JimRockford

The smog pump has gone bad on my Camaro and has started making a loud clacking sound. I called Autozone,they said they don’t carry them. I gave them the cardone number (32-431) and they can’t get it. I called Parts Authority,Napa,same deal. Napa has a listing for it but they have none in their warehouse and cant order it in. They said it’s “obsolete”. Finally I found one at Pep Boys,(cardone 32-431) they had to order it in from one of their other stores. I drove down to pick it up and sure enough,it’s defective,it turned halfway then seized up. That was the only one they had and they called around and 20 minutes while I was there and finally told me they can’t get another. Theirs had a lifetime warranty. I asked how they could honor that if they can’t get one in to replace the defective one in the store.
Has anyone else experienced this? Even Rock Auto only offers a rebuild service. I can buy a rebuilt one from online for about $139,but it would take days to come and wouldn’t have a lifetime warranty on it. I’d just delete the smog pump but I’m in California and it has to pass emissions.
I thought I’d ask where you fellow third gen guys are getting yours from? Which remanufactured ones are the best? I thought of buying one from a junk yard but wanted a warranty.

goldandblue

I think alot of us have removed it. It seems like i remember a few threads where folks have removed them and still passed emissions.

JimRockford

I had read a few threads here where members said that same thing,that the smog pump didn’t really do much. The problem here is that even if it passes emissions tests without it,it could still fail the “visual” if the smog tech notices the piece of original equipment missing. The question is if most techs would notice the absent smog pump or not.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

At least the rebuild service is an option.

I'd make a low-ball offer on the defective one, and send it of to be rebuilt.

What DOES Cali do when emissions parts become obsolete?

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

Yes, what does Cali do?

Here is a suggestion: take the guts out of your smog pump so that it is only a shaft rotating on new bearings.
It will still be there and hooked up, but it won't actually be pumping any air.
GM admitted years later that the only purpose of the smog pump was to dilute the exhaust with some fresh air to be able to pass the emissions limits of the time.

JimRockford

I’m sure they’d love to have all these cars off the road. Out here all vehicles 1976 and later still have go through the emissions hassle every other year. 1975 and back are exempt. The model year exemption used to move up each year,but then it was stopped arbitrarily at 1975. They were also doing surprise roadside smog checks where a cop would target older vehicles and have them pull over for visual/tailpipe inspections to make sure the equipment was still in place and the cars would pass.if not you’d get a fine. This was done supposedly to catch techs who were passing vehicles illegally and owners who would remove their equipment afterward. Some cities quit doing it after public outcry claiming illegal aliens were being targeted and having their cars taken away for having no license and insurance.

JimRockford

Thats a good idea. Is there a thread here showing what’s involved in doing that? Would I have to block the air tube coming off the back?

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

No thread that I know of.
I would shove a marble, or something like that, in the rubber hose to block it off.

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

You can have mine for cheap, Rockfish. You still in that trailer next to the hot dog and taco stand in the parking lot at the beach in Malibu? No onions on the dogs, IIRC?

My car has been in a ****-free zone for a couple of years now, outside of CA, in emissions-exempt rural NV, so it's been going through some major transformations, including the removal of the AIR stuff. But I'm kinda lazy, so how quickly do you need it?

I used to box and save parts I'd take off of the car, because you just never know, ya know? But I gave up such concerns several years ago. Stuff just kept piling up, and none of it would ever matter again.

To the people asking what CA does in such cases, CA doesn't care, because it's not their problem, it's YOURS!

We can work out the details through PM, Rockfish, if you're interested, that is.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

That's sort of what I suspected.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Gut it 👍🏻

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Looks to me like the problem is a lack of cores. Not a lack of suppliers. Kinda tough to rebuild something when you don't have anything to rebuild.

I doubt it's possible to blow the right numbers in CA without one. "Gut" sounds very hot-rod-ish, but not likely to succeed.

Might be interesting to see if some later-model one can be adapted.

Funny how these things go... back in the 80s, people were using them for aquarium pumps. You could use some weenie electric motor like for a window AC fan, and a GM smog pump, and aerate a dozen or more aquariums. Maybe that's where they all went?

8t2 z-chev

I wonder if the smog station would let you get away with using an early 4th gen electric smog pump? you would need to be able to do very basic wiring to install the electric smog pump.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Once upon a time I had the pair that came off my 305 laying around my shop and used them to prop doors open.

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

Threw mine in scrap pile a month or so ago and hauled it off. I would have gave it to you.

Aaron R.

Its probably just the bearings. Take it apart and replace them, get another 30 years out of it.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Honestly, unless you live in a state where they do visuals, its not worth it. I just removed mine out-right and got a shorter belt. I think I just played with the part#'s as one part of it was the belt length. I took a measuring tape and ran it around the serpentine system without the pump, then bought the belts closest to that size.

IL removed the emissions for OBD1 and previous cars because it wasn't worth the cost of maintaining the dyno roller system.

As far as its use for emissions, the air pump's purpose was to inject air into the exhaust stream when the engine was cold. Because when cold, the mixture was richer, so the extra air leaned it out and lit the catalyst faster.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

To understand this, you must understand the emissions testing regimen. Some representative sample of production cars (as a mathematician, I would require something between 30 and 50, totally randomly selected and unprepared in any special way, just however they rolled off the production line) to be subjected to testing. Then I'd set a hard limit that NONE could exceed, and an average that as a group they had to meet. Pretty sure that's what was going on here.

The Rules back then (and I think still today) require that the car be started cold, warmed up for some period of time, then driven like grandma in bumper-to-bumper traffic in too high of a gear for about 5 minutes; all this in a giant plastic bag, on a dyno. Pretty sure they also required the car to sit in the bag for some period of time before all this, and then some long period afterwards, to catch evap fuel and whatever else.. Because of the published and documented specifics of the testing regimen, many emissions devices are designed specifically to cope with them.

Keeping in mind of course, that the catalytic converter can't miracle up oxygen (fresh air) to burn CO into CO2, or raw fuel into CO2 and water, out of nothing, without some oxygen being fed into it. Gotta have some oxygen (fresh air) no matter what.

During warm-up, the converter isn't hot enough to actually do anything. Of course, during warm-up, the mixture is also TOTALLY over-rich; in a carb application, the choke is on; in TPI, the cold start injector is pissing fuel into the intake; and so on. None of those things are particularly "precise". Shooting LOTS of oxygen directly into the exhaust right at the engine, as much as can be pumped, no metering or control or anything, would logically be the best solution, to get rid of all that. Then, once everything reached operating temp, the fresh air (oxygen) would be sent to the cat, to be combined with the leftover incompletely burned combustion products. Raw hydrocarbons (fuel & oil), carbon monoxide, and so on. The catalytic converter would then take over and turn those smog-producing hydrocarbons into CO2 and water.

It all makes sense if you look at it from the point of view of a chemist, with The Book Of Rules in his hand.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Because they have more precise control of the fuel mixture at all times.

The computer power that's available is HUNDREDS of times greater than what TPI came with. Think back to what you were surfing the Web and Facebooking with, back in 1983-4 when TPI was being created; and compare it to your smartphone today. Not hard to see how much more you can do than you could back then.

Plus of course it's MUCH easier to apply all this to an engine that was designed for it from the ground up, than to hack it onto a traditional SBC or something. Crank trigger instead of a distributor, very fine resolution measurement of crank & cam position, waste spark ignition, etc. etc. etc. are built into motors from design onwards.

And of course, catalytic converters are better, too.

So, today, it's possible to run the mixture so lean at all times in the testing regimen, that there's some extra oxygen available in the exhaust stream already. No additional needs to be injected.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

With all due respect, and not trying to be a nit picker, but, I feel the need to set something straight here; The cold start injector is only active while the starter is cranking the engine(and only when the engine is cold, of course), and is not otherwise active during warm-up. The instant the engine starts and the key is released from the start position the CSI ceases pissing fuel into the intake. Once the cold engine has started, cold running enrichment is handled by the ECM increasing the injector pulse as per the CTS's indicated engine temp. For reference I'll include this handy diagram pilfered from ATG showing the CSI circuit, which shows it being active during cranking only.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

As a follow on post, for anyone who doesn't know why it's there I'll explain why the purple/white wire (+12V while cranking) connects to the cold start switch.

The cold start switch is actually heated in two ways, for two very different reasons. The switch being in contact with the coolant assures that the cold start injector will only be active while cranking a cold engine. Once the coolant warms and opens the switch, subsequent starts as long as the coolant hasn't cooled too much will not activate the injector due to the electrically open switch. Now, for the second reason and method by which it gets heated, what happens if that cold engine fails to start and the person turning the key is the kind of tool that'll hold that key cranking it till the battery dies ? After 30 or more seconds of cranking with the CSI pissing fuel into the non running engine I'd expect the engine to become hydro locked and bend a rod. Here's where our +12V purple/white wire to the switch comes to the rescue, there is an electric heater built into the switch that will heat up and cause the switch to go open after prolonged cranking of a non starting engine. I've never timed how long it takes the heater to warm the switch to it's opening point but I can't imagine it to take much longer than about 10 or 15 seconds, plenty of time that if the engine was gonna start, it would already have done so.

JimRockford

“Would you knock off that “Rockfish” stuff? The name is RockFORD!” 😆. Not by the Sandcastle right now,had to have Rocky tow the trailer to a different location to get away from another situation Angel created. Haha.

Yeah,you nailed it. They simply don’t care! I kept hoping people would get fed up and things will change and they would move the smog exempt years up,but at this point it doesn’t seem likely. Glad you escaped CA. I’ve lived here for decades and it keeps getting worse. A lot of folks Ive known have left and haven’t looked back. Thanks for offering to help.

JimRockford

Too bad,Thanks though,I appreciate the thought. There are a lot of good folks on this site.

JimRockford

There’s a lot of interesting information in this thread! That makes sense about there being a lack of cores. What’s funny is Pep Boys had told me the core charge was only $2.50! Most people wouldn’t even bother bringing theirs in for that price. They likely don’t care because it’s not a high demand item anymore.
The cardone site shows only 88-92 smog pumps fitting. Anyone know if that’s true? What changed from 1987 to 1988?

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

How to De-Vein or Rebuild Your GM Smog Pump
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/add...-gm-smog-pump/

1968-1989 Chevy/ Smog Air Pump Rebuild Kit Plus Fan (in California)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/39323852683...yABEgJwAfD_BwE

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The pulley. V-belt to wide/ribbed.

Get one of each and set em side by side. If the only difference is the pulley, swap it over.

JimRockford

Thanks for the tip,I’m thinking there’s likely a difference between the 87 and 88-92 version because they are sold without pulleys and the part numbers are different.

When rotated by hand should there be a spot of resistance requiring a decent amount of force by hand to overcome or should the pump rotate smoothly and freely with almost no resistance completely around?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

It rotates mostly smoothly but as the vanes (not "veins") line up, there's some friction between them. There's I think 3 of them, so 3 places as it turns that have some resistance.

They always used to be sold with the pulley, but it's been decades since I bought one. Maybe not anymore.

JimRockford

Thanks “Sofa”,yeah,they are all sold without pulleys now. I finally found one today at another parts store and it rotates smoothly,the other two were definitely defective.

JimRockford

I had forgot to ask,is it recommended to use gasket sealer (I have gasgacinch) on the paper gasket that goes between the smog pump housing and air tube?

calidude

Nice another Californian, I was just up at Paradise Cove in Malibu last week Jimmy.

My smog pump was making some noise and chattering about a month ago but seems to have quieted down now.

Kfactor239

With the EPA cracking down on emissions controlled vehicles lately I became concerned about removing my air pump. Here is what I learned in my research. The catalytic converter used on our cars is what is known as a 2 stage or conventional oxidation catalyst COC which only reduces hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide. They do nothing to remove the nitrous oxides. To remove the hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide they need oxygen. HC (hydrocarbons) + O2 (oxygen) = CO2 and H2O (carbon dioxide and water). They remove carbon monoxide by CO+ O2 + CO2 (carbon monoxide + oxygen = carbon dioxide). So as you can see in both cases the converter needs oxygen or O2. Now the new type of catalytic converter is a 3 stage or three way catalyst. It removes the NO nitric oxide and NO2 nitrogen dioxide as well as removing the HC and CO like the 2 stage does. In the process of removing NO and NO2 it creates its own oxygen O2. The front section of the catalytic converter reduces the oxides of Nitrogen, this reduction strips the Oxygen from the Nitrogen and the two elements travel to the COC element. So that is why new cars don't have air pumps. So If you had a modern fuel injection ECM like Holley HP or Edelbrock Pro Flo and a 3 way catalytic converter from Magnaflow you would be running just a clean as a newer car. That's the Science of the matter. Now even if you had all of your 80's technology emissions equipment in perfect working order you would still be putting NO and NO2 out your tailpipe. As far as the EPA goes Federally removing your air pump is against the law. But here in Oklahoma 47-12-423 Emissions Equipment -disconnection, alternation, modification, or replacement : C. The provisions of this section shall not apply to any disconnection, alteration, modification, or replacement of a nature intended to increase effectiveness of the system in controlling the emission of air pollutants. So here in Oklahoma we can increase the effectiveness of our system. Then the Federal vs State issue and just look at the Marijuana shops.

calidude

Yeah in California you need to have an executive order as a manufacturer to sell a specific model of converter for application to our cars. The CARB or California Air Resource Board is a leftover remnant of the 1970s smog problem and the fat government bureaucracies. Some designed to remove “gross polluters” off the road or even allowed to be brought into the state. I’m sure they overrule the federal standards.

https://ssl.arb.ca.gov/AftermarketPa...ExecutiveOrder

We can’t get oil based paints, chlorinated brake cleaner and tons of other “harmful” products

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

And then you have other stupid states like mine (CT) that follows nearly everything that CA does. Monkey see - monkey do.
Tell me - where does CT's "bad" air go? Out to sea? Many states have already abandoned emissions testing of vehicles.
Not CT. Too much money to be made. Our leaders will follow CA right into the ocean when the fault line breaks.

Reddragon88gta

Not to hi jack this thread but essentially what your saying is if you get a new magnaflow catalytic converter, I am assuming all the new ones are 3 way, then you could easily delete all that AIR stuff and still pass emissions if need be?

I am running a magnaflow cat after my original plugged and am debating on removing AIR.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

MANY modern cars DO have smog pumps. They are now electric.

GD

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

I would say yes, but who am I?
As far as deleting the air stuff, if you think your state would give you a problem, then you could gut or de-vein the pump.
It will still be there, just not pumping any air. Refer to the links at #27 above.

Kfactor239

RedDragon From what I've read you would have a better emissions control system than the factory put on your car. And yes if you have a 3 way cat the air pump is useless. Now there are different state laws you may have to deal with. But the reality of the situation is you would have a better system.

Reddragon88gta

That is kind of what I’m thinking, I have no visual or sniffer inspection for emissions where I am in NY but you never know what the state will do…they are also pushing a new law called the ny sleep act that would try to ban aftermarket exhaust, not likely to pass but still.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Actually they are quite common. You haven't heard of the Toyota recalls related to the air injection valves obviously. All the modern air injection systems use electric pumps.

GD

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

All the one's I have seen are electric from the 90's till current model year. Most manufacturers had to add them back in in the mid-2000's for cold start, etc.

Example:

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...31711-9999.pdf

GD

8t2 z-chev

My 2003 Land Rover has electric smog pump-mounted on the firewall,sounds like a small vacume cleaner under the hood until it switches off after about 1 min. Back about 1996,mounted electric pump from 1993 z28 onto my '82 since I didn't like the buzz the belt driven pump was making at high rpm...and I thought the pump was needed for proper operation...(later removed that setup too) Hooking up the '93z electric pump into my '82 was easy