89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

My car has just been installed with and dyno tuned for 195cc AFR heads and comp cams 8-503-8. Before the dyno it turned out 200 RWHP and 250ft/lbs of torque. Now after the head/cam combo 275 RWHP and 306 ft/lbs of toque. The car doesnt even feel the same. Come to find out also, the heads that were in my L98 were TBI heads! That would explain why I only ran 14.6 with no internal mods. Anyways thought I might post this up here. Anybody think that is a good for what i bought?

leeperryracing

75rwhp gain/56rwtq gain=hell yeah

shaggy56

That power is similar to the ZZ4 crate. The ZZ4 heads are a smaller cc head. I would think a larger cam or smaller heads would have done a better job.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

well i had a hell of a deal on the 195 cc 1100 for them had them go to 64cc combustion chamber to keep my compression the same. I am loving the cam though.....sound so mean mwahahahahaha

HD4mula

DITTO! Open up the intake and you shuold gain more

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

ive got the HSR on there what else can i do to open up the intake???

Guest

Nothin.
You should be able to get more out of it, hard to say where its missing. Compression ratio is probably low, and IMO other headers would likely help.

zz4monte

What is the cam specs on that comp. cam because shaggy 56 is right about the rwhp.I have 271rwhp from a stock zz4 with the only mods being 1.5 rollers but your torque seems low.306?I would think that you would have atleast 330tq.My zz4 put down 368rwtq.
There is alot more power that that motor can put to the ground!!!!

joewee350

I dont own a camaro but love them. I just received my AFR 195cc eliminators today and plan to put them on some time this week. I ran a 13.6@101 without the heads and am hoping that the heads alone will help out a great deal. If i can get 50whp out of them I will be pleased. Awesome results. I dont even know the specs on the cam but I'm sure you can go bigger with those heads.

shaggy56

Heres a dyno run of a ZZ4 with AFR 190 heads and a Stealth Ram. I dont know if the headers would make that much of a difference. I am usually weary about good deals.

HSR vs TPI

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

so according to that i should be making aorund 320 rwhp??
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specs are here Camshaft Specifications

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

I helped Jamy with your install at AH. I'm the one you got your seats from... Yea I was like hey jamy check out thse casting numbers, these are TBI heads and he was like oh I gotta report this to him lol.

zz4monte

Your rear wheel hp is never what you think it will be but I would think you should have atleast 310rwhp with that setup I guy I know with a stock zz4 with the same cam except a 110 lobe seperation ran 296rwhp with nothing else done and he had a 700r4 also.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

Was this motor a replacement or something that included the shortblock and heads? If so, wit the AFR's and guessing they are 68CC you could be around the 8:5:1 comp ratio if this was a replace ment motor. Also if your heads are the AFR 74cc heads then i have no comment on that one as your motor would be in the 7's!! I also noticed that the HSR had ports opened to a 1204 gasket but the afr heads were 1205. I would have opened up the ports on the intake also. I also saw you were running stock stamped rockers. Theres a few RWHP with going with a full valve train also. I would remove that "performance spacer" between the TB and intake as its accually smaller then the TB!!!

Guest

What kind of dyno?

Go run the car, see what sort of ET and MPH you get.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

Thanks for the seats dude! and for help on the install yeah i was pretty pissed when he called me and told me about the tbi heads..
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i thought i had asked jamy to see if that could be removed but maybe he forgot or for some reason it couldnt be. Who knows? he said he got the heads back to 64cc. Jamy also said the cam might've had a lil too much lift if I put Roller rockers on it. The heads I bought came with the heads, pushrods, 1.6 RR's. I thought Jamy put the 1.6's in but i dunno.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

I plan to once I get money for traction

zz4monte

If it was a mustang dyno that could explain it a little.I never liked the dam things. That sounds right though, run the car at the track and see what it does.There are plenty of guys on this board with 20-30rwhp less then me and run similar times.The setup of the car will have alot more to do with it then just power numbers.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

Jamy from LS racing chips/Akron Horsepower dynoed it...It was dynojet I believe.

shaggy56

I used your combination as an example for this formula. I got this formula which has been used for selecting heads from a super stock engine builder. I used 6000 rpm since this is probably the intended rpm level of the intake and peak power your after.

(bore x bore x stroke x rpm x .00353/614)

4 x 4 x 3.48 x 6000 x .00353/614=1.92 square inches

1.92 is the minimum cross section of the heads to get the optimum power without hurting port velocity.


heres a chart from the book "HOW TO BUILD BIG-INCH CHEVY SMALL BLOCKS" with some common cross sectional port sizes.
(measured at the smallest part of the ports)
...........................sq inches........port cc
edelbrock performer rpm ....1.43.............170
vortec......................1.66.............170
tfs195......................1.93.............195
afr 180.....................1.93.............180
afr 195.....................1.98.............195
afr 210.....................2.05.............210
dart pro 200................2.06.............200
dart pro 215................2.14.............215
brodix track 1 .............2.30.............221
dart pro 1 230..............2.40.............230
edelbrock 23 high port .....2.53.............238
edelbrock 18 deg............2.71.............266
tfs 18 deg..................2.80.............250

The AFR 195cc heads have a minimum cross section of 1.98 square inches. If the heads were ever ported then this may be even more.

From the formula it may be the indicator of the low torque output. Minimum cross section is just as important as head volume. The TFS 195 heads, AFR 180s, or any other head with a similar minimum cross section may have been a good choice.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

i am actually in the process of checking my engine to see if it is a 305 or 350 in there. If the sob that put my "rebuilt" engine in the car put a 305 tbi in there oooooooooooooo im gonna get so pissed

shaggy56

Post the casting numbers on the back of the block.

MorTec, Chevy V-8 Engine Block and Head Casting Number Locations

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

its a 350......dammit maybe cats are clogging it up? im making the power down below up top i think its dying

jgetti

Have any idea what your assembled quench height is? Compression ratio? Those alone can make a pretty big difference. Also, was your cam degreed? If cam timing is off, it can make a great setup perform marginal.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

Cam was degreed.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

the car was dyno tuned.....by a very reliable person....besides i only had 200 hp when i went to him....the problem isnt the cam/head....its something that was going on before that.....and been going on for a while

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

what exhaust setup did he have?

shaggy56

Hes a member I believe.

Mizfit Creations Gainesville, FL

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

the website shaggy just gave me a link to says he dyno at 268 rwhp and 315 rwtq.....my dyno was 274 RWHP and 306 RWTQ not much difference....unless there is something i dont see?

btw do you know what he his times are in 1/4?

mike1986fyrbird

Your down ALOT of power.
I put down 280rwhp/310Ft-lb on a Mustang dyno with stock fuel tables.
Specs:
357ci
Holley Stealth Ram
Edelbrock 170cc performer rpm heads
Comp XE-268 Flat Tappet.. not roller. 224/230 Duration.
AFR was 12.2 up to 5,000rpm
AFR Dipped down to 11.5 by 6,000rpm

That being said; Your heads are A LOT beter then mine. Your cam is a roller cam and should provide more power over mine.
You are loosing quite a bit of power somewhere.
Was your converter locked up? What brand is it?

Where did the power peak? It should peak near/over 6,000rpm with that cam/heads and the HSR. Can you post up a graph?

For reference there is a guy on www.stealthram.com putting out 380rwhp on a 350 with the same heads and a smaller cam. 224/224 Hydraulic roller.

When people are comparing your numbers to ZZ4 numbers (zz4 heads are l98 aluminum heads), your afr heads flow 50-60cfm more then those.

shaggy56

This is why I mentioned about the heads being ported. I know sometimes this is just another name for a "good deal". If his ports cross section and CC is any bigger than the stock AFR then he could be losing lots of port velocity. I mean take his same setup and put some heads with a huge port cross section and you will see the low lift numbers start to decline and power would be similar to a small port head.

zz4monte

The guy I know has a zz4 with the comp cams in a monte ss not a camaro.He uses the edelbrock TES headers.He runs 296rwhp and 342rwtq. He estimates 390hp at the crank.He also runs 3.73 gear which I am told will effect rwhp and torque numbers.I am sure someone will say different but that is what I have been told buy several people.Don't know if it is really true?Also I forgot he runs a performer RPM intake instead of a standard zz4 intake which is just a performer.As for me I run the zz4 with 1.5 GM roller rockers, underdrive pulleys, 1 5/8 headers and true dual 2 1/2 inch pipe out the back.The dyno numbers for my zz4 where with the stock zz4 with no electric fan, underdrive pulleys or 1.5 roller rockers.Most zz4's with true dual exhaust and 1 3/4 headers will pull 280+rwhp but they will run around 330rwtq because of the bigger header.I wanted more torque at a few hp loss up top.The 271rwhp and 368rwtq was also done when I had the stock 7.5 rear with 3.73s.Now I have the GN 8.5 with 3.42's.So basiclly I took away a little gear and added the electric fan, underdrive pulleys and 1.5 rollers. Don't know if that changes anything?
Here are my 1/8mile times

8.65
81mph
1.98 60ft

I am running a near stock stall and as you can see my 60ft is a little high for someone who has full suspension and mt drag radials. Hope to get that higher stall soon.I also estimate that I am only making 335-345 flywheel hp. I think 400+hp would be for that motor? Something is not right or miss matched.Maybe some of you guys can make a remark about gears ratios? Does it really make that much of a difference or any on the dyno?I know the gears make the motor rev quicker but does that mean it put more power to the ground?You only have 3.08's.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

peak power is around 5700 trying to get somebody to scan the dyno graph and post on here. Anybody can say they are putting out 380 rwhp did the guy have a graph to prove it? My converter is stock but i plan on getting a 2400 or 2600 stall.
i just looked at the guy on stealthram.com and did you not see the fact that he had a 150 shot????
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well my question to you shaggy "Is 80 rwhp and 56rwtq is that the gain i should have expected from the combo?" 200rwhp and 250rwtq on HSR edlebrock headers cat back and custom chip on a 89 350 motor doesnt sound right...or is it just me? I looked up a dyno graph a few weeks ago and found one on a 350 camaro with no internal mods (like myself) and he had 225-230 rwhp and 280ish rwtq. His first pull without tuning was exactly like mine with the custom chip.....see where i am going with this?

shaggy56

Your torque is real low and your power even with the missing 25-30 hp still doesnt seem right.

zz4monte

Another thing about when they dynoed my car on the dyno jet there where 2 other cars there at the time. My brothers 98z and a 83 el camino with a 383 stroker. The 383 el camino made somwhere around 320rwhp and 360rwtq and my brothers almost totally stock LS1 ran 308rwhp if I remember right and only 330ish rwtq.I am just remembering this off the top of my head, this was 2 years ago.Anyways the dyno guy was really surprised that I made so little rwhp but so much rwtq.He said he had done several zz4s and after a few jettings most ran around 280rwhp with 1 3/4 headers and a auto tranny. but I ran 1 5/8 and this probably led to the higher torque numbers.The 383 had a single plan intake and 1 3/4 headers which probabaly led to the rwtq being only a few rwtq less.But either way I was surprised how much torque it put down.

mike1986fyrbird

Click the dyno graph link on stealthram.com. As stated, the pull was without the nitrous.

If you don't like the fact that something is wrong and you're missing a **** load of power then that's fine but I would be looking for the source of the problem.
I'm making more power then you on a mustang dyno which reads lower then a dynojet, a flat tappet cam (rollers produce more power)and wayyyy shittier heads. Something isn't right. I'm just using my car as an example as i'm using the same intake as you.
As stated before, that dyno pull was running a stock chip/tune.

Edit - I noticed that zz4 monte posted and said people with zz4 crates are hitting 280~ rear wheel hp. That ZZ4 cam is a lot smaller then yours. It is only 208/221 duration yours is 224/230 duraction, and the heads flow 200cfm where as yours flow 260+cfrm. See what i'm getting at? You should be making way more power then the ZZ4.

Now as mentioned, this is very important, What model of AFR heads did you get? What is the chamber size/volume?

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

195cc 64cc combustion chamber

I apologize for the remark about the dyno. You were right. However i take it as everybody here thinks it is something in the head/cam. I appreciate the feedback and I apologize if I seem ungrateful. It is just the fact that my car put down 200 rwhp and 250ftlbs rwtq before and whatever was wrong with my car then, could be messing this up? Soon I will take the car to GT Motorsports in Manassas and get a compression test and see what the deal is. I will see also if he can double check the block numbers to see if it is a 350.

mike1986fyrbird

Was the tip in lean spike tuned?
The holley stealth ram is a large plenum, and will require quite a large of fuel to be added upon mashing the throttle. This is called Acceleration Enrichment, or pump shot if you're talking carbs.
I have the same problem that I have been trying to tune out for a while. Basically, this is what happens. Mash the gas in third on the dyno, spikes lean for a split second 0.2 of a second, if that, then back to normal 12.X:1. This then creates massive knock retard through the whole gear the car is in and will pull 15deg* of timing through the remainder of the gear.
This could be where all your power is. 15* of retard is a lot of power.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

is that what happened with ur car? btw still working on getting the dyno graph posted

shaggy56

I dont know if this was posted but it shows a bunch of HSR builds. The engines with 195 heads had larger cams or more cubes.

HSR CARS

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

yes my heads are used on 383's usually....maybe that'll have to be the next project however could that be where all my power is going?

mike1986fyrbird

Yes. I tried easing into the throttle to avoid Accelleration Enrichment on the dyno but i'm not sure if I got zero knock counts or not. I didn't have my laptop with me. I have a few problems of my own though. The dyno chart shows it breaking up in the upper rpms. Never buy a ProComp distributor. I have one and i'm having a problem with oil ending up in my distributor cap. Oil isn't conductive so that's not good. My crappy Y-pipe for my headers is press bent and goes under 2" in the bends.

mike1986fyrbird

There are only two n/a afr headed cars there with dyno numbers.
They are both 350s and they both have smaller camshafts.
One has a AFR 190's. LPE 211/219 camshaft and is making 305rwhp/332rwtq
One has a AFR 195's Comp 224/224 .560"/.560" camshaft and is making 380/427rwtq

EDIT- 89formula, What was the casting number on the block - was it a L98 block or a older 350 block?

Edit again - Are you running stock fuel injectors/stock fuel injectors? If so you'd be maxing out the 22lb injectors. I'm hitting mid 90% injector duty cycle at 5500rpm anything over 80% generaly isn't a good thing..

shaggy56

Maybe hes running a 305 then. Its funny how completely different those dyno runs are. Really makes me wonder why so much deviation.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

might be older 350 block let me double check

mike1986fyrbird

I just thought of another thing.
If you are running stock injectors and stock fuel pressure you are maxing out the injectors.
With 22lb (stock l98 injectors) I am at 95% duty cycle at 5800rpm.
Anything over 80% duty cycle should be avoided. I've read that the injectors have a chance to go static (stay open all the time) instead of pulsing at duty cycles higher then 80%.
If you have a adjustible fuel pressure regulator you should be able to compensate and run a little higher fuel pressure. You will have to figure out the flow rate of the injector with the new fuel pressure and change the flow rates in the chip.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

interesting....are you running a similar combo to me?

mike1986fyrbird

I dyno'd 280rwhp/310rwtrq on pretty much the stock tune and some problems listed in an above post, We're making about the same power. I've posted my mods somewhere in this thread.
Edit - See sig for mods.

Edit - What is your exhaust setup? If you are still runing the stock pipes after you'd probably gain quite a bit going to an aftermarket 3" or bigger catback.
What about air intake?
Does the car feel faster if you ease into the throttle (2-3second before going full wot) instead of stabing it? Do this is a higher gear(2nd, 3rd), you should be able to tell if you're getting massive knock retard from a Tip-In lean spike. Best bet is to get it Datalogged.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

air intake is the bs from slp not the tubing intake the rubber boot bs from slp.....bbk TB 52mm, hsr of course, edelbrock headers dual cats, 2 and half inch cat back
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forgot to add, the car seems really sluggish now....like a spark plug has gone bad or wire is fried......or exhaust leak maybe....ill just wait and check it tomorrow when there is light...btw cats are stock and when i revv it in N or P after ab 4000 rpms there is a crackle like noise when i let off the gas pedal......does that give anybody new ideas?

didnt you say you were on a mustang dyno? that being said i was on dynojet so you are making more power than i

mike1986fyrbird

That 2.5" exhaust is probably hurting you.By how much, I don't know. 2.5" is only good up to 250hp at the flywheel you have 325~ at the moment, and isnt recomended on an engine over 300ci.


The crackling from a neutral rev is usually normal from single exhaust systems.

In reply to your pm, you need a laptop and a aldl cable to datalog your car. Check out the ecm/efi board.

They should have done that when they "dynotuned" it.

I noticed LSRacing is from Ohio and you're from Virginia, did you go to ohio for them to tune it? Or did you just get the chip mail order?