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Wheels and TiresNeed help with wheels or tires? Got fitment issues? Have questions about tire performance and handling? Ask all of those questions here!
Interested in autocross?
Want to beat new 5th or 6th gen Camaros in your ****** Mobile?
200TW Autocross tires are the way to go.
Here's me experience with running the Yokahama 295/30R18 A052 tires on 18x11 wheels
Quick review:
pros: stupid amount of dry and wet gripWarms up basically after 1 lapPuts easily 1 second on older tires like the BFG Rivals.
Cons: very expensive tireWears out fast due to soft compound
needs -2.5 or more negative camber to work rightSteering feel isn't very crispGets greasy and falls off after 140F carcass temp.
not a good road course tire.
Dry grip:
theses tires are very very sticky
After 1 lap the tires are basically ready to go 100%
my 92 with a giant 10in spoiler and a stupid amount of suspension work, can sustain 1.29-1.31Gs in corners.
I can't comment on putting power down, as my 92 is a low power car for the time being(LS swap coming soon). I can't even do a burnout with these tires because they stick so much.
the A052 don't have the crisp steering feeling like the now end of life RE71R or current RT660 tires. However the steering input is acceptable.
the overall grip is fantastic.
nothing like beating a AutoX prepped 6th gen SS 1le and having the owner look at your Turd gen in contempt!
Tire temps and pressures:
I run these tires at 35psi front 36 psi rear.
If I had more camber,(like -2.75 or -3.0) I could get away with less pressure in the front.
Even better if you are running a Cambered axle.
Unfortunately I don't have one.
The tires get maximum grip at around 120F-130F
And quickly drop off.
One dual drivers event had my front tires at 157F and were a solid 1 second slower than previous runs. I didn't use my water sprayer because I was testing to see how much heat they could handle.
Although I know people that use these tires for road course racing, they are not ideal for that situation.
Wet grip:
Nearly unbeatable wet gripThe soft compound allows you to hold an excess of 1.0G even in the rain.
While other 200TW tires like BFG Rival tires have garbage grip in the wet.
The A052 are a good choice for anyone in a region that gets a lot of rain.
However, the A052 do not like standing water for obvious reasons. The A052 will tend to hopp or vibrate when driven through standing water (1/2-1in) They do alright considering, but if there's standing water; use a summer tire like the 4S.
Cold grip:
Just like the wet grip, cold grip is fantastic
They warm up fast even on super cold days.
I ran an event that was 36F, and run 3 and 4 had enough heat to get the tires to stick.
Even though Yokohama recommends not using the tire below 45° f, more than half the paddock was on the same Tire.
Wear:bad, all badThe wear is fastThe tire compound is extremely soft with very soft side walls.
that means wear is VERY prominent.
The tires also need negative -2.5 or more camberThat means the rear tires will like to eat the outer shoulders. Being able to rotate tires is a MUST here
If you overheat the tire and go above 150F, the wear gets WAY worse. It's an Autocross tire, not a road race tire.
My tires after 88 runs, 44 rains runs, 44 dry runs.
5/32 tread wear even across the tire.
Sizing:
As with most race tires the sizing on the sidewall is not super accurate.
These 295/30R18s are 12.25in wide and are wider than the 315/30R18 Toyo 888R tires for example.
they are very very wide for a 295 and fit well on a 18x11 wheel.
they don't like being pinched on small wheels. The same 295 on another guy's 18x10 wheel was wearing 3x faster than mine.
The REAL width is measured with a soft tape measure. Measure from the side wall wear arrows and that gets you the labled width of 295mm.
Tread depth is 6/32 new. Yokahama claims it's 7/32 but that's not accurate.
anyways, a quick run down for those inclined for turns.
After 88 runs, 44 runs being rain laps. Worn down 2/32 so far Overheated A052 Dual drivers and 18 runs at 157F temp with a Pyrometer. Going to get the tires mounted 295/30R18
These cars will NOT beat 4th-6th gen cars! Can you out drive a crappy guy behind the wheel of said newer car YES.
Go to a big dog autox event like the one umi holds every year and you will be blown away by how many seconds the fast thirdgens give up to average 4th gens and even more to 5-6gens.
These cars will NOT beat 4th-6th gen cars! Can you out drive a crappy guy behind the wheel of said newer car YES.
Go to a big dog autox event like the one umi holds every year and you will be blown away by how many seconds the fast thirdgens give up to average 4th gens and even more to 5-6gens.
You misunderstood.
A properly set up 3rd gen reduces the average delta between a 3rd and 6th gen.
if an average CAM-C 6th SS 1le is 100%
and a 3rd gen is 90%
Making my car faster puts me at 95%
But we all know the driver is the most important aspect. I can overcome a 5% delta with skill.
Anyways, this was a thread about tires.
Not me making 6th gen owners mad when I put a full second on them with 170 Horsepower lol.
and before you say something like"Your groups are just slow compared to exex"
There are 2 national Champions my my local events.
There no shortage is crazy fast drivers.
These cars will NOT beat 4th-6th gen cars! Can you out drive a crappy guy behind the wheel of said newer car YES.
Go to a big dog autox event like the one umi holds every year and you will be blown away by how many seconds the fast thirdgens give up to average 4th gens and even more to 5-6gens.
you are sadly mistaken if you think a 3rd gen cant beat a 4th/6th gen i have been doing it for yrs from stock to what i have now..its 50% driver 50% car hp or newer car doesnt mean **** simply as that.put a set a good tires on a car an watch what it does
Any chance you want to post a link to the timing results from this event to show everyone evidence to back up the claims that you outrun everyone? If it actually happened at a SCCA event the results will be posted online on their website.
Now come on did I say I out run anyone in this thread? Just sharing what I have witnessed in person year after year. You all seem to think GM made the newer cars handle worse then our cars come on guys. Mod for mod thirdgens are not in the same league.
MCLOVIN1181 - Never mind. I found the link. https://nwr-scca.org/solo-latest-event/ Shows you coming in 50th out of 64 cars while running in Novice class in the March event and 5.5 seconds off the lead in your class at that event. 50th out of 82 in the April event in CAM-T and 3 seconds behind the newer Mustang. Oddly I don't see any 5th or 6th gens even competing in those events to see how well you did compared to those cars.
Honestly, with the way you post about how great a driver you are, how fast your car is, how much better engineered your setup is, I expected a much better performance and to find you running a class other than Novice.
Last edited by Beater79TA; 05-18-2021 at 11:58 AM.
I would love to see a built thidgen gen show up and crush the umi event but I dont remember any even getting remotely close to winning thier class let alone hanging with the newer car classes.
Tom you know better you guys show up at umi in Clearfeild every year how many top 3 you got in your class? Zero sounds right
I just know we can hang with them but can't really beat the newer cars unless the driver isn't up to it. We're going to find out the fun way how well we can hang this year since the 92 is classed into the modern muscle group for Optima (90 is the cutover year) and we get classed in the same group as 5th and 6th gens. We'll beat some but most will beat us. It's just hard to compete with a home built car against factory cars with millions in R&D behind the design
Brian Johns managed to make the top 16 vintage cars at KOTM last year but that's the closest a thirdgen has come so far.
Now come on did I say I out run anyone in this thread? Just sharing what I have witnessed in person year after year. You all seem to think GM made the newer cars handle worse then our cars come on guys. Mod for mod thirdgens are not in the same league.
My comments are aimed at the OP. He talks this way on here and Facebook constantly about beating all the newer cars. Timing results don't back up his claims very well now that I've found where the times are posted.
My comments are aimed at the OP. He talks this way on here and Facebook constantly about beating all the newer cars. Timing results don't back up his claims very well now that I've found where the times are posted.
You aren't going to out run anything with a TBI and a 700R.
Well this thread for our of hand quickly.
it was about Autocross tires.
I haven't run in the novice class since 2019, you are looking at the other white 3rd gen in my area.
Furthermore, I've been #2 in the CAM-T class in the last event I went to.
Oh, here's a pic of the UMI weight jack that failed on me.
I had to re-weld it because UMI skimped on the welds.
Such a poor design with a high price tag.
The fat guy with the red firebird loves seeing that photo.
Maybe he'll ban me from 3rd gen. Org as well lol
Oh, here's a pic of the UMI weight jack that failed on me.
I had to re-weld it because UMI skimped on the welds.
Such a poor design with a high price tag.
The fat guy with the red firebird loves seeing that photo.
Maybe he'll ban me from 3rd gen. Org as well lol
This seems to be on consensus with UMI weight jacks, fine for the street but any real abuse they have issues.
Well this thread for our of hand quickly.
it was about Autocross tires.
I haven't run in the novice class since 2019, you are looking at the other white 3rd gen in my area.
Furthermore, I've been #2 in the CAM-T class in the last event I went to.
Interesting. Those March results show class NOVAM for a 1992 Camaro under your actual name. Are there two people with that name driving 92 Camaro's in the NWR SCCA region? And, yes, you were 2nd in CAM-T at that event. By 5.5 seconds in your class. Same with the April results. It was a 4 car class. Same driver name. Description shows a 1992 Camaro. 2nd place by 3.2 seconds. If these aren't the correct event results, what is the link to the other timing records? Even the car number in the results list matches the car number in the photo in the first post of this thread. Are you sure these aren't your racing results?
Last edited by Beater79TA; 05-18-2021 at 05:17 PM.
Oh, here's a pic of the UMI weight jack that failed on me.
I had to re-weld it because UMI skimped on the welds.
Such a poor design with a high price tag.
The fat guy with the red firebird loves seeing that photo.
Maybe he'll ban me from 3rd gen. Org as well lol
Actually today was the first time I saw those specific photos. By banning me from your personal page on Facebook, you also prevented me from seeing anything you post on any Facebook page.
The maturity level of going directly to name calling vs rational discussion is probably why multiple sites and Facebook pages have banned you.
FYI: The set on my car doesn't have those issues. Not even after over 5000 abusive track miles on road courses and national level autocross events and not the local novice class. We did destroy a set of Ground Control units though.
Oh, here's a pic of the UMI weight jack that failed on me.
I had to re-weld it because UMI skimped on the welds.
Such a poor design with a high price tag.
The fat guy with the red firebird loves seeing that photo.
Maybe he'll ban me from 3rd gen. Org as well lol
Since these threads live forever on the ol' interwebs.
With regards to the famous "no welds" photo (and these are now fully welded by the way since the OP is concerned for everyone's safety and certainly isn't bashing UMI) the force is applied to 2065D. The 2401I is for spring centering. It really has nothing to do with supporting the car even though there is some small amount of side loading I'd imagine. The reality is, four stitch welds would most likely suffice. But no plans to test that theory since they are now fully welded...
These cars will NOT beat 4th-6th gen cars! Can you out drive a crappy guy behind the wheel of said newer car YES.
Go to a big dog autox event like the one umi holds every year and you will be blown away by how many seconds the fast thirdgens give up to average 4th gens and even more to 5-6gens.
anyone able to confirm I can run C6 wheels with 265/35/18 front and 305/30/19 rears on a stock ride height and stock rear end 91’ Z28 if i roll the rear whee well? Of course with 2” spacers. Thanks!
anyone able to confirm I can run C6 wheels with 265/35/18 front and 305/30/19 rears on a stock ride height and stock rear end 91’ Z28 if i roll the rear whee well? Of course with 2” spacers. Thanks!
I run 275/35/18 up front and 305/30/19 in the rear on a 4th gen axle with a 1" spacer. You'll have to roll the fender unless you hate your tires.
Sometimes I think it would be fun to race but unfortunately I'm just not a big enough dick to be good at it.
You'd probably have a good time. Most people running autocross and road course days are friendly and have an honest desire to help the newer members get faster. That group throws awesome parking lot parties in the evening at multi day events.
Some people like to push buttons, trash vendors, and make claims that don't look right to others. And then try to deflect and hide when called on it.
Stephen is part of that second group. He made some claims both on this board and Facebook that I and others have questioned. Instead of providing evidence and proof, he has resorted to name calling and blocking to dodge answering. Despite what he might think, I really do want to know what caused parts to fail. Especially when it's the same part we've been abusing for 5 or more years without issue so I can potentially change up my inspection process to check for different issues. I'd also like to see proof that he really can beat the 5th and 6th gens he claims to beat knowing that his car is a 305 TBI with a 700R4.
You'd probably have a good time. Most people running autocross and road course days are friendly and have an honest desire to help the newer members get faster. That group throws awesome parking lot parties in the evening at multi day events.
Some people like to push buttons, trash vendors, and make claims that don't look right to others. And then try to deflect and hide when called on it.
Stephen is part of that second group. He made some claims both on this board and Facebook that I and others have questioned. Instead of providing evidence and proof, he has resorted to name calling and blocking to dodge answering. Despite what he might think, I really do want to know what caused parts to fail. Especially when it's the same part we've been abusing for 5 or more years without issue so I can potentially change up my inspection process to check for different issues. I'd also like to see proof that he really can beat the 5th and 6th gens he claims to beat knowing that his car is a 305 TBI with a 700R4.
I'd like to take mine out for a HDPE event, I don't much care for driving in circles in a parking lot. My issue is my wheels require spacers to fit and I don't really want to put that kind of abuse on spacers.
I'd like to take mine out for a HDPE event, I don't much care for driving in circles in a parking lot. My issue is my wheels require spacers to fit and I don't really want to put that kind of abuse on spacers.
People run spacers up to 1 inch and adapters even thicker all the time doing both HPDE and Autox. Check all the lug nuts for proper torque and run it. Once upon a time we ran 4th gen wheels for track wheels with 2 inch adapters. Lots of people still run that kind of setup with 4th gen and vette wheels.
People run spacers up to 1 inch and adapters even thicker all the time doing both HPDE and Autox. Check all the lug nuts for proper torque and run it. Once upon a time we ran 4th gen wheels for track wheels with 2 inch adapters. Lots of people still run that kind of setup with 4th gen and vette wheels.
That's what I've got. 2" up front and a 1" in the rear. I blue locktite them on every time I take them off. I def need to replace the front brakes though. My car is a little bit away from being ready to really give it ago.
That's what I've got. 2" up front and a 1" in the rear. I blue locktite them on every time I take them off. I def need to replace the front brakes though. My car is a little bit away from being ready to really give it ago.
Insufficient brakes is a good reason not to do a HPDE event. When you do the brakes upgrade the fluid to hi temp racing fluid before going on a track day. You will cook regular DOT3 fluid and lose the brakes even with good hardware. If you have questions, feel free to IM me and I'll let you know what we've learned over a decade of doing this.
Insufficient brakes is a good reason not to do a HPDE event. When you do the brakes upgrade the fluid to hi temp racing fluid before going on a track day. You will cook regular DOT3 fluid and lose the brakes even with good hardware. If you have questions, feel free to IM me and I'll let you know what we've learned over a decade of doing this.
Will do! I've kept a couple cans of ATE SuperBlue over the years to use, but these days it seems that Motul 600 or 660 is the stuff to use.
Well this thread for our of hand quickly.
it was about Autocross tires.
I haven't run in the novice class since 2019, you are looking at the other white 3rd gen in my area.
Furthermore, I've been #2 in the CAM-T class in the last event I went to.
@McLovin1181 No response to the doppleganger car with your name and number? Or will you be hiding on this forum now too? I posted the screenshots from the SCCA timing website for you just in case. I didn't find any evidence of you beating much in the way of newer cars either. Even after going over a couple of the other Seattle / Bremerton area SCCA timing systems.
Interested in autocross?
Want to beat new 5th or 6th gen Camaros in your ****** Mobile?
200TW Autocross tires are the way to go.
Here's me experience with running the Yokahama 295/30R18 A052 tires on 18x11 wheels
@McLovin1181 So when and where were these events where you beat the 5th and 6th gens? It wasn't NW Region SCCA based on their timing records. You don't actually run much with SCCA.
@McLovin1181 3 days now with notifications into your inbox about responses to this thread and no reply. The data available on your driving doesn't back up your claims in the first post of this thread. Still waiting for the additional data to be provided. You're supposedly an engineer. You should understand the importance of data to back up statements and product evaluations.
Is this your daily routine? Been doing this on other sites too? McLovin obviously left the conversation. There's no reason to be tagging him over and over and over again with notifications in his inbox.
Is this your daily routine? Been doing this on other sites too? McLovin obviously left the conversation. There's no reason to be tagging him over and over and over again with notifications in his inbox.
True. He obviously doesn't have any timesheets or data to back up his position. I'd do this on other sites but he blocks everyone on FB that dares to question any of his statements preventing this conversation from happening there. He's done the same on other sites where he has that option. I had some hope that he would be able to have a honest discussion here but I should have known better when he went directly to name calling.
A update after the A052 tires ran their full life and finally wore out.
(if you still think BFG Rivals are “”fast”” look at the 20212 National solo results lol A052 as far as the eye can see)
After 241 runs and 21 events, the side wall chunk’d & corded
241 total runs
188 dry runs
53 wet/semi wet runs
21 events
pretty happy with the life.
with more camber (-3.0 vs my -2.2) and a tad less front weight bias, I could have gotten another 30 runs out of them
the tires lost a little grip after about 50 runs, but held on to that grip even after 200+ runs.
the low tread didn't affect grip. Although wet traction was worse in standing water with the lower 3/32 or 2/32 tread due to the rain groves getting smaller and smaller.
tire temps were more sensitive at lower tread levels as well.
If I didn't start the lap with the temps at 110-115F, they greased off before the finish.
This 2021 season was fun, I improved a lot, getting closer and closer to the National level competitors I run with.
This thread seemed to rustle some overweight GenX jimmies earlier this year.
After seeing those guys' LS fest AutoX results, I kind of chucked a bit.
some like Tom being 10 second behind the event leader lol.
Some pics for your viewing pleasure. (keep in mind most if not all above me are national level guys that ranked in the top 5 at nationals. a few took 2nd, 4th, and 6th in the nation)
anyways, I hope this encourages to slap a set of A052 tires and take their 3rd gen Autocrossing
The guys I run with are faster than CAM drivers.
I don't bother looking at CAM times that are so far below me.
Bill Zerr for example was 1 second faster than the FASTEST CAM-T driver at the 2021 solo Nationals.
Bill was also faster than the fastest CAM-C car as well.With the fastest CAM-C car running a near identical time.
that's in a class with rules(STU), while CAM is basically a freeforall mod wise.
Jeremy on those pics also trades blows with bill in PAX.
The 2nd place winner at Nationals CAM-T was Fred, and he still gets beaten by Bill at local events.
The guys I have to run against are unbelievably fast.
The guys I run with are faster than CAM drivers.
I don't bother looking at CAM times that are so far below me.
Bill Zerr for example was 1 second faster than the FASTEST CAM-T driver at the 2021 solo Nationals.
Bill was also faster than the fastest CAM-C car as well.With the fastest CAM-C car running a near identical time.
that's in a class with rules(STU), while CAM is basically a freeforall mod wise.
Jeremy on those pics also trades blows with bill in PAX.
The 2nd place winner at Nationals CAM-T was Fred, and he still gets beaten by Bill at local events.
The guys I have to run against are unbelievably fast.
So despite your initial bragging about these tires allwoing you to outrun people, you never actually outran anyone? Probably faster for me to just look it up on the SCCA timing sites instead of asking you for results. So you might want to go back to the first post and edit it to be more truthful about who you actually did manage to outrun (almost no one running in your class). Tires help. But the official records still show your initial claim is almost all fabricated based on the actual timing results.
FYI: many of us run open events where the classing is simply by manufacturing date of the vehicle and the only modification rules are tire treadwear and minimum weight. Literally anything else goes. You run against local SCCA, some of us run against people named Unser (who have Indy car titles and things like that), some NASCAR drivers, and a couple of guys standing on podiums around the country running in the TransAm series. But even in our local SCCA we get to run against people like Brian Peters (goal is to jacket in every class and well on his way to doing it) and a few others with a dozen or more national jackets. You want real competition, travel outside your area to an open event like a USCA weekend and see how humble you leave at the end.
I propose the DSE-Z Iroc putting many cars to shame. Quality engineering with modern components and good driving.
Thirdgens have long been able to achieve over 1G lateral loads, and with proper suspension geometry re-engineering many members here have basically eliminated the body roll issues on transition.
Where thirdgens fall behind is not in handling, but in chassis dynamics and feedback especially. They are fairly numb by modern suspension standards. This translates to a reduction in driver confidence and the ability to keep the car the limit of traction.
Thats not to say you can't push past it, learn the car and excel.
Its a 40+ year old chassis running a suspension design that is 60+ years old. Its got some problems that can be overcome.
I propose the DSE-Z Iroc putting many cars to shame. Quality engineering with modern components and good driving.
Thirdgens have long been able to achieve over 1G lateral loads, and with proper suspension geometry re-engineering many members here have basically eliminated the body roll issues on transition.
Where thirdgens fall behind is not in handling, but in chassis dynamics and feedback especially. They are fairly numb by modern suspension standards. This translates to a reduction in driver confidence and the ability to keep the car the limit of traction.
Thats not to say you can't push past it, learn the car and excel.
Its a 40+ year old chassis running a suspension design that is 60+ years old. Its got some problems that can be overcome.
It isn't that the platform can't do it. It can with a solid build and driver. We do it regularly at USCA and other open class events. So do several other cars out there including the DSE-Z and the Speedtech car owned by Jason Smith. The OP in this thread doesn't despite his claims in the original post. I looked up his times to see if his claims were legit. And found that he actually wasn't beating any of the cars he listed as being easily beaten just by using these tires..
I didn't say it can't. What I meant was that the driving dynamics, the chassis feedback is numb in comparison to modern cars. Most of the front end feedback is due to the steering gear, even good ones aren't as good as modern R&P. Doesn't mean they don't perform their function and steer the car. Its just they transmit less back through the wheel.
The back-end is subject to the fact that its a live axel with much more unsprung mass than a IRS car. All the same on smooth pavement the live axle can grip as good as anything else. Its just that the suspension design doesn't allow for the same level of feedback to the driver about what the tires are doing. Instead, the panhard bar setup responds with a jacking effect on body roll.
I'm separating actual grip from the way the chassis talks to the driver. The end result is confidence to a new/less experienced driver.
I didn't say it can't. What I meant was that the driving dynamics, the chassis feedback is numb in comparison to modern cars. Most of the front end feedback is due to the steering gear, even good ones aren't as good as modern R&P. Doesn't mean they don't perform their function and steer the car. Its just they transmit less back through the wheel.
The back-end is subject to the fact that its a live axel with much more unsprung mass than a IRS car. All the same on smooth pavement the live axle can grip as good as anything else. Its just that the suspension design doesn't allow for the same level of feedback to the driver about what the tires are doing. Instead, the panhard bar setup responds with a jacking effect on body roll.
I'm separating actual grip from the way the chassis talks to the driver. The end result is confidence to a new/less experienced driver.
Car setup and component selection can make a huge difference. We run a fully prepped 8:1 steering gear up front and find it to be far more responsive than the R&P cars we also compete in with better feedback to the driver. Other people hate it when they drive the car so it may be a matter of driver perception and preference. Same for the rear end. We happen to own a fbody that has an aftermarket IRS system in it. Despite being lighter (no cage in this one yet) the car is slower at autocross because of how the IRS doesn't provide feedback to the driver and doesn't grip as well. The IRS equipped car is more prone to spinning in a corner and has issues with wheel hop the live axle car doesn't. Our live axle cars run a Watts Link instead of a panhard setup though. Both cars run identical tire sizes and brands.
The differences may come down to driver preference. Someone who grew up learning to drive an IRS R&P car may never like the feel of a solid axle steering gear type vehicle. Regardless of the mods done to the vehicle. Either way, you'll probably see more speed gains at autox from redesigning the front suspension than from any changes to the steering gear or rear axle.
05-17-2021, 10:54 PM
