VILeninDM

Hey guys,

Overtorqued (possibly) ring gear bolt, now what?

So I got the old carrier bearing off using gear splitter and pullers. Worked like a charm. Put the new ring gear on and slowly tightened all the bolts. Then put the carrier in a vice and started torquing the bolts. First pass kinda tight and second pass to 90 ft-lbs (or so I thought). I started doing one bolt and while tightening it, it just seemed awfully tight even for 90 ft-lbs.

So I stopped turning, and put torque wrench itself in a vice to see how much force it would actually take until it clicks. And while changing only direction, not torque setting, it took way more to go left (tighten ring gear bolt), than it is to go right (regular direction). Torque wrench is craftsman, bought at sears less than a year old. Never dropped it and always keep it in original plastic package.

Tomorrow I am going to go there and demand vengance, and then I'll probably end up buying another torque wrench. What about my ring gear? I don't know if I even got to 90ft-lbs, but assuming I went over it, is the gear ruined, or should I just leave the bolt in there and do the other 9 properly?

And if you actually read this far down, here is another one: should I use locktite on ring gear bolts, or any other bolts for that matter when assembling the thing? There was no traces of this stuff on the old bolts and manual/directions did not say anything about it. Just curious

Pro Built Automatics

You should go up in increments. Start with taking a file to the ring gear surface & ring gear flange to make sure there are no high spots. Second, install ring gear & ring gear bolts. Third, tighten bolts to 10 ft lbs., then to 30, 60, & the final of 90. This will keep from distorting the ring gear mounting flange, minimize runout. Unless you are using a spacer, you should not need loctite.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

If there is a possibility that the ring gear bolts were overtorqued, just toss them out and get new ones. I don't think that the ring gear threads were damaged, usually the bolts stretch first.

RBob.

VILeninDM

Pro Built, thanks for the tip, but kinda too late now. I didn't see 10,30,60,90 written anywhere, but that's basically what I did my hand. Over all I did about 3-4 iterations before actually starting to torque to full 90.

So about that bolt. So far it is only one. The other 9, I will buy a new torque wrench and do it again. Should I still throw that one out? Problem is that there are not your every day, hardware store, kinda bolts. I am not even sure if I can get them at the parts store (can always ask though)

ede

buy a set of bolts from ARP or similar supplier. you'll never find the correct bolt, size, shape, or pitch in a hardwear store not even in a fastener supply.

VILeninDM

so you are saying if one bolt is over torqued, I should play it safe and buy another set of 10, rather than putting on the other 9 and hoping everything is fine?

ede

it comes down to pay a little now aginst paying a lot later

rjmcgee

Are you running a ring gear spacer? Reason I ask is I bought one of those and it didn't come with bolts. They were impossible to find because with the spacer they have to be about a quarter inch longer. I finally had to buy another spacer that came with bolts.

Just my opinion but if it was mine, I would reuse the bolt.

VILeninDM

Well, bought a new tq wrench, tried that first bolt and it was somewhere at 80-85. so looks like I got lucky on that one.

nope I don't have a spacer, but i know what you mean. Standard bolts are barely long enough to reach the ring gear and pull it in all the way as it is.

Now I've got few more questions (don't know if it better to start new post, or carry on a discussion) sorry guys don't want to be annoying, but like I said before, doing stuff like this is always nice to have someone who's done it before.

So here we go:
1) got the carrier bearing on using 1/4" steel plate so now inner race is flush with carrier bearing mount. I think before they were pressed in deeper. Should I get something like a pipe and push it in a little more?

I also tried original shims and they weren't even close to getting it in, so that kinda confirms that bearings are sitting wider

2) Played around with shims from the kit. Seems none of them are marked, so I used a dial caliper. For pinion, I had 5 shims: 20, 17, 13, 12,10 (in .001") does this sound right? For carrier I had few 7's, most 10's and 11's, 4 32's and 4 101's (again in .001"). I thought shims were supposed to be in .003" increments, so that was a little confusing.

3) I am doing Randy's (ring and pinion) method which is set it up and check the pattern, then set it up again until the pattern is correct. Do you guys think there is enough marking compound in that little baggie that comes with the kit, or should I make sure I have more before I even start?

I decided it was late to start doing the pattern, so that's where I left it till next week.

ede

yeah use something to press or drive the inner part of the bearing on untill it bottoms out

very good chance the pinion will take the same shim as what it had originally, most likely a .035

no idea how much compound randy gives you, i buy mine in little tubs from richmond . there are other thhings that will work too, prussian blue come to mind

VILeninDM

ed, is that true even if I went from 3.42 gears to 4.11?

ede

yeah the pinion shim shouldn't change, or usually doesn't. you still have to check and set pinion depth but the original shim is a good place to start.

ronterry

Rip the cage & rollers off one of your old carrier bearings, than flip it over. Place it on top of the new bearing, put your metal bar on top, and press away.
sssshhh, you now have a pro tool

BTW: I can't remember if the specs on the ring gear bolts where wet or dry torque values. Theres a bit of difference there.
Also, get into good habits and, always use pattern & increment torqueing on all your bolts.

Ron

RB83L69

The bearings ABSOLUTELY MUST be bottomed all the way against their shoulder. If not, they will move during operation, and then all your tolerances and measurements will go right straight into the toilet, and catastrophic failure is the guaranteed result.

Your shim sizes in the kit sound pretty normal.

The pinion almost always sets up right with a .035" shim. Like ede said, start there, and check the depth; odds are it will be OK but you should always check it either by a depth gauge or the contact pattern.

The carrier shim packs should be 2 ot the .100"s on each side; and then pack the thinner ones in between. Get the backlash set right by packing as much shim in each side as you can to get to the thickness it needs, and once you're happy with it by dial indicator and pattern checking, take it back out, and add about .010" more shim per side; of course, it won't all go in; so put the shims in the saddles, put the bearing races on the carrier, set it into the saddles as far as it will conveniently go, and use a giant C-clamp to compress the carrier races together, and then push/tap it the rest of the way in WITHOUT damaging the shims. The goal is to "preload" the carrier bearings, much like you do the pinion ones.

VILeninDM

thanks, guys, for your help so far. Ron, I did what you said with using the old bearing and that worked beautifully.

spent most of the evening today playing with the pinion depth using randy's method (i.e. contact pattern).

After 5-6 attempts I think I got it, .025-.026 (original one was .029). Problem is that I am not 100% sure I actually got it. It is kinda hard to read the pattern as there is no definite line. Manual said to rotate 3-5 turns past the pinion and then look. I found it easier to look as you are rotating after every turn. That way I could see from where contact pattern was growing. After more turns area where marking compound is rubbed away becomes so large that I can't tell anymore if it is too high or too low.

I have some pictures. Hopefully, it will be possible to tell what's going on from them.

drive side:
http://dxm004.homeip.net/gallery/vie...05&id=IMG_0728
http://dxm004.homeip.net/gallery/vie...05&id=IMG_0729

coast side:
http://dxm004.homeip.net/gallery/vie...05&id=IMG_0731
http://dxm004.homeip.net/gallery/vie...05&id=IMG_0732

What do you guys think?


Also I was flipping though Randy's instructions today and on the last page there is a table with torque specs. It says ring bolts are supposed to be 65 ft-lbs. My Helms manual says 90 (that's what I already did last time). That's kinda confusing there. What should I have gone with?

VILeninDM

anyone?

I am still concerned about torque values on ring gear bolts.

Going to the garage tomorrow night and unless someone tells me those patterns look fine, probably going to try going a little deeper just to see how the pattern would change.

ede

if you have a referance that says 90ft/lbs i'd be happy with that and not worry too much. as for the patterns, tht about the least important thing to me, if it's all within spec, back lash, preload, etc. and the pattern doesn't look way off i'm happy. the contact will never look as good or clear as a drawing in the manuals do.

SS-84

In those pics it looks like you used a LOT of gear marking compound.

the way i have done it in the past was to:
clean the R&P
Paint the marking compound on about 4 teeth of the ring gear.
place a long pry bar underneath the carrier to apply load as a lever
Turn the pinion until the SECOND or THIRD marks appear

This way the pattern is more clear.

From the pics, it is hard to see but it looks OK. Maybe a little shallow. Try it with less compound, only in one area, and see if the pattern becomes more clear.

Good Luck!

ronterry

Totally agree with 'ede', you'll end up chasing that pattern until your blue in the face! Ask me how I know
If I could go back and do it all over again, I would have bought the pinion depth tool.
As far as patterns go, most only concern themselves with centered the contact between the face and flank. Getting it centered from heel to toe is in most cases impossible because of case & pinion bore manufacturing slop.

Also if you haven’t done so already, make sure you have an inch pound torque wrench for the preload.

Should we tell him about crushing the sleeve yet All I'll say is that I went with a solid spacer
'ede' Don't you have a 6 foot cheater bar or something along those lines

BTW: looking at my reference it should be 65FP on the ring gear for a GM 7.5”

Ron

rjmcgee

My book shows 90ft-lb for a 7.625" with a thread locker. Thats what I did with mine 8 months ago and it hasn't fallen apart yet.

VILeninDM

since I don't have pinion depth tool, the pattern is my reference. That's the method described in Randy's R&P manual. And yes, I am only trying to center it flank to face. In that manual they actually said the other way around, ede. When all is said and done, I don't care about spec, I make sure the pattern is correct.

SS, I used my finger for load. The reason so much stuff is yellow is because I didn't fully clean the gears after every trial and that stuff gets everywhere relatively fast, that's why I kept applying compound to the teeth I was actually looking at. Well, now that another person confirmed it is a little too high, I guess I'll do few more runs.

The thing is that near the last page in the manual it says: pattern should not touch the top and must not touch the bottom, so I may have been a little paranoid.

Ron, I already have a in-lbs tq wrench from Randy's and solid spacer . I figure I can keep using my setup bearings to find the right shim size for that and only then use real pinion bearings, right?

And my original car manual (original 88 camaro Helms) said 90FP and didn't metion any thread lockers

SS-84

Brake-Cleen Works well for cleaning the marking compound off of the gear teeth. Just give it a few minutes to dry before turning or else it gets messy.

VILeninDM

I increased pinion shim width from .026 to .028 and now drive side is perfectly centered face to flank and even fairly close heel to toe. Then I looked at the coast side remembered why I decided to go lower the first time.

It looks something like the picture I drew. Toe side is almost centered, but then heel side seems to be going at a much wider arc towards the flank. But at the same time this tail area (side near the heel), is not where contact is at its greatest because there is still more yellow left compared to the center which is towards the toe.

Since drive side is perfect, I am going to assume for now that my pinion depth is set (unless you guys have suggestions, which are always welcome)

Next thing I tried to do is find the shim size for the solid spacer. It came with 5 shims which were close to pinion shim sizes: .011, .012, .013, .016 and .021.

Here's my next problem. If I pick .057 (11+12+13+16), then preload is too low, 5 in-lbs. If I pick next possible size .052 (11+12+13+21), then preload is 20-22 in-lbs.

According to randy's (yukon) manual it should be 12-15 in-lbs (the one I am trying to go by). According to the Helms manual for 88 year, it should be 24-36 in-lbs. What would you guys do? Leave 22 in-lbs?

I did take block of wood and 4lbs sledge and made sure pinion is fully seated from both sides.

SS-84

I think 22 in-lbs will be fine. IIRC I put mine at 21 in-lbs.
During the break in, just pay attention to the heat.
If it gets housing gets hot, park it, let it cool. Repeat. Do that a few times. Do not let it get so hot that touching the housing is uncomfortable.
And change the oil after 500 miles or so.
You should have a damn good unit. Congrats!!!

VILeninDM

Ok, so I finally managed to find some time to get back to this. All the stuff I mentioned above I've done with setup bearings. Today I pressed in the real pinion bearing and tried to assemble everything.

And of course, more issues, otherwise I would be writing anything (yet). I put everything together with .052 shims (I just realized I switched combination sums with the values in my post above), and when I tightened the nut, preload was way to tight, 50 in-lbs!!

So I took it apart and tried next possible combination, back to .057. With that preload is only 10-11 in-lbs, which is just below the spec.

RB, you've used solid spacers before. Does all this sound familiar? It's as if I am missing a few shims or something. I'll go back and double check things again, but unless I come up with a different plan, I am thinking of ordering another spacer tomorrow just so I get more shims. It's only $18, so I don't mind if it helps me set things up right.

rjmcgee

You just gotta keep trying differant combonations. I struggled with this too and finally found the right ones. Good luck

VILeninDM

well, thats the problem, with the shims I have I already tried all combinations. They only gave me those 5.

I even took everything apart just to see if maybe outer bearing races weren't fully in. That would have explained large shim size required, but the races are fine.

While I am here, just want to also ask this in advance. What's the proper way to set carrier bearing preload? Manual shows that shims should be hammered in after carrier is in there. I don't see how something so thin would not bend when you try to do that. What did you guys do here?

RB83L69

You should have a number of shims; seems like it's about 5 or 6 of them; they're all different thicknesses, in increments of about .002 - .003"; like .012, .015, .018, .021, .025"; or something like that. Maybe even a couple of the .012" ones. You should be able to take out the thickest one and replace it with 2 of the thinnest ones. .055" total shim sounds about normal, that's about where it should end up.

Put the spacer on the pinion first, then the shims on top of that, then the bearing; If you put the shims in under the spacer, they will sit on the little ledge on the pinion and deform, and give you all sorts of weird readings. Tighten the nut to at least 100 ft-lbs each time to check the torque. I prefer to have mine a little on the tight side rather than loose, especially with new bearings.

SS-84

Correct me if I am wrong, please...but the pinion shims should stay the same in relation to what you used for mock up. If not your pattern is going to vary.
Put the same shims back in, and install the pinion. Adjust the torque value by how tight you tighten the LOCK nut. (you can always use lock tight on the threads)
Also, oil the bearingsand races, if the bearings are dry the torque will be outrageous.

VILeninDM

Since you asked ... I am talking about solid spacer shims, not pinion shims. Pinion shims I have not changed and hopefully those are all set. The problem is that here's all the solid spacer shims they gave me: .011, .012, .013 (it could also be .012), .016 and .021.

I dipped all bearings in oil before installing any of them.

With this combination I go either too much ~50 in-lbs w/ .052 or too little ~9-10 (not 11) in-lbs w/ .057. It appears if I could make them .055 or .054 I would be all set but out of those 5 I have, that's impossible.

RB, thanks for the warning. I actually figured that out myself that the ledge on the pinion is not as straight as the top of the spacer, so I was already doing it as you suggested.

Looks like I'll be ordering more shims today, dang it.

rjmcgee

Should be .010, .012, .012, .016, and .021

.010
.012
.012
.021

equals .055

Try it

VILeninDM

rj, you could very well be right on those numbers (although no matter how many time I measured the small one, it was never less than .011), but the fact remains the same. There are 5 shims and I have to use 4 of them. If I leave out the biggest one (.021), it is too tight. If I leave out the next big one (.016) it is too loose. The right size is right somewhere between those 2 values. And if I leave out any of the other ones, then it will be even more loose.

I ordered another spacer so maybe with more shims I'll be able to do something. If not, I guess my only option will be to sand down few thousandth of the spacer itself and try again

VILeninDM

well, having a second spacer with another set of 5 shims solved all my problems. The only thing was that after I did the final pinion nut tightening preload was too much so I had to take things apart and add .003" and do it again. I am not sure why it changed. I cleaned all surfaces and shims before putting them in, but somehow they got a little more compressed when I tighted the nut with all my might (and a help from a 3ft breaker bar and a jack handle)

Final preload was back at 21-22 in-lbs.

Put the carrier in on the second attempt. First time I knocked the shims out and accidently flipped them. That time there was no backlash, so I had to take the carrier out. That was fun. After 40 minutes of swearing, I built a contraption of 3 pieces of 2x4, a rope and a breaker bar to extract it.

Finally everything is in. Installed Moser axles. the only weird part there was that c-clips were not sitting as snug as they were on the old axles. When I took them off I had to use pliers, but on moser axles they were just hanging there. I asked around on other boards and they said it was fine. You guys have comments on this?

Otherwise, I am actually done with this thing. . I want to thank everyone in this thread for helping me get through this. This board really is an invaluable resource (I will not go into what I was going through the last week while it was down, I think I have a problem ). Now I just hope everything will be fine with the unit sitting on the floor at least 2 years, waiting for the rest of the car to get done.

When I have some time, I want to do a write up of my experience with all the pictures I took so maybe it'll help out a little the next guy who wants to do this. Unless you guys have objections, I will give full credit to you and this board for helping me.

Next step: learn to weld and do LCA relocation brackets. I played with my MIG for the first time last thursday: amazingly cool stuff.


Once again, thanks everyone