Doward

It's your vote!!

a) Grand National MAF for us '86-'89 MAF guys! 70% more airflow potential than stock. Approx cost - $125ish, no core.

Includes: GN MAF, and reprogrammed chip (I can also do minor changes on the individual chips, at the same time - shut off the EGR or smog, rescale for different injectors, change when the fan comes on, etc). If all goes correctly, this will be a plug and go operation. I read my 3.1/MTC-5 camshaft (NO OTHER CHANGES) at 132g/s of airflow, WOT @ 5700 rpm, IIRC. Might have been 142... anyway, the point is, is that the GN MAF reads 255 g/s whereas ours tops out at 150g/s.

or....

b) '730/'749 ECU upgrade. MAF eliminated. Comes with a SU129 2 bar MAP sensor + ecu + calpack + conversion harness. Approx cost - $220ish.

I'm picking up either the GN MAF Friday, or the '749. I've got the SU129 in front of me.

I want to know which project you guys want to see tackled, first.

P.S> This will NOT turn into a MAF vs MAP debate. BOTH are running 11's and better. We're running 16s/17s. This is a necessary upgrade, for anyone going cam'd/headers, and is still MAF based. I bounce all OVER the MAF limit, and I can't do it any longer - so I'm going to go either GN MAF (plug and play, with some chip retuning) or MAP (more work, more expensive, possibly better outcome). I want to know what YOU all think, and what YOU all want!

kretos

i like the idea of more airflow, plus maf is easier to accept mods.

you've got my 2 cents, and if you do it i will 100% get one

Naft

its funny because whenever i dont see you posting anything about what youre working on that is exactly the thought that goes through my mind: " What's the mad scientist coming up with next?"

i dont have very much knowledge of what im choosing between, so im not gonna vote. ill take whichever i can get. i do know that im planning on doing my own ecm programming a little later down the line, so whichever one makes that as simple as possble for me is the one it want.

Doward

*grins*

You never know with me. But the stock MAF is definetely killing my part throttle tuning capabilities.

Let's see how the votes go, by Friday. That'll make the decision for me.

I WILL be doing both - it's a matter of which comes first, though. Keep in mind, if I get the stock ECU working with the GN MAF, then we suddenly have access to the GN MAF translator, and the newer LT1 MAF.

*pats LT1 MAF next to him*

TJ986

sounds good looks like when i'm through with college and ready to start modding my bird there will be plenty of options

Xophertony

what is different for the gn mass air flow sensor. oh and anything that can get me a tuned chip for 125 gets my vote. i would want my chip to remove the charcol canister purge and air pump code.

87blueracr

doward, you never cease to amaze me. i was just sitting here yesterday trying to find a maf that is larger and will work better with our cars. i guess that you beat me to the punch on that one. i picked the 65MM throttle body up the other day from wells performance. when i compared that mustang throttlebody to our stock ones, it is like 2 times the size.. i can't wait to get the intake and get that wired in! anyway back on subject,

yea let me know the final price and i'm in possibly on both if you can explain what that second thing is and how it will help us. the maf is a deffinate yea all the way though.

Doward

I won't call it a 'tuned' chip by ANY means... but hey, if you need the AIR pump disabled, I can spend the 10 extra seconds to do that

The GN MAF is the same size as our stock one - it is only calibrated for the higher airflow.

The great thing of it is, is that once the GN MAF/chip is in place, it is a DIRECT SWAP to the GN MAF-T + 3" LT1 MAF!

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

B body maf's are 3.25" OD and F body / Y body are 3.5" od.

87blueracr

eithor way(grinning) the more air the better they breathe. more air means more power!

Doward

This upgrade won't necessarily let more air in, as it will allow control of more airflow, over stock

*ahem* 3.4 + cam + headers, or any sort of forced induction

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

It wasnt meant to be contradictory to him, just putting the info out there so 1. people know there is a difference when looking to buy. and 2. it should help when fabricating air intake duct work and such.

87blueracr

sorry for the mis understanding, i ment to say better air control and for doward more breathing easier. thank you both for clearifying.

LinuxGuy

iTrader: (1)

One for the GN MAF...

yupitsdadsbird

yeah we had my buddies mustang pulling SO much air it slowed it down.....now he can't find a just to get the headers, heads, cams, and injectors...........next to a piston and crank change everything else it basicly done

91greenbird

iTrader: (4)

how many different projects have u been working on and completely, or still working on, or still planning for?

V8 Slayer

Electric water pumps,right Doward

AM91Camaro_RS

i've been planning that one! again, haven't had time to make it happen though. need to get my hands on the pump i want for this setup and it'll happen pretty quickly then.

Doward

Plenums, turbos, V8 transmission usage swaps, FWD head swap, MAF upgrade, ECM upgrade to MAP.

That's all I can think of offhand, that hasn't already been done before

yupitsdadsbird

real quick like but I THINK the fwd blocks even have the same motor mont holes as the rwd......I was a lil drunk the night I was checkin out a 3.4 on the floor

Doward

Nope, they do not have the same mounting boss on the Driver's side.

87blueracr

nope, i asked gm about that, and they said they are in different locations and that the only blocks that have bosses for both or would work in eithor vehicle is the bowtie block. i do know that they are the only blocks that you can put the fwd heads on with the propper intake manifold. with the distributor in the right spot. personally i don't see why the mid and upper intakes wouldn't swap out or flip 180. they look pretty assymetric to me.

86BLUEBIRD

looking like and being can be farther off than u might think. it would be nice if they were interchangeable, but the slightest, unnoticeable difference can screw everything up.

87blueracr

true, but if they are within a C**thair of the other side, i might have a feasible solution. what about the bases? are they the same with the difference being the distributor location? see where i am going with this one?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Oh goodness, now does it really take all that long to offer the clutch disc for the trans swap ? Its the same otherwise.

87blueracr

all it needs to be is a 9 1/2 inch disk with what like 16 splines?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Some early V6's are 9 11/16, the later are all 9 1/8" dia, the hub on a V8 is 1 1/8 26 spline.

87blueracr

sounds like all that is needed is a custom throwout bearring. and clutch plate. i don't think that eithor would be hard to find or do with the right equipment.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Dont know why in the world you want to change the plate, nor the bearing.

Just need a custom clutch disc.

87blueracr

aren't the tranny input shafts different dia's? yea i was saying that you would need a new clutch disk


sorry doward i know it is a little off your subject, just talking about some of your project ideas. maybe giving you some ideas on the matter that you might not have thought about!

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Yes you need a new disc, 1 1/8" dia 26 spline as opposed to the V6's 1" 14 spline input shaft. The bearing is the same for both.
The plate is going to be specific to the V6 since it has to bolt to the smaller flywheel.

The real question is will the earlier V6 flywheels that came with the 9 11/16 clutch bolt to the newer engines, or is it the same flywheel and whats different just the disc, or disc and plate, etc....

AM91Camaro_RS

i'm not real sure which flywheels are the "earlier" ones but didn't these engines change from externally balanced to internal somewhere along the lines? that could be when they changed the flywheel!?!?

87blueracr

yea they did alan, 87 was the transition year. i was told to check the harmonic balancer. one is welded one isn't. i don't remember which is which though!

Z28***** i figured that because of the different input shafts, that the throwout bearring would be different.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

You are beginning to show your knowledge of cars more and more...

The bearing doesnt slip onto the input shaft itself... it rides on the sleeve around it, which are the same O.D.

RTFC

Had this kid (87Blueracer) come in here first off and simply asked for advice and start learning rather than trying to portray himself as a top engine building machinist for 5 years now and has an 8 sec mustang, he would not be catching all the crap he is.

AND, He's too stubborn to admit it- he is downright annoying around here- almost as much as I can be.

RTFC

John, I still don't know what I am going to do with this motor. My head hurts every time I try to find info on these computer systems and I am not certain which route to take. I am glad I have nothing but time on my side since the current 2.8 that is in it only has 40K on it.

Life would be so damn simple if I could just build a motor and not worry about an ECM and smog laws- hell, I can do that part and make it run like a bat outa hell, just not legally.

RTFC

And for those of you asking about an electric waterpump setup, I have already fitted a timing cover for this and have the system completely routed other than just now acquiring the remote pump and mounting it.

Whats stopping me here is the possibility of me going to a supercharger with this car and if I welds in mounting brackets for the remote pump I need to be certain I am not going to hinder where the SC routes if I do so go that route with the 3.5

Doward

I'd suggest mounting a Supercharger either where the A/C is, or if you want to keep that, where the Smog Pump was.

There is NO way that ANYONE could detect the GN MAF upgrade, so even you, Dean, could get away with it

2_point8_boy

No, but the blower and the custom plennum kind of stick out...lol

Xophertony

ok,i guess i get to be the noob. what is the point of an electric water pump? is it just to have that little bit of restraint off of your engine (the restraint the watterpump puts on the belt that the engine must turn) ?

RTFC

X,
Its more than alittle restaint when you are trying to spin up the rpms. The motor will rev faster. Every little bit counts. I am even going to a Fluidampr Aluminum race series 6 3/8" damper and am going to custom machine fit a pulley onto it for the V6 offset serpetine.

An electric waterpump on stock V8 makes claims of up to 30HP increase (we all know about claims though) I actuallity its about 8 hp you are gain BACK that the engine is robbed of turning the mechanical waterpump. We have more impellors believe it or not than a V8 waterpump so it may even be more close to 10HP.

Now a waterpump is a waterpump no matter basically if its on a 4 cylinder or a V12. If it takes away 8 HP to turn it 6k rpms on a V8, it will take away 8hp to turn it on a V6 (given that the pulleys are identical diameters)

It is a noticiable difference on a V8 that has say 250 FWhp before and 258 FW hp after tthe electric waterpump install. What do you expect from 135HP to 143HP gain? It will be alot more noticible. Between the two senerios, the same 8 hp increase is a 3.2% increase on the V8 and a 6% increase on the V6. The smaller the motor, the more noticible the gain.

87blueracr

same idea with the dry sump oil pump. the less stuff the engine has to turn, the better.
now on to Z28 and rftc, you mean to tell me that the freggin sleeve is the same size on all engines made by chevy? yea that is what i thought, so quit running your mouths and trying to start ****. by the way "Dean" there is no claims, i am a machinist, i did build engines, and oh yea by the way wanna talk about being childish and annoying, well, every time you point that finger, you got 3 others going back at you. pretty much the only ones that are really annoying around here is you and your wanna talk trash pals
sorry doward, i had to get that out

2_point8_boy

SHUT UP! If you want this crap to end, be the man and zip your lip!

87blueracr

ya know i aint gonna disrespect doward by doing this on his thread.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Dean, on your drawing. You sure their is enough belt contact on the crank?

I thought you were going to put an idler pully where the wp use to be.

Doward

*sigh*

87blueracr, um... a dry sump oil pump is driven by a belt. The engine still turns it. As a matter of fact, there are usually 2 pumps in a dry sump system....

I'll point you here - Why do some vehicles have a dry sump oiling system? - to learn more on it.

The power gained from a dry sump, is not due to but rather due to the fact there is sooo much less windage around the crank. This is why there are crank scrapers, and why they help - ESPECIALLY in a high rpm situation.

87blueracr

doward i understand that! i was simply stating that it too puts a power robbing drag on the engine as well like the water pump. not all dry sump systems are belt driven. i have seen a few that used electric motors to drive a pump. i don't want to do the dry sump oil pump idea, but the waterpump, heck yea. i know what i was talking about, it just didn't quite come out the way i wanted it to. i guess i gots to pay more attention while i am typing, huh.

kretos

it never ceases to amaze me, you say one thing then totally go the other way on some things, from what i've read you know ****, and while dean can be a pain in the *** sometimes, atleast he knows whats he talking about and will admit it if he wrong.

posi=limited slip

stop trying to sound like you know it all , no one here buys it and its pissing off more then 1 of us

yupitsdadsbird

telll ya what.....need to change the name of this board from v6 to arguement or bunch a jerks. I mean some of us are too mean about s**t. Even I have. I mean weather people admit they're wrong or not. I will admit when I am wrong and am willing to learn if I don't know.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

Ok, I was about to ask...even GN guys don't keep the GN MAF. I really like the idea of the LT1 MAF.