, I swapped a better cam in it before I dropped it in. With a Holley 670 street avenger, Edelbrock performer intake, and headers, its a pretty decent street motor. I think with a head swap down the road, I think it would make pretty good power.
Certainly not a high end drag race motor, but a good street motor. My buddy's 84 Camaro with a built up 305 with flat top pistons, a upgraded cam and some mild head work isn't any faster.

Gumby

http://www.corvettefaq.com/c3/goodwr...20part%201.htm

Drac0nic

The big problem with huge gears goes back to what I was saying about street manners. When you're on the highway with a non OD trans or even an OD one after a point, too much gear becomes undesirable to most people. What you're talking about is the "TPI effect" where the car runs outa steam and it gets worse with more gear.

Typical mags don't measure with SAE ratings. It's truly one of the flaws with the way they do reviews. Not to mention it goes back to the first part of this, yeah they may have made 400HP under similar circumstances but is it something that's going to be tolerable to most? I mean, if you're not running power brakes, can take the mpg hit, don't mind lope/surging go ahead.

If you look at a typical L82 engine their HP is something in the 200ish range when net ratings hit. Nothing near the 255 net that the Vortec engine makes. Besides that, it's the exact same way a Ramjet 350 crate makes "350hp" although it has a different intake and a mite bigger cam in it. I believe this engine also uses the 194/204 cam as well, not the peanut cam.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I agree that what im talking about is "TPI effect" but it applies to any engine, the smaller the cam the more it applies.

You can take a stock engine, throw some shiny bolts on it and dyno it SAE Gross style the way the mags do, and by their metric you get a massive 50+ hp increase over stock. That sells magazines even though it's not actually any faster, and a lot of these crate engines are the same way.

So people see a 260hp goodwrench 350 and think it's going to be faster than a stock L98, when in fact it's far, far worse, and cant be upgraded to hit even L98 numbers without a severe hit in the wallet or in practicality. You cant just brush off the fact that this is an old low compression, dish-piston, crappy-headed, flat tappet block. Those are serious handicaps now and in the future.

Gumby

ummm

http://www.corvettefaq.com/c3/goodwr...20part%201.htm

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Question: How does an engine with WORSE heads, WORSE cam, and a WORSE compression ratio (All the things that make power) perform the same as an L98 which has higher compression, better roller cam, and better cylinder heads?

Answer: A) Magic B) Unequal testing methodologies.

I can claim a Goodwrench 350 makes 350 unicornpower if I wanted to, but that doesnt change the fact that it has terrible heads, terrible compresison, and a terrible flat tappet cam. Over and over we have to give guys in the engine swap forum the bad news that they bought a $1500 piece of garbage when they try to go drag racing with these things.

But dont take my word for it...

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...409-post6.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...561-post8.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...ite-350-a.html
But it doesn't really matter. This engine has all the smogger 70's 350 garbage on/in it because that's what it's from and that's what it's for. I dont know how these dynos were calibrated, or how many accessories these engines were turning, or what kinds of cams or exhaust or intakes these guys were running. But I can guarantee you when you put one in a thirdgen, a stock L98 is going to outrun it. You'll find a lot of people that like them because they dont want to think they wasted their money on them and/or they dont know better.

The goodwrench 350 is a work truck engine.

If you put some Vortec heads on it, and a retrofit roller cam in it, you could make 325-375hp, but that's $1000-$2000 in upgrades. You could go cheap and throw some L98 heads on it and a moderate flat tappet and do okay, but flat tappet cams are just a bad idea in general these days. And that's still in the $500-$1000 range for all the stuff you need to do it. That will pay for the difference to just buy a roller vortec long block to begin with. Plus Im pretty sure they got dished pistons, so you're limited on the upper ends of the cam spectrum and doomed to lose a lot more low end torque that you would otherwise have with a proper flat-top piston 350. Not to mention the engine is made with service grade rotating assembly parts, not performance parts. Just plain cast pistons. Not even hypers or even ARP rod bolts. So you probably wont want to spin it much over 5500, which further limits your cam selection and real world power levels and reliability. If that CHP article is right and it's real world 7.8:1 compression, you're looking at 8.5-9.0:1 compression with 64cc heads on it, which is really low for any performance application.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

THIS is what these engines are good for....to get a car back on the road. I would never get this engine in the pursuit of performance down the road, or you're pretty much going to need to start at the bare block and change everything from there.

Don't care if it's a high HP engine because you want something better than a worn out 150HP LG4 305?? I STILL think it's a good buy for that....

Heck, it's even better than the 195HP 305HO my car originally came with. If they offered these back when I bought my car with the engine locked up ...I just may have got one of these and throw my CCC Qjet on it, exhaust, etc cheaper than I could rebuild mine for myself! And I didn't have ANY warranty when I got done!

Are there better crate engines out there that can be built onto later to get more performance?......yep, you bet....almost any of them...but they'll cost a bit more than this one.

My AFR heads alone weren't much cheaper than this entire engine!

Gumby

stop right there, you didn't even read it, you didn't even look, your just making your same asumptions, read all 10 pages and get back to me, its not a mag for profit.

you can find similar bias opnions like your about any engine.

Lets say how much power can you get out of a all iron 350X, I say 500. http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?40660-She-s-Alive!!!


Just an example, of when people stop listen and do test for themself...... then discover, everyone was wrong.

[ It was brain dead logic, if the turbo 3.8s can run so fast, and the 3.8 is just a 350X block minus 2 cylinders, then why can't the V8 be just as fast?

Course it doesn't always work, like the 4.3 is just a chevy 350 missing two, and the 4.3 is a boat anchor, can't touch a 3.8...... do that math on that if 2 cylinder really helps that] - see bias opnion

Drac0nic

This is far more my point. People have priorities in life other than making 800hp. An engine in a car making 200hp is more fun than an engine with a rod knock or a rod shoved out the side. Not all cars in the world are race cars despite misconceptions here.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Why are you comparing a 10.5:1 compression 350 with this smog slug?

I read this:

This is dishonest. THey're not rating them the same way, and I dont trust the rest of the article if they're going to blatantly ignore the fact that GM uses different testing standards than they do, and then they use THAT metric to argue the merits of this engine compared to every other one. A Stock L98 will make 300hp on their setup rig. You cant compare hp numbers from an engine dyno with no industry standard testing procedures to any stock numbers. Chevy HI Performance did a test on this engine and got 7.8:1 compression. How do these guys get 8.4:1? I've heard both numbers, but the truth is both are way too low for performance applications. As you ddo performance upgrades you may get more power but the power band will be significantly narrowed.

You are, in fact, FAR better off investing in a roller cam 305 longblock if you're not worried about power. It will make just as much power as the goodwrench but get better gas mileage and be more reliable at the same time.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

The truth about a goodwrench 350:

NO,they aren't a high performance engine,nor are they advertised to be.
What they are,are all new,service replacement engines.Which means every piece of it is brand new,not reconditioned parts that have been through lord knows what.
Here's my opinion on this argument,if someone wants a 400+ hp engine,this would definitely be taking the long way around to get there.That said,I remember a jillion years ago,when I was in my late teens,and was just learning to wrench and improve,or at least I thought I was improving.This little engine would have been a great little platform for that,and unless someone out there is getting machine work done a heck of a lot cheaper than I am,it's a case of cheaper to buy than to build.
I've only built up one these for mild performance,and no,it hasn't been on a dyno of any kind.I won't even toss out a hp estimate,as air dynos tend to stir even more debate.
I sold the junk heads that came on the engine.Yes,someone was happy to pay $250 for a brand new pair of smogger heads.I used a set of 601 casting heads cut for 1.94/1.60 valves and very simple pocket porting.Swapped out the cam for an xe274,hung an old weiand stealth intake and a 700dp on it.
Made a great running little engine,for a bit less than $2k.
No thats not free,but at the same time,I've seen people spend a whole lot more for a lot less engine.
End of the day,it's not junk,it just has an intended purpose.It does have potential as a mild performance engine, but only a mild one.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Here's the sad part…they are being hyped as a entry level performance engine. Google the part number and look at the descriptions some of these suppliers are describing it as:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-10067353
http://paceperformance.com/i-5146377...te-engine.html

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

The links you posted are 2 different engines,the summit link is the engine that I think we are referring to.
I don't consider this an entry level performance engine,but then again,where is the line drawn?
It can be,performance is a pretty loose term.

Damon

The GMPP 260HP engine is rated at the flywheel, using SAE testing standards, like all GM engines. However, it is not an "as installed" rating. It's rated that way with just a belt-driven water pump, alternator, headers (with mufflers??), an aftermarket dual plane intake and 4bbl carb.

That EXACT SAME ENGINE has been sold over the years by Goodwrench with power ratings of 195HP, 205HP, 225HP, 250HP and now 260HP.

Which one is 'real'? Depends how much stock power-strangling stuff you throw on it.

I will tell you from personal experience it's noticably stronger than a stock L69 305 HO motor apples-to-apples. Obviously this is mostly because of the 45 extra cubic inches.

If you put a good exhaust and intake on it, a 4bbl, and tune the ignition curve sharp it DOES make 250-260 real, honest-to-goodness horsepower (again, at the flywheel, which means about 190-200 at the rear wheels). Do the same with a stock L31 Vortec motor, however, and it will blow it right into the weeds, no questions asked.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Hey Damon!
I noticed the different HP ratings too. Is there no type of regulation that cracks down on this type of hype to keep these people somewhat honest…aside from the BBB?

It'd be nice to have an honest appraisal of what the HP and TQ ratings really are in a real world test….i.e with what accessories/exhaust were being used at the time of the dyno test. Then everyone can give make the decision if this engine is for them or not.

-And let's not forget, the readings vary from dyno to dyno depending on what brand and type...

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Im dubious that this engine is tested with ANY of those things on it besides headers. Modern SAE Net ratings must include all factory installed accessories and factory exhaust. Since the Goodwrench 350 doesnt have an official factory application, they have a loophole in that regard, so they probably just run an electric water pump and no accessories whatsoever to get that number. They may run a water pump, but the point is that they dont have to. They can do whatever they want. The Vortec 350 that makes 255hp MUST be tested with all those factory components and that's why it only makes "255" hp, even though it's a far more powerful engine. The Vortec 350 is sold as an L31. The Goodwrench 350 is sold as a generic placeholder service replacement engine, so it doesnt have to be tested to those same standards.

It's the only way to explain the power difference between those two. The factory Vortec intake isnt ideal but it cant be that awful, same with exhaust manifolds. These things had to hit emissions and fuel mileage regulations and they are very modern combustion chamber and port designs. They ARE efficient and that means good gas mileage and good power and decent exhaust (for factory). You're not going to lose 50hp through something like that, and that's the only way these two engines having such close power ratings makes any sense. I have no doubt in my mind that if you tested an L31 to the same standards they test these Goodwrench 350's, the L31 is gonig to make 300-325hp.

But that's my theory, the goodwrench 350 lacks a specific application that it must be tested to. The L31 must be tested the same way a Vortec L31 factory engine was tested since it's a factory replacement specific to L31 vehicles.

joshc

iTrader: (1)

Yes, since the goodwrench 350 is marketed as a "universal replacement", it can't be tested for a true net power number. The engine could end up in anything from a work truck to a Corvette. In the Chevy High Performance magazine, the baseline test was done with a stock Gm intake and Qjet, with stock iron manifolds and dual turbo mufflers, spinning a standard belt driven water pump. That produced 239 hp.

Then they threw on a set of headers and an Edelbrock Performer intake, still with a Qjet, and made 265 hp.
So really the numbers are pretty realistic depending on your setup. The alternator and p/s pump are going to hog maybe 8-10 hp. If you have a good free flowing exhaust you probably won's loose anything significant since they used cheapie turbo mufflers for the test.
Here's the article if anyone hasn't read it.
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te..._engine_build/

vdoggie

did you guys want some oil dip with them chips?

anyways... my car is faster than yours.. just saying..

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

It's impossible for this thing to outperform a similarly equipped L98. The L98 is just a far superior design in every single regard. So I take numbers like "239hp" with a huge grain of salt. If they claim it did that with their equipment, then that's fine, but dynos are inconsistent from one to the next, and there's clearly some sort of very significant testing methodology difference between the way they are testing it and the way GM rated the L98 and every other factory engine (which is the real frame of reference when people toss hp numbers out there. They always compare to factory numbers, which are SAE Net). The L98 has better heads, better compression, and a better cam. Same with the L31.

For what it's worth the article shows the ram horn manifolds (by far the best exhaust manifolds around) and the QJet is actually a very good flowing carb. This is probably the setup these are most likely to get on the street (Except thirdgen guys cant fit those exh manifolds, they are far better than the logs we got). Throw headers and a Qjet on an L98 and it will smoke the goodwrench 350. Throw a cam in either and the compression advantage that an L98 long block has will really embarass the goodwrench 350. They also use some very long long tubes on that 350... they are far longer than any third gen long tubes I've seen. They downplay it and call them "intermediate length", but Im having a hard time picturing a bigger set of headers even in something like a full size truck.

The other weird thing is I've read a few articles and some say the Goodwrench has 7.8:1 compression, and some say 8.2, and some say 8.4. I wonder if GM just uses whatever pistons they have laying around or something. I've seen different numbers all over the place on that. 8.4 is getting into something that will at least not totally crap the bed, but it's still way too low for a performance cam.