polymer52

I have an 88 TPI 305 but want to swap it out for a 350 and use the old tuned port. What are the differences in the TPI systems?
I know the Eprom, injectors and knock sensors are different. What other differences are there? Throttle body, MAF, runners, fuel regulator, fuel pump, cam etc?

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Nothing
Just swap the 350 underneath your TPI intake , install the 350 only parts you list and hook everything back up
What did the 350 come out of? the cam may or may not be compatible with the computer

polymer52

Haven't looked for the 350 yet. I was originally going to put the 305 in a 63 impala but decided I need all the torque I can get with such a heavy car.
The 305 came from a wrecked 88 Iroc.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

yep, your just using the block from the 350 basically. Think of it like that. Then just swap injectors,knock sensors, and prom. Use all your old accessories too

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Make sure any 350 you are looking at has the same holes in the front of the heads that your 305 does
( to mount the front accessories )

white_ghost

you really should look for a mid 80's and up 350.....you really want a one piece rear main seal....otherwise your repairs will kill you. If you find a decent 350 cam it out with a small to mid cam, throw some roller tip rockers on your "305" heads and put the "305" heads on the 350 block instead. Either way all your tune port is the same, intake, runners, tunnel, all same. However you will need 350 injectors. Once you get it installed, either send your prom to TPI Chips or have Brian just program a piggy back chip to ad to yours.
Plus since no one has said this yet......DONT get a 350 Vortec......you will spend over $1500 just in parts to make the TPI fit.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

How do you figure that?
All you need is the Vortec TPI base @ $450
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-3860

In any case most on here would recommend a Vortec over any other 350 just for the superior heads
and their potential to make power

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Why ?
The change in rear crank seal design changes nothing as far as other internal parts ( cost ) go

polymer52

Good point. Thanks.

afremont

Were there some changes that I missed? Aside from old heads that don't have accessory holes are there some other differences that occurred in GEN1 heads accessory holes?

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

With 305 heads on a 350 you will have to run 93 octane gas and probably lower your timing to avoid knock

polymer52

I don't want to do that. I'm just looking for a little more torque to pull the heavy car.
That's good to know tho. Do the 305 heads have smaller combustion chambers?

afremont

Yeah 305 heads typically are in the 53cc - 58cc, whereas 350 heads are typically 64cc-76cc. This is a generalization, but reasonable in my opinion.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

yes they are smaller, if lower end torque is what your after, you may want a better gear ratio like a 373. What transmission are u going to run in it?

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Varies.
Vette alum heads for example have only 2 holes on pass side ( believe you need 3 on a 3rd Gen ?) so the 3rd hole would have to be drilled and tapped

polymer52

Its a 700R4 from the same car as the 305. I may still use the 305 but at this point I'm just exploring my options. The Impala has a 3:08 rear but I also have a 4:10 from a 6 cyl car but I think that's too low for the auto.

white_ghost

Yeah I wanted to use a buddies 350 Vortec that he just rebuilt. But I called Summit and talked to their tech and by the time he was done I was going to spend $1800. He was talking I would need much more than just a Vortec TPI base. dont remember what all else, because after the price shot up I decided to go another route.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Time summit got a new tech
The only major difference between a Vortec and any Gen1 SBC is the port shape of the heads and the intake bolt pattern requiring the special Vortec TPI base to fit the stock TPI runners.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Remember that is his job to upsell.LOL. All you need are those vortec heads and the matching lower base.

polymer52

So basically I can use any 350, use the TPI setup as is and change the injectors, Fuel pressure regulator, knock sensor and use a heated O2 sensor if I use headers, then tweak the eprom. The throttle bodies are the same.
Will the stock type roller cam and lifters work with an earlier 350 block or did the block change with the roller cam? Are the 305 and 350 heads the same or different?
Sorry about so many questions but I want all the information I can get before I start to collect parts.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

If you use "any 350", make sure you use your heads so your intake will bolt up.fuel pressure regulator should be the same between both engine sizes.You don't need to tweek the eprom if you use the correct 350 prom. You need 350 knock sensor, injectors,prom to get started. 305 and 350 heads are different. You should be using 350 heads on a 350. I wouln't worry too much about the camshaft. Find your new block first and go from there. If you need a chip , i can modify your current 305 one for you.

polymer52

Will the roller cam and lifters fit in an early 350 block or did it change for the roller lifters?

91phoenix

iTrader: (5)

Only the one piece rear seal motors had the provisions for the factory roller cam lifter retainers. Tapped holes in bosses on the top center of the lifter valley.

Rod Behring

IIRC the ESC module is different between the 305 and 350 as well.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

the esc will have letters or a part number on it and will work on several engines with the correct knock sensor. 16126761 (ANRZ) is discontinued. Replaced with HKR for the 4.3l & 5.7L engines, and HKM for the 5.0l engines.
16022621 (BLH), is for 2.8l, 5.0l, and 5.7l engines.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Since this may be helpful in this thread, maybe you can answer some questions about knock sensors/esc. Any difference between flat tappet and roller knock sensors or escs? For example 82-85 vette vs 86-92, assuming same engine size of course. What about older knock sensors and escs with newer ecms, 165/730 for example. I'm looking to run MAF or SD, but with an older block. Not to hijack the thread, it may be relevant to the OP since they mentioned an older style block.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

from 55 up the sbc has had the block drain plug hole !

The 90-92 tpi has 2 different knocks sensors one for the lb9 and L98 and each has it knock filter for the knock sensor frequency on the memcal.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Is there any difference between flat tappet and roller as far as knock sensors go? For example, are 82-85 vette and 86-later knock sensors any different?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

do you mean a comparison between ccc and crossfire ? no difference in sensor between roller and flat tappet in tpi that im aware of.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

I mean specifically flat tappet tpi vs roller tpi. I'd hate to install a knock sensor on my flat tappet tpi, running through 165, and have something go wrong because they're not compatible. What about esc's? Do you know of any difference between flat tappet and roller?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

I listed the the esc numbers I know on post #25 so take a look at the numbers or letters on it.


90-93 Caprice 5.7L Vin 7 GM 10456018 which is ACDelco 213-324 same as the GM 10456288
84-86 vette 5.7L vin 8 GM 10456017 which is ACDelco 213-325 same as the GM 1456287
87-89 camaro/vette 5.7L Vin 8 GM 10456018 which is ACDelco 213-324 same as the GM 10456288

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

I'm just wondering which I'll need to use to be compatible with the 165 ecm, and yet be compatible with the flat-tappet block. As you're well aware, those are two different era's, so I'm just hoping lol.

I noticed the change from 86-87, but that makes me wonder. Obviously, there was a change, but the year suggests it wasn't due to the flat-tappet to roller conversion GM did. Do you think I'd be alright to use a 87-89 5.7L esc then?

Have you heard of anyone using an older style 84-86 esc with a 165?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

I think it will be fine is it labeled 16126761 ?

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

I haven't got one yet, I'm swapping from a 305. Just wondering before I go ahead and pick one up. This thread says otherwise though...

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...090-post2.html

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

your 305 tpi maf doesnt have a esc module ?

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

It does, but I'm swapping two things at once, 305 roller to 350 flat-tappet.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

the esc are use on more than one engine you might just need to buy a new knock sensor gm 10456288 acdelco 213-324.

87SLEEPER

I have recently done exactly what you are describing during my engine swap. I originally had an LB9 with a roller cam and have changed to a 355 with a flat tappet hydraulic. I used an 85 Corvette knock sensor from Autozone and can report no negative results. Been doing data logging and my own tuning and do not seem to be getting any false knocks whatsoever. I did not change the ESC at the time because it would have been expensive and I could always change it later if I needed to. I have no plans of doing that.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

That's the one for 87-89 though, not taking into account the flat-tappet motor.

I need a KS/ESC setup that will read the proper knock from a flat-tappet motor, and is compatible with a 165 ecm. Which brings me full circle, is there any difference in the knock "sound" between flat-tappet vs. roller? That is the key to which KS I buy. I don't want to buy a KS for a roller motor just for it to not read correctly because the motor is flat-tappet.

For simplicity, I have two options:
I could use an 84 vette KS/ESC setup, IF it will work correctly with a 165 ecm.
Or
I could use an 87-89 KS/ESC setup, IF it will work correctly with a flat-tappet motor.

Do either of those combinations work?

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Exactly what I was looking for. But for full confirmation, has it read real knock from it? Naturally, you don't want knock, but I'm just making sure it will pick up knock if there is any. So far it sounds exactly what I'm looking for (not sending false knock to the ecm), but just want to make sure it will send if there is any.

87SLEEPER

Wasn't TPI introduced in 85' for both F and Y-bodies with flat tappets. Then in 87' F-bodies got the roller? F-bodies never had the 350/flat tappet option because the 350 was also new to 87'. Been a little bit since I did reading on this so I could be off by a year.

PhoenixFirebird

iTrader: (2)

Right, 87 for roller. I was off by a year, I was thinking 86 for some reason.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

than get a gm 10456287 acdelco 213-325 Im sure the frequency's are very close if you look at a application listing of the 213-324 it is used in many vehicles "trucks " that are using flat tappet cams.

87SLEEPER

14.5 good for stock lb9. Best I got was 15.5 and mine was running very strong. I added the Hookers and it went to 15.8. Can't wait to get there in the spring and see what my blood sweat and tears ( along with lotsa $$$) is gonna net. I hope the time goes the right direction this round.

87SLEEPER

Its reading knock for sure. I have a higher compression in my setup and am running the ARAP 6E. I am by no means any sort of tuner.......Yet . Everything is fairly new to me. But with the stock BIN I was getting knock. I started pulling timing out and it went away. Hopefully that helps.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

you might want to use the sa from aujm.

87SLEEPER

I will try that. Was gonna start a new thread once I got my wideband fully setup. JP86SS has been guiding me through that process and I think I have it. Just gotta find time to hook the wires up. Maybe you'll stop by my post from time to time once I get going.

Thanks

Rob

87SLEEPER

PM sent

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

I will stay tuned