92camarorv6

ok just to ask is a 500 rwhp tpi set up a dearm or can i do it im thinking of doing a turbo down the rad but just wnt to know if it can be done

scamaro355

i've never saw a tpi make those kind of numbers without a power adder

sailtexas186548

iTrader: (2)

as of right now 400rwhp is as good as it's gonna get and that's gonna take a lot of work. switch intakes to mini-ram/stealth-ram and it will be more attainable

Guest

Not going to happen, without some sort of power adder.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yep, not with a long tube runner setup...short runner setup like miniram or single plane yes

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

http://xtremecarzone.com.au/index.php?showtopic=386

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Why would anyone want a 500HP car that gives up at 4500 RPMs?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Diesel guys seem to love it 500whp at 6500 or 4500 dont matter, it gets up and goes!

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Diesels are found in dumptrucks...

2000 more useable RPMs would matter.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Because torque is what makes a car move, not horsepower. And not everyone in the world wants 6000rpm. Hell, it is a very rare day my car even sees 4500rpms.

big_G

Ahhh, the sound of a sbc at 7,000 rpm's is music to my ears. Before I put the supercharger on, I would hit the rev limiter at least once every time I took her out. Now if I do that it could land me in jail, or the weeds...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Aint that the truth!

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Really? Then explain to me open wheel race cars that spin 20,000 rpms and move those cars well over 200 MPH and have almost zero torque.

No, torque will get you moving, but you will only move so fast. Think tractor. Tons of torque, not a lot of top end. If torque=speed, tractors would be burning 6 sec 1320s.

HP is what makes you move faster.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Can they even get moving without a push start? Or do they whine like a balloon squealing, if they try to get moving in their own?

HP may keep a car moving, but torque GETS it moving.

And the majority of street cars here, spend more time under 2500 than above 5000.

big_G

Most open wheel cars can do the standing 1320 in less than 10 seconds.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Now what if one was to use the First Fuel Injection TPI intake system. Lets say you modify the runners with 2.125" diameter aluminum tubing. That gives a CSA of 3.14"sq. I know that is doable.

Now lets say you can use 2.250" runners. Might have to do a little welding and relocate a bolt hole or two. That gives a CSA of 3.546" sq. Now port the base to a Felpro 1206 gasket or maybe even a Felpro 1207. I think BadSS did that to one. Now open up the plenum entrance to accept a LSX 104mm throttle body.

I think we are talking about a TPI system that can support 500rwhp with some serious airflow and a long tube runner to boot. You can tell where my mind has been lately. Could it be the next project.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

500 Shetland ponies might be doable

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I just dont think it can be done n/a on any sbc. Based on the large cube 400+ inch motors i've seen with various solid rollers and hydraulic rollers dyno anywhere from 400 to just over 500whp, they all do it with some rpm and more rpm than most TPI setups can support. Now if you did what you did and siamesed the whole thing its not much different than a single plane except takes more work to get the runner to flow as much.

Smaller cube 350-385 motors need to turn alot of rpm to make over 400whp, let alone 500.
I think i've seen one 355 LT1 make about 500 but it was a solid roller and turned abit over 7K rpm. Same with a 383. My friends 406 turns mid 6000's and dyno's probably 480whp now, maybe abit higher, and thats with a 1205 port miniram I think, not ported any further. Traps 130 on motor alone.

I'd love to see what a real big inch sbc could do with a modified FIRST like you mention but those motors start to run out of head/cam easily..they just require so much airflow. A 450" sbc can swallow up a set of 235cc heads and be done by 6K rpm. TPI flowing 350cfm would be needed

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hi Orr

Mark Bychowski comes to mind on the Corvette forum. He has a 6.0L LT1 motor that made 476rwhp with AFR 210 heads and T56.

I think the above First intake combination would flow over 350cfm and this "might" be going on a SBC 406 motor. I have to talk to the owner. It is a pre 1975 car and smog is not required.

Yes I would think the AFR 235 head would be a good choice. The car mentioned above already has a set of worked over Dart heads by Dr J. It would make for an interesting project that would not be hard to do at all. Especially when we don't have to worry about smog checks.

Kingbambino22

It can be done. Just not going to be cheap though.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yep, he's one of the highest i've seen dyno'd even with a 230 deg cam. I'd love to see track results to rule out any "friendly" dyno readings. That power should be over 130mph in a light 3200-3300lb car. High 120's if not so light.

I'd like to see what a 60/40 valve 227 type head could do with a high cfm TPI, since the valve spacing is good for more hp than typical 23 deg heads. It would be interesting but the runner diameter would have to be huge. If you are on the right track with tuning for a lower harmonic wave with longer runner, then to use a long tube runner on a big inch motor using heads that can flow 320+ then that runner would be well over 2". Not sure you can fit that. Might as well buy oval 2.5" equivalent tube and run them to the base for full siamesed effect. Then its not TPI....

92camarorv6

ok i just want the se up to look like a tpi setup and yes i wil be doing a single turbo and i could live with 450 for some time but i want 500rwhp no more no leas

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

With a turbo then its easily accomplished...one guy here was making over 730whp on a stock TPI motor

cuisinartvette

A 500 hp sbc wont give up anywhere near 4500.

Id say Id eat a monkeys butt if someone could do a 500rwhp NA TPI, with my luck one of the hacksers here would pull it off. Would be fun to see it happen or at least try.

I cannot find Bychowskis thread wouldnt mind doing a similar build only using a larger solid roller/single plane. Cant remember the size of crank/rod/piston combos.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

With a TPI? That's a lot of power to get past 5000.

92camarorv6

thanks ant one got links

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Here is the link to the Mark Bychowski thread and 476rwhp with a 6.0L LT1. Very impressive. This was also through 3" catalytic converters. There is another link to the progress of his build.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-t...-dry-sump.html

I agree that the runners on the TPI would have to be large. I have already measured the First and a 2.125" runner with an ID of 2.00" is doable. I will have to measure and see if a 2.125" runner with an ID of 2.125" is doable. Maybe with some welding.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

1.5 HP per CI is "very impressive"? Don't get me wrong, it's a great number, but I wouldn't classify "very impressive". Unless you're easily impressed. Im asuming 80 HP drive train loss.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

For a relatively mild cammed street build with mainly out the box/off the shelf parts, 1.5 hp per cube is pretty darn good. Not many will achieve that. Mid higher 400 whp's on any setup is pretty darn good. Cam/heads 346 cube LSx guys are there and not many are over 500whp but they have 15 deg heads. A 470whp heads/cam 346 lsx is very good and usually have mid 230's deg cams and 220cc heads+. A 370" sbc matching those numbers with 23 deg 210cc heads is pretty good in my book.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

it's 366 CI, not 346. Besides, it's not "off the shelf" stuff as you imply. it has all kinds of fancy parts, the oiling system, looks like rocker arm shafts, not standard fare stuff, I'd even go as far as exotic. Sorry, we'll just have to disagree. It's not bad, it's a pretty good number. I just disagree with the description of "very impressive" I think it's kinda average. 1.5 HP/CI is pretty standard these days from a 23* setup. With all those fancy parts, I'd think he'd do better actually.

Plenty of people are getting it. Radical engines are closing in of mid-high 2.X, getting near 3. I think you need a new book.

Additionally, as you know, I take all dyno numbers with a grain of salt. ON a different dyno that number can go up or down as much as 50 HP.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I am aware of what people are doing with 23 deg motors. Radical engines and pump gas street builds are not the same thing. try to get a 2.5hp per cube motor (all motor no power adders) to live on the street then come back and talk to me

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

And the 346 thing was just a comparison build. If you want more apples to apples, lets compare LS2/LQ4 stuff heads cam. I've seen a bunch more hp there, 500-550whp is possible but alot of them are in the 460-500whp, but again, they use larger cams and heads with altered valve angles. Just saying a street build running 1.5 hp per cube is good. Very impressive would be closer to 1.6-1.7 in my opinion.

cuisinartvette

Nothing exotic about that build except it has a nice oiling system.

Jsup look at the typical sbc build with some heads and a 230ish cam, they are hardly getting at the crank what hes getting at the tire.

For what it is, its impressive. Thats one strong **** street motor and should be good for mid 11s (or better) all day long with reliability and good manners.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Very impressive is 2X...IMO

Like I said, don't get me wrong, it's a stout motor, but my problem with with the description of "very impressive"... I agree with you, it's "good".

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

your "typical SBC build does not have a "nice oiling system". What's that worth for HP? If anything? And the electric water pump too. Missed that first go around.

For what it is, it is. Nice, but not knocking my socks off. I'm not ready to dance over it.

FWIW, from another forum:

Budget builds putting down 1.59, on the low side. Just sayin'...average.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Who is building pump gas sbc street builds that do 1.59 on low side on budgets?

EMC motors dont do much over 1.7 and they arent budget and wont last long in a street application either. They encompass the 2500-6500 rpm operating range 90% of street motors operate in. The winner was a 417ci hemi that made 700hp. That was 1.68.

The best pump gas running motor i've seen yet is a 402 sbc that made over 723hp from 6900-8300 rpm. That aint a BUDGET motor at all. Dart block, 4.130" bore custom pistons, custom cam developed on a spin tron to be stable to 9000 rpm, .866" lift, custom ported Dart pro 1's that flow 345 cfm over .800", built by 3V Performance...a great engine shop. That aint cheap but its a 8000 rpm pump gas mill that makes average of 1.8 per cube.

I'd love to see a sbc making 2 and be budget without a power adder Even the top of the line 1000-1100 hp n/a small blocks that cost 30-50K to build using splayed valve 10 deg heads, sheet metal intakes, etc are 2.45-2.70 range. Thats as good as it gets

I'd say a good 406 solid roller build on kinda a budget will do 1.5's, depending on how much work you do yourself and where you shop around. Thats a 600hp mill, thats pretty darn good in a street car.

This is getting way off topic... TPI wont make it without a power adder

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

"Street car" I find that excuse pathetic. What exactly is a street car anyway?

Here's a street car for you, my car:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw-PnNu7hXo

Im running full dress, leather seats, all the options, A/C, etc.

a 230 cam is a street car. Unless you mean grandma's car, which is a differnt forum. If you want to go to the local CVS and pick up some depends, geritol, and denture cream, wtf is a "street car". It's a convenient excuse if you want my opinion.

There you go again, defining a "street application". I reject the definition of something my grandmother would drive. If it runs on pump gas, it's a street car. End of story.

OK, now that is impressive. Not 1.5. If someone attached the word "impressive" to that I can understand. You do realize the last 100 HP is far more expensive than the first.

But let's not fool ourselves, the motor cited is not a "basic NA motor". Electric water pump, oiling system, and shaft rockers? The power is ok for what's in it. It's what I'd expect, nothing special.

Stick to the topic Orr, you're calling that build cited "budget"? Are we now going to re-define "budget" What exactly was "budget" for that build. I bet for the money spent better than 1.5 could be obtained. There are a handful of people running N/A at 2.7 or better.

There you go again with that street car crap. So what? I'll show you this combination and that combination that makes XXX power. What exactly are you trying to prove? Just say it. What are you proving here? BIG DEAL. Do we have to list every combination in existence to prove something? If so, what are we proving?

Bottom line is that build put down nothing more than average power for what's in it. What exactly is your problem with that? Why are you arguing that? Geeze. Three's nothing to argue. It's an OK number for what he has. End of conversation.

I agree.

TPI-Formula350-

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

PM sent

Doom86

It's a nice looking motor and probably runs great but we are assuming way too much here. What is the advertised duration on the cam? It may not be so "mild" once it's all disclosed.

More out of box wizardy? Yes they probably came out of a box, which isn't unique, and yes they were heavily ported and it would be safe to say they are not ANYWHERE close to the advertised volume.

Comparing this to EMC has no value/credit. The rules change every year but I know some years (if not all?) dry sumps were/are illegal. There are was a lengthy list last I saw of rules and this LT4 doesn't follow them.

I've never seen a 500fwhp TPI, let alone at the wheels. LT4's have little in common with TPI.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Mark has a build thread on the motor with all the specifications if one wants to search for it. He lays it all out with no mystery. I am impressed with the build. He did one heck of a job.

"I've never seen a 500fwhp TPI, let alone at the wheels."

I am on a quest to exceed 500fwhp with TPI. My current motor made 395rwhp at 5500rpm with a high stall Yank PT-4000 torque converter. Hopefully I will have an answer in a couple of months. If the current one fails I have a couple of back up plans.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The comp ported versions are a different port version of the street/race ready heads. The 210 comp ports are likely alittle bit bigger in CC volume than the advertised 210cc race readys. From the pics, it looks like they also share a vane in the port around the valve. I know that was on the 235's and i think the comp 227's but didnt know they were used on the 210's. Its suppose to help guide air through to port or something like that. Read up on it, you will see some people have tried that back in the 60-70's or so and it worked well, and then some said it didnt do anything so take it with a grain of salt. So its not "wizardy" because its different design and does improve hp

The 195's in comp ported version actually dont use the same casting as the the 195 race readys. They use the 210 casting...and feature larger valve and 196cc port so they will flow more based on the larger valve and slightly different port shape. Is it worth the extra 600 bucks? I'm not sure...

Out the box, means order from vendor and bolt them on. He ordered them with solid roller springs, and had them swapped with hydraulic roller springs (you could have just ordered them with their 8019 springs) and also milled them for some reason to get compression up but going 65 to 63cc aint much in anything. Waste of money I think. Gasket match ports dont mean much either. So cant really complain about the performance on this mill.

Show me another motor that can match that power with a 230 deg cam thats not an lsx and around same cubes. His engine dyno says 548 at 5900 but that was with LT1 carb manifold. Dyno run peaked at 6500 so theres a good bit of power in between there. I can think of one other motor that was using a very aggresive 230 deg cam and heavily worked over vortec heads with ported carb intake but on a 383 that made 556hp up around 6500.

You are missing the point entirely but doesnt matter...EMC was in reference to hp/cube but thats getting off topic.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

What makes this motor so super special that any similarly cammed, intake, and similarly accessorized motor can't do?

I don't understand your criteria on a 230 cam? What's the difference? Are you saying there aren't any other 6.0Ls that make this kind of power, or more? Maybe I want to do it with a 232 cam, or a cam on a 114 instead or a 112, or maybe even a 110 or 108... Is that somehow less impressive? Maybe I want to do it with 215CC heads, is that less impressive? Maybe I want to do it with a carb, is that less impressive? Would a different intake still be impressive?

I'm not getting what is so special here. Educate me.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

All I'm saying is its a well matched combination. Its making alot of power for the size of the cam and I just havent seen any other varieties of custom cams around similar size at .050 make those numbers on those kind of cubes. I mean various cam grinders and 355-396" LT motors and heads from ported stockers, ported LT4's, ported AFR's, ported Trick flows, etc.And with cams around that duration and LSA..but we just dont know all the specs. They nailed down the valve events well to work with that head and rpm range in that above example.

The cam matches the intake/heads well and that LT4 cranked out power. We should be seeing many other builds doing these kind of numbers but I havent seen any posted. A few here and there make good numbers with custom grinds alittle bigger than that with various cubes/head combos but never anything quite that high. then again the dyno could be high but he backed it up with engine dyno and chassis dyno and the numbers are still good.

Theoretically there isnt anything special here...you have head flow/velocity characteristics matched well to the engine you built and nail down the valve events right it should make the same power or more depending. Just a powerful "mild" mill. Goes to show you a well thought out combination of parts can beat the big cammed headed slapped together build. Pay attention to details and maybe you can find a 450+whp TPI motor someday. Picking catalog parts wont get you there unless its a blower kit or nitrous system.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

OK, so what you are saying is that you haven't seen any other motor with that cam make that much power? What exactly do you attribute this earth shattering feat to?

Well, IMO, most of that problem is people go out and buy cool parts and slap them together based on bad forum information and get 1/2 assed results. I wouldn't compare these violations of good sense and understanding with something the is well thought out.

So why is it do you think you haven't seen anything "quite that high"? Where is the magic that makes this the most powerful 6.0L ever built?

OK, so it's a well matched combo. Good. I completely agree with you on the catalog parts. Like I said above. People throw together expensive crap and get **** poor results. I've seen it a lot of times, but they get to brag to their friends and neighbors about their parts.

Now, that being said, here's a question... in your opinion, if you put the time and thought into matching a different set of parts, do you think that another 6.0 may be capable of making similar power +/- 10% given dyno inconsistencies?

Or do you think that this combination is so super special that no other similar parts can do it?

Artisan

I agree with this statement completely. I also want to add this part. Since TPI was designed to be a street intake not a race intake there is no shame in NOT making 500whp. Considering how much fun they can be even if they aren't LSX killers is OK. Any NA 5.7 liter engines that make 500 whp without a power adder are fairly rare even today. There are so many ways to make 500whp it seems no big deal that the TPI doesn't do it without either bigger cubes or power adder... just sayin

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I've been wondering this myself and cant figure it out. I've seen many builds on many forums as I researched for years before doing my 383. Catalog builds, custom shop builds, etc. 85-90% of them were all within 15-20whp of each other... its amazing. Most were between 390-440whp for the most part with 355-383's w/hydraulic rollers.. The only thing I can say is it came down to the builder spec'ing the heads/cam and the head porters who did the work if any was done and ofcourse the tuner. I mean ported heads + catalog cam within 10hp of a custom grind...just doesnt seem right that combinations you would expect to make big numbers just didnt put out. Then you see cam only LS1's making 417whp+ and think I shoud have swapped!! Gave the sbc a bad name.

To be honest, now that I've seen one example make these numbers I'd expect any combination well planned and brought together to be capable of making similar numbers. IF the heads have a good port and the cam matches, it should put out. Based on the number of builds i've seen, I would have said that 370 setup would only make 420-430whp at best...most likely. Damn thing makes 476?? Wow the rest of those custom builds must have been CRAP to be 50whp short....Makes me sick when I think of my 383. It ran HARD but only made 400 when I was hoping to see 420 or so as I thought thats all these motors could do with a 23 deg head and 6500rpm peaks...

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I think what we see is the guy knows how to spec an engine. This is the difference between a builder and a parts screwing together-er. It was well thought out, and executed.

I think the dyno was loose, it's too far apart form the others you mention. There is no magic pill to get 50 HP more from one to another. Just isn't.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Whats impressive? Us poor people trying to make the most HP out of a TPI on a budget.
Whats a street car? A street car is a car that you can drive across country with the A/C on and get 20-25mph a gallon and can pass smog in all 50 states legally. And can go to the track run from 14.0 to 11.0 et's on the motor. Also using the factory short block maybe except for the pistions but stock rods and crank.

Now keep the topic on topic please and stop being so technical. Some of us don't know what the hell you're talking about. Keep it simple.

Kingbambino22

aftermaket rods and crank I'll be running nitrous