My 2 cents
07-03-2014, 05:37 PM
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Car: Sport Coupe
Engine: 3.4 MPFI
Transmission: WC T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42
My 2 cents
So I posted a few weeks ago that I recently performed the 3.4 swap.
"Just get a 350" was the most common uttered phrase from most of my friends, but, I just didn't want to. Why? well, my trans is good, I didn't want to have to spend $$ for a trans for a v8, and flat out, I don't really want one, since I have a bit of a temper, I could forsee many tires burning and high gas bills, tickets, etc etc.
The reason I am typing this, is to add a few more reminders to KED85 and Dave's 3.4 swap articles that were fantastically helpful to me. Also, I am pretty novice at this, so these are things that a dummy like me missed, and learned from.
When we were pulling the engine, we originally tried to get it without the trans attached. That didn't go so well for us. So, running out of sunlight, and in the heat of it all, everything came out. Dummy me forgot about small things like the shift linkage still being attached (it was only a month old!) and of course, in a battle of motor vs shift link, the shift link snapped, in the process, flinging the engine/trans around a bit on the hoist. Could've been a bit of a safety issue. But, we survived. Also, in the process, even though I had read and knew better, I didn't plug the tailshaft on the trans, and lost a lot of fluid. How much? more on that later...
I got really lucky and found a 3.4 on my local craigslist for 150$, and jumped on it. After getting it home, I stripped it down to the bone to inspect/regasket it. Why? because the previous owner had never run it, and it was "running when pulled" from a junkyard. Good thing I did, as the head gasket was starting to pop around cylinder #5 and it would have lasted 3 seconds without replacement. Never trust the exterior, even though the motor was clean, it could've been a nightmare. Put in new timing chain, oil pump, water pump, distributor and a CL16-232-4 Comp cam and new lifters and pushrods. The main reason for the lifters/rods was that the rat that lives in my garage knocked over my nicely organized boxes of lifters and pushrods, and God only could tell which was which. So I figgured, hell, why not get a different cam with a flatter torque response while I'm in there? It seems to make some difference, but as has been pointed out before, this isn't truly a "performance swap".
Back to the story, the new motor did not come with exhaust manifolds, but if you research it, the head casts are identical, GM just changed the number in the 90's. So I kept my old heads. I know some of you are gasping, but here is my defense; the 2.8 had spun pretty much every single bearing, and one was 2 seconds from totally falling out from the piston rod, ie, the bottom of the engine was bad, not the top. Also, the manifolds on the 2.8 have been on there since 1986, and I really didn't want to push my luck in getting those rusty old dogs off of 'em without destroying anything. I am on a verrrry tight budget, and machine shop work is totally out of the question. Only drawback was, somewhere along the line, some jeeniouss, used about 26 pounds of rtv on the heads. It took me 6 hours, PER HEAD to scrape and clean and scrape and clean that crap off of there. By the end, all of the sealing surfaces were CLEAN! After that, I started assembling the engine.
Here is where I had to do some thinking. The lower intake manifold for the 2.8 had a HUGE hole where one of the water sensors plugs in that some jeeeniouss decided to fill with (more) RTV. I would not stand for such BS in my new setup, so I used the 3.4 lower. "But what about the cold start injector?" you ask...well, I used the 2.8 fuel rail, since I didn't want to re-rout the fuel lines, and plugged the hole where the cold start injector plugs in with a bolt from Ace hardware, trimmed down, and loctited (is that a word?) in place. I also swapped fuel regulators, because as KED85's article reminds us, it's NEWER. Then, I simply left the wire for the 7th injector kicking around. Problem solved, I'm in Florida, what the f#$& do I care about cold?
Moving right along. Timing chain, oil pump, water pump, head bolts, etc, went smoothly, no real drama, just make sure you get that timing mark right, torque everything to spec and CHECK IT after you've had a lunch break, you don't wanna go back in there once the motor is off of the stand. Before the BIG DAY of putting the engine/trans assembly back in, I spent another hour with a scraper, cleaning the sludge off of the trans. Just because a clean workspace is a happy one.
THE BIG DAY!
So, of course we all know to make sure our spark plug wires are hooked up right and that the dist is at TDC? Well, I thought I did. Apparently, if you have #3 and #5 crossed AND your dizzy is 180 out, damn summabich won't run. And if you keep trying to start it over and over like that, your starter will probably start smoking. And I don't mean Marlboro's. Eventually, we fixed the dizzy and wires and rested the starter, and BOOM, she ran. Not well, but she ran. Couldn't get her to run much without adding some throttle, but it was turning and running. The next day, while waiting to go to band practice, I hit the TPS with the meter and it was reading .02 volts when closed. I tweaked it to the correct .5 volts and voila! IT LIVES!. I spent the full 20 minutes with my hand on the TB keeping above idle and varying the rpm's to break in the cam. Changed oil, changed my chain-smoking starter and took her out.
OR so I thought.
I started it up, dropped in reverse, gassed it, and went a whopping 3 feet. Engine sounded great, no misfires, just exhaust leaks, but no movement. I knew I had lost some trans fluid, so I checked it. It read add QT. So I did. Still nothing. Added another, stll said add QT. Still nothing. She wouldn't go a foot without revving it like I was trying to drag race. I called my mechanic pal that has helped me all along. he says, "Dude, I think you lost a LOT more fluid than you think. Go buy a big jug of fluid and start adding it until it says full, not add QT".
So I did that. After adding another GALLON of fluid, I could feel the trans coming back to life in between adding, shifting between all gears, checking, repeat process, etc, till it was full. Then, it was game ON!
So I thought.
3 days after initial startup, I start getting oil smoke from the engine bay. Now, this had happened before, but I had long thought it to be the oil pressure sensor not seating right on the oil filter mount. But, it wasn't just that, Apparently, when putting it all together, the dizzy was less than 1/8 of an inch loose, and oil was spurting from under it, getting everywhere, and making a mess. So I fixed that. The next day, IT IS STILL F*&$ING smoking. And I'm losing oil. Like 3 quarts in 5 days. After tracing it while on the stand, I realize that all along, it wasn't the pressure sensor that was leaking, it was the stupid little o-ring that goes around the bolt that holds the filter mount in place. So after some more swearing, cigarettes and beer, I replaced that, and ALAS! NO OIL LEAKS! NO SMOKE! As most of you know, the filter housing is right above the y-pipe, and it was dripping onto it, providing a nice little fire hazard.
And here are some side notes take from it what you wish, make fun of me if you want.
On day one, when I was getting the right voltage for the TPS, I took the IAC out of its housing, and turned the key to ACC to see if the pintle was moving. I have read several places to do this to make sure the little motor works. Well, it did. It pushed that little pintle all the way off and onto the ground. So, being very thrilled about that, I tried to re-assemble it. I drove it for a day with it stalling at every stoplight, unless I dropped in in neutral. So my quick fix? Remember, Gfunkill is broke, he ain't buyin' no new IAC. I took the pintle out of the housing, put the housing back on the TB and good lord, she idles. I know it runs the risk of running it too lean, but currently I am getting 21mpg with mixed driving, and there are no weird knocks or anything coming from the engine. So "f" it I said, goodbye IAC. Does it throw a code? Dunno, cos the PO decided to unplug the "check engine" light, and I haven't had a chance to get into the dash.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the 3.4 swap. I HIGHLY, STRONGLY, and generally recommend reading both of the articles by KED85 and Dave's 3.4 swap article, novice or not, as they helped me a TON on this project. Now, I have my beast back, on the road, and it doesn't struggle to keep up with traffic.
-G
"Just get a 350" was the most common uttered phrase from most of my friends, but, I just didn't want to. Why? well, my trans is good, I didn't want to have to spend $$ for a trans for a v8, and flat out, I don't really want one, since I have a bit of a temper, I could forsee many tires burning and high gas bills, tickets, etc etc.
The reason I am typing this, is to add a few more reminders to KED85 and Dave's 3.4 swap articles that were fantastically helpful to me. Also, I am pretty novice at this, so these are things that a dummy like me missed, and learned from.
When we were pulling the engine, we originally tried to get it without the trans attached. That didn't go so well for us. So, running out of sunlight, and in the heat of it all, everything came out. Dummy me forgot about small things like the shift linkage still being attached (it was only a month old!) and of course, in a battle of motor vs shift link, the shift link snapped, in the process, flinging the engine/trans around a bit on the hoist. Could've been a bit of a safety issue. But, we survived. Also, in the process, even though I had read and knew better, I didn't plug the tailshaft on the trans, and lost a lot of fluid. How much? more on that later...
I got really lucky and found a 3.4 on my local craigslist for 150$, and jumped on it. After getting it home, I stripped it down to the bone to inspect/regasket it. Why? because the previous owner had never run it, and it was "running when pulled" from a junkyard. Good thing I did, as the head gasket was starting to pop around cylinder #5 and it would have lasted 3 seconds without replacement. Never trust the exterior, even though the motor was clean, it could've been a nightmare. Put in new timing chain, oil pump, water pump, distributor and a CL16-232-4 Comp cam and new lifters and pushrods. The main reason for the lifters/rods was that the rat that lives in my garage knocked over my nicely organized boxes of lifters and pushrods, and God only could tell which was which. So I figgured, hell, why not get a different cam with a flatter torque response while I'm in there? It seems to make some difference, but as has been pointed out before, this isn't truly a "performance swap".
Back to the story, the new motor did not come with exhaust manifolds, but if you research it, the head casts are identical, GM just changed the number in the 90's. So I kept my old heads. I know some of you are gasping, but here is my defense; the 2.8 had spun pretty much every single bearing, and one was 2 seconds from totally falling out from the piston rod, ie, the bottom of the engine was bad, not the top. Also, the manifolds on the 2.8 have been on there since 1986, and I really didn't want to push my luck in getting those rusty old dogs off of 'em without destroying anything. I am on a verrrry tight budget, and machine shop work is totally out of the question. Only drawback was, somewhere along the line, some jeeniouss, used about 26 pounds of rtv on the heads. It took me 6 hours, PER HEAD to scrape and clean and scrape and clean that crap off of there. By the end, all of the sealing surfaces were CLEAN! After that, I started assembling the engine.
Here is where I had to do some thinking. The lower intake manifold for the 2.8 had a HUGE hole where one of the water sensors plugs in that some jeeeniouss decided to fill with (more) RTV. I would not stand for such BS in my new setup, so I used the 3.4 lower. "But what about the cold start injector?" you ask...well, I used the 2.8 fuel rail, since I didn't want to re-rout the fuel lines, and plugged the hole where the cold start injector plugs in with a bolt from Ace hardware, trimmed down, and loctited (is that a word?) in place. I also swapped fuel regulators, because as KED85's article reminds us, it's NEWER. Then, I simply left the wire for the 7th injector kicking around. Problem solved, I'm in Florida, what the f#$& do I care about cold?
Moving right along. Timing chain, oil pump, water pump, head bolts, etc, went smoothly, no real drama, just make sure you get that timing mark right, torque everything to spec and CHECK IT after you've had a lunch break, you don't wanna go back in there once the motor is off of the stand. Before the BIG DAY of putting the engine/trans assembly back in, I spent another hour with a scraper, cleaning the sludge off of the trans. Just because a clean workspace is a happy one.
THE BIG DAY!
So, of course we all know to make sure our spark plug wires are hooked up right and that the dist is at TDC? Well, I thought I did. Apparently, if you have #3 and #5 crossed AND your dizzy is 180 out, damn summabich won't run. And if you keep trying to start it over and over like that, your starter will probably start smoking. And I don't mean Marlboro's. Eventually, we fixed the dizzy and wires and rested the starter, and BOOM, she ran. Not well, but she ran. Couldn't get her to run much without adding some throttle, but it was turning and running. The next day, while waiting to go to band practice, I hit the TPS with the meter and it was reading .02 volts when closed. I tweaked it to the correct .5 volts and voila! IT LIVES!. I spent the full 20 minutes with my hand on the TB keeping above idle and varying the rpm's to break in the cam. Changed oil, changed my chain-smoking starter and took her out.
OR so I thought.
I started it up, dropped in reverse, gassed it, and went a whopping 3 feet. Engine sounded great, no misfires, just exhaust leaks, but no movement. I knew I had lost some trans fluid, so I checked it. It read add QT. So I did. Still nothing. Added another, stll said add QT. Still nothing. She wouldn't go a foot without revving it like I was trying to drag race. I called my mechanic pal that has helped me all along. he says, "Dude, I think you lost a LOT more fluid than you think. Go buy a big jug of fluid and start adding it until it says full, not add QT".
So I did that. After adding another GALLON of fluid, I could feel the trans coming back to life in between adding, shifting between all gears, checking, repeat process, etc, till it was full. Then, it was game ON!
So I thought.
3 days after initial startup, I start getting oil smoke from the engine bay. Now, this had happened before, but I had long thought it to be the oil pressure sensor not seating right on the oil filter mount. But, it wasn't just that, Apparently, when putting it all together, the dizzy was less than 1/8 of an inch loose, and oil was spurting from under it, getting everywhere, and making a mess. So I fixed that. The next day, IT IS STILL F*&$ING smoking. And I'm losing oil. Like 3 quarts in 5 days. After tracing it while on the stand, I realize that all along, it wasn't the pressure sensor that was leaking, it was the stupid little o-ring that goes around the bolt that holds the filter mount in place. So after some more swearing, cigarettes and beer, I replaced that, and ALAS! NO OIL LEAKS! NO SMOKE! As most of you know, the filter housing is right above the y-pipe, and it was dripping onto it, providing a nice little fire hazard.
And here are some side notes take from it what you wish, make fun of me if you want.
On day one, when I was getting the right voltage for the TPS, I took the IAC out of its housing, and turned the key to ACC to see if the pintle was moving. I have read several places to do this to make sure the little motor works. Well, it did. It pushed that little pintle all the way off and onto the ground. So, being very thrilled about that, I tried to re-assemble it. I drove it for a day with it stalling at every stoplight, unless I dropped in in neutral. So my quick fix? Remember, Gfunkill is broke, he ain't buyin' no new IAC. I took the pintle out of the housing, put the housing back on the TB and good lord, she idles. I know it runs the risk of running it too lean, but currently I am getting 21mpg with mixed driving, and there are no weird knocks or anything coming from the engine. So "f" it I said, goodbye IAC. Does it throw a code? Dunno, cos the PO decided to unplug the "check engine" light, and I haven't had a chance to get into the dash.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the 3.4 swap. I HIGHLY, STRONGLY, and generally recommend reading both of the articles by KED85 and Dave's 3.4 swap article, novice or not, as they helped me a TON on this project. Now, I have my beast back, on the road, and it doesn't struggle to keep up with traffic.
-G
07-05-2014, 11:45 AM
#2
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Re: My 2 cents
Well done. I've had my 3.4 ready to rebuild for two years now but too many other things get in the way. Glad to hear it's worth it in the end!
07-05-2014, 01:23 PM
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Car: 86-FireBird
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Re: My 2 cents
"So I posted a few weeks ago that I recently performed the 3.4 swap. "Just get a 350" was the most common uttered phrase from most of my friends"
Use to be a time around here, if you were just asking about some speakers, that is the type of answers you would get, don't buy speakers get a V8 ...
50/50 city highway Im 21-23MPG that with a T5, [ did use to get 25-28 many years ago on ultra 94 when it was still under $2 a gallon]
Use to be a time around here, if you were just asking about some speakers, that is the type of answers you would get, don't buy speakers get a V8 ...
50/50 city highway Im 21-23MPG that with a T5, [ did use to get 25-28 many years ago on ultra 94 when it was still under $2 a gallon]
07-05-2014, 02:13 PM
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Car: Sport Coupe
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Re: My 2 cents
Gumby, I remember 88 cents a gallon in my late teens in the late 90's. If only..
And as far as speakers go...I have an OK setup, but a buddy of mine informed me that he has a couple of amps and speaker boxes kicking around. So that's next. Not gonna go crazy, just like to hear the kick drums along with the guitars when I listen to Nasum.
And base91, I know how it feels to get too much in the way. And on top of that, I don't have a garage to pull the car into, so I was at the mercy of FL weather. And you all know how that can be..
And as far as speakers go...I have an OK setup, but a buddy of mine informed me that he has a couple of amps and speaker boxes kicking around. So that's next. Not gonna go crazy, just like to hear the kick drums along with the guitars when I listen to Nasum.
And base91, I know how it feels to get too much in the way. And on top of that, I don't have a garage to pull the car into, so I was at the mercy of FL weather. And you all know how that can be..
07-05-2014, 05:43 PM
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Re: My 2 cents
@six shooter-Haha! Well, the speakers in the car came with it, some kind of pioneers for trucks in boxes, they do the job! And I got some crappy 6x9's for 16$ a couple years ago to get some mids in there. And my buddy only wants like 20$ for one of the amps and whichever speaker box fits.
@ducky-So you're carbed? I kept MPFI cos it was already there, so it was pretty much plug n play.
@ducky-So you're carbed? I kept MPFI cos it was already there, so it was pretty much plug n play.
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07-05-2014, 09:15 PM
#8
Re: My 2 cents
@six shooter-Haha! Well, the speakers in the car came with it, some kind of pioneers for trucks in boxes, they do the job! And I got some crappy 6x9's for 16$ a couple years ago to get some mids in there. And my buddy only wants like 20$ for one of the amps and whichever speaker box fits.
@ducky-So you're carbed? I kept MPFI cos it was already there, so it was pretty much plug n play.
@ducky-So you're carbed? I kept MPFI cos it was already there, so it was pretty much plug n play.
07-12-2014, 01:36 PM
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Car: 1992 Firebird
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Re: My 2 cents
Gfunkill, just read your engine swap tale of tribulation. Laughed all the way through it because it reminded me of all my adventures in bird repair and maintenance. Thanks for sharing and reminding me to never, ever try to swap an engine. But, I'm sure you'll have more fun with the bigger V6 than a V8. Now, if you decide to install a turbo........................ Just kidding. But, I would like to see a pic of your engine bay.
07-12-2014, 03:59 PM
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Re: My 2 cents
there is one pic in my album with me in front of the engine. i dont have any pics of the new motor in the car other than that.
07-13-2014, 04:46 AM
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Re: My 2 cents
08-17-2014, 11:51 AM
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Re: My 2 cents
Here's a vid I took this morning of the car on startup. Mostly took it for my Dad since he lives 8 hours away and hasn't seen it in person.
08-18-2014, 12:07 PM
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Re: My 2 cents
Sweet. I look at mine still on the stand but moving house in a while so not so much on the engine.
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