572_Rat

Just received this from TIck Performance, they also sold these items under Camarohawk on Ebay

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Just saw this...hmm.

I have a tick in my car, as far as i know it's tilton/tick.

I'm guessing hawks went direct with tilton instead of through tick? But still using all of tick's instructions and just cut them out?

Javier87z28

iTrader: (1)

Wow bump

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Interested in hearing the other side to this

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

same. thought hawks was a good place for parts.

watajob

iTrader: (29)

+1

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

I got the same email since I bought my Tick direct through Tick and not a 3rd party vendor. I would venture to guess this may not be the first instance of this type of action on their part, given the fiasco with their polished 1 5/8 "SSW" LSx longtubes that they sold as SSW in a group purchase back in 2009 and still selo on their website. They changed the wording on the product details on their website but they still continue to sell them.


http://www.tickperformance.com/buyer...nock-off-list/

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

just got the email too! holy effing crap! i've heard and seen bruce do some pretty nasty stuff in the past (think, chinese knock-off swap headers sold as SSW headers, etc) but i think this is just to far.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

I was like really Tick nice marketing?...then read a little further when i saw Hawks in the email i just said damn...time to get back on tgo and see what's going on!

I always buy right from manufacture if possible to avoid situations like this...

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

If Tick doesnt actually make theirs and Hawks and Tick get their part from the same supplier and Hawks just cut Tick out of the loop... Same part at the same quality. Its clearly illegal and shady, but I wouldnt be so eager to say customers got screwed.

Very shady, though. Not the first shady example of something Hawks has done but probably one of the most blatant I've seen.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

I would say they got screwed even if only for the lack of a warranty that was implied with the sale. I think we can all agree that tick has one of the best warranties in the aftermarket. ...if you buy a real tick.


Posted from Thirdgen.org App for Android

Richboll

I'd like to hear Hawk's side of the story...if they have one!

totalglitch

i ordered one in april i just installed the damn thing last night with headers was a pain in the ***, and now i get this email. I called tick and hawks bruce said it was a problem getting products from tick so they started making their own. I need some help here all parts are suppose to be the same and he said if any problems at all that he would replace it. But im just like kinda lost for words and also hate the fact that i put all that work in and now would have to take another hour to take it off have my money refunded and then order from tick, can i get some other opinions please.

totalglitch

.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Calm down dude. 2 minutes.

The Tick is to me, a welcome addition to the aftermarket. Tilton is known to make quality products and Tick worked on adapting one to the firewall for an easy install. If Bruce is leaving their name on the one's he's selling and going through Tilton directly, that's wrong and he should be in court over it.

Not that I am for sure whether he's buying the bracket from the same source or what... But the source of the copycat parts is just as much at fault as Bruce if they were aware. If they're overseas, that's going to make things interesting.

Please do post pictures of yours (as best you can; I know it's not cake to get under that brake booster.) As for your course of action, I'd find a way to A - lightly scar the part so it can't be re-sold and B - call your credit card co. immediately to see if they will back you up on a refund. If Bruce wants it back, he can pay return shipping.

That's my take. And I have no affiliation with either party, but have ordered from both at one time or another since the 1990s.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

so this is a counterfeit one? Looks like an actual tilton master... so the counterfitting is in the adapter and the lines?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/84-92-Camaro-Firebird-T5-Adjustable-Clutch-Master-Cylinder-Kit-/310699633511?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item4857242b67
Does not say tick

totalglitch

Tick said they dont put tick on their product, thats for display only. And it use to say tick when you looked at it online but now its, hawks/tilton master cylinder. Again I see both sides, but its just like wow what a pain in the *** now.

hawksthirdgen

Hi,
To put a simple reply , Hawks manufactures its own adjustable master cylinder kits using Tilton master cylinders, our made in the USA machine blocks and our clutch line adapters are made by McCleod ,we manufacture our own kits simply to keep up supply due to demand from our customers, REPEATED back orders prompted us to make our own adjustable master cylinders to meet our customers demands , it in no way was to defraud or make a cheaper or inferior product , simply a supply and demand case.
Sincerely,
Bruce Hawkins
www.hawksthirdgenparts.com

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If thats the case and is legal on your part, are you taking any action against Tick?

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

then why were the ads, instructions, and pictures all direct copies from tick's website? why not advertise these as your own units? you did this very same thing a couple of years ago with the chinese headers. you should feel shameful, not boastful like you do now. karma will catch up bruce.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

None of which answers the question.

Plain & simple, was Tick's name on product they did not supply?

86White_T/A305

The question isnt about whether Tick's name was on the product but saying the warranty services are being done by Tick when its not is false advertising.Hawks once used to be a Ticks dealer..apparently that relationship ended awhile ago.

Tick is also claiming that Hawks also copied the trans rebuild listings word for word off their website.

Is there any kind of patent on the Tick design or exclusive rights that they have to use the Tilton masters? Thats where this will become a legal battle imo.

Side note..I also went straight to the source when I bought my Tick and it was cheaper back then lol.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

As I'm sure everyone here knows, Tick's dog in the fight isn't the actual master cylinder itself, but the aluminum block and adapter lines that come attached to it. It is the precision tooling on the hunk of aluminum that makes a Tilton master cylinder fit on the firewall of our cars.

Even if Hawks is producing their "own" piece, if it is a direct copy off the aluminum block that is attached to Tick's product, then there is probably some form of patent violation involved (assuming Tick patented their product). You can't just take someone else's design and start making the exact same thing and call it your own.

Can whoever above that posted and said they got the Hawks version take a picture and show us what their version looks like? I'm curious to see how close it is to the Tick block.

For what it's worth, my Tick master cylinder that I got about 3 years has Tick's name engraved in the aluminum block and I think it says Made in the USA also...

totalglitch

ill have to take a pic of it later but its the same thing, nothing is different at all bradded hose with blue an fitting, it has the tilton lettering on the side below the res, the aluminum block there is no etching at all on the unit and the same adjustable arm on it.

totalglitch

totalglitch

totalglitch

totalglitch

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

that thing is IDENTICAL to mine, which i bought mine back in october/november traight from tick.

when you bought that, were you under the impression that you were getting a genuine Tick Performance master or did you know it was a hawk's master?

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I'll just coy/past my FB post.
I have been in Bruce's shoes before with a few suppliers and it sucks when they won't "supply" the parts you need in a timely fashon.
It also gets old listening to customers complain "where are my parts?, Y isn't my car done?, Y can't you get my car in? ". I can deal with a little down time but sadly, some customers just can't/ won't.
Well, as a vendor, you do what you have to supply the customer.
In regards to the web site and instructions, I'd bet the webpage just hasn't been updated and the instructions would be the same as he was a seller from the said supplier and already was using them. Really, how much different is this part than a factory setup? Its not special or made of gold. Its really only a block of aluminum and they get the rest of their parts from a supplier.
I'm sure Tick is PO'd but it sounds 2 me like maybe they should pick up the pace a lil bit if they want to corner the market on a part anyone on the planet with half a brain could build.

Do you think ole Vic Edelbrock is PO'd about the cheap overseas copies of his stuff that I see a lot of people on this site are buying??

Did you guys know that when Crane Cams closed Comp started getting cheap azz cam cores from china (like the one I'm having issues with) and sold them as normal Comp quality?

Did you guys know that Hamburger sold his oilpan business many years ago and you have been buying a cheap china/Taiwan copy for years.

I can go on and on about companies doing this and I do see both sides. I just think the changed happened to the products supplier and web info/ instructions were not updated promptly/properly.

5LTREATR

I am Jonathan, owner of Tick Performance. Since Bruce has replied in here I feel that I should give a bit of info. We do not have a Patent of any sort on our master cylinder kits. As has been mentioned, the kits uses a Tilton cylinder....our portion is simply the adapter brackets, linkage, fittings, line, and the instructions.

The issue is not that they copied our product, that has already been done one time in the past with the GTO kits. They or anyone else has every right to copy or redesign our product and make it there own. No, I don't like that....but that is simply how it is. If we did patent the kit a simple design change would avoid any legal action and we were advised a long time ago not to waste money on a patent for this particular product.

The problem we have with Hawks is simple....they chose to copy our product as closely as possible and then continued to sell it as a Tick Master. Their website listed the product as a Tick Master, the description was word for word from our own website.

An employee of Tick purchased a GTO "Tick" master from Hawks last week after being notified that Hawks was selling their own kits under our name. Sure enough, the master came in and it wasn't ours. However the instructions provided with the kit were our instructions. Tick Performance at the top of the page....word for word, printed right from our website. Clearly they were producing their own parts while using our Brand and reputation to sell the product.

Hawks kit uses the same Tilton cylinder. The bracket is very close to the same. The hardware is literally the same. Will people likely have an issue with Hawks master because it is inferior? Probably not. But would you wish to do business with a company with these business ethics?

We haven't had repeated problems with inventory as Bruce makes out, and even if we did there is NO reason he should copy our kit and market it as a Tick product even if we did have issues with inventory. We have several dealers and none had a problem waiting a couple of weeks for a cylinder. No ones life ended because they couldn't get our master quickly enough.

Bruce could have produced his "own" kit and sold it as such, but he knows that he would have sold far less kits initially as a competitor of Tick. We have worked hard and earned our place in the community and our stellar reputation. We have strong ties with Tilton that allows us to provide that lifetime warranty. If Hawks built their own brand up, I'm sure they would have faced stiff criticism for knocking our kit off...but I'm sure with the right price they would have sold them and could build their reputation the right way, just like we did when the only alternatives were RAM modified stock units and leaky Mcleod units (for f-bodies).

I'm sure things will work themselves out in the end. We run an honest business selling honest products. From the sound of things, Hawks already has had a few questionable situations in the past. How many more times will something like this happen before people see the true colors of Hawks Third Generation? On Hawks facebook page right now there is a post from a few weeks back about a test vehicle for a c6 master....so I guess they have ripped that kit off as well. Bruce admitted to me over the phone they did the f-body master...but denied the GTO kit until I told him we actually purchased one from Hawks. There wasn't much he could say after that....

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

sounds like to me that bruce is a lying sack of crap who's relying on the success of others to make a quick buck. i'm through with him.

totalglitch

yea i thought i was getting a tick.

P2004GTO

I am new here, I actually spotted this thread while searching google. Reading this reminds me of how few and far between trustworthy shops are. I recently installed 2 GTO kits on two of my friends cars. One was purchased through Tick and the other through Hawks. Tick is a great company but my second friend found the Tick master through Hawks for cheaper...or at least he thought it was a Tick. I remember details about the kits since it was not to long ago and there were details that were slightly different. The one from Hawks was the same overall but the bracket didn't have two holes that went all the way through where the studs screwed in. Different bolts, nuts and hose were used but still made to look like the same kit. There is no doubt that the kit was a knock off. Hawks website, which has changed now, referred to the kit as a Tick master. Not only that, but it came with Tick Performance instructions. It is so sad to see one company trying to make money off of another company's name.

totalglitch

has he had any problems with the one from hawks at all??

5LTREATR

In less than 12 hours and only a couple of posts on forums I have heard from no less than 10 different cases of these counterfeit masters that were purchased. You just described the differences to a tee.

86White_T/A305

Jonathon can you clarify if all of your masters have the Tick logo engraved on the units? Now that I think back when I did my initial ls1 swap (2-3yrs ago)I ordered all my parts and now that I dont have those receipts anymore Im not 100% sure i bought my 98-02 master directly from Tick or if I got it during my order from hawks for all my swap brackets. Is there anyway to verify a Tick master vs a Hawks master?

And thanks for at least coming on here and speaking on the matter since Tick has a great reputation with many lsx guys here I swear by it..assuming mine is a Tick unit still lol :S

I think I still have my instructions sheet somewhere around but it was a Tick manual.Ill try to find it and take a pic if I can.

5LTREATR

We did a few kits early on that had the logo engraved. We haven't had that on our kits in a long time. If it has been that long ago you should have one of our kits. It has been just over a year since Hawks last purchase from us.

86White_T/A305

Yes mine does not have a logo on it but its over 2 years old for sure.If thats the case for people who have bought a legit Tick master that was through hawks during that time period..does your warranty still apply? And what is the policy on cars like ours that are lsx swaps with t56's using a 98-02 master?

jmd

iTrader: (4)

There goes that possible out for Bruce.

Javier87z28

iTrader: (1)

This really makes me reluctant to purchase any of their products

Chevy86 IROC-Z

iTrader: (17)

Interesting. Subscribed.

BluFBdy

iTrader: (1)

Very sad to see this. I used to order from hawks but between these sketchy stories and my personal experience, I'm fairly confident in saying that I will not purchase from them ever again. Makes me wonder what all is knock off that they've pushed off on to people over the years.

Stick to the junkyards and tgo for most of my needs any way, and there is plenty of competition out there for this over priced slight of hand business.

Rich92 RS

iTrader: (16)

Glad I ordered mine straight from Tick. Always used Hawks as a last resort and hated having to order from them, they wont see another penny from me.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Good thing I have a leaky tick/mcleod one LOL Still, this is a disgusting way to do business

P2004GTO

As of right now...no. It has only been a month so only time will tell. My other buddy with the Tick cylinder has had it about 3 months and no problems either. I just know that my friends and I will never be buying from hawks ever again.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

So the ebay seller camarohawk is the same situation? I noticed it doesnt mention TICK anymore.

However...this part:

"We teamed up with Tilton Engineering to create the best master cylinder on the market for all late model GM vehicles."

..makes me squirm. Sounds like there was no teaming up. Measurements of the TICK block were taken, conveyed to whoever is making them, and they were made. The master cylinders are off the shelf parts. Where is the teaming up?

Its just gives a horrible impression and doesnt make them look good at all. Regardless of how legal or illegal it was.

J.

redneckjoe

more bad business practice by hawks.

i often wonder why they're allowed the privelage of being a sponsor on here? its misleading to newbies looking for parts. my experience with them has been aweful, late on delivery, over-priced, and treated rudely on the phone when checking a back order.
NEVER AGAIN!!!

white1991rs

Never was a big fan of Hawks. Disappointing to hear though.

hawksthirdgen

Hi,
Simply put, Hawks made a bad call , we did not intend to make it look like we copied or renamed a product and steal a design, although that is how it seems. I made a decision to manufacture our Tilton master based upon Tick not keeping them in stock and after repeated attempts to get product on the shelf we decided to manufacture our own part, simple as that.
Looking back, I the owner of the company should have called Jonathan (The Owner of Tick) and try to handle the situation in a different manner, owner to owner, instead of taking matters into my own hands and making our cylinder to take care of back orders and current customer requests . That was a mistake on MY part!
With that being said I want to apologize to Jonathan and the team at Tick Performance, to my staff at my shop and most of all to our valued customer that we made you question our professionalism and ethics. The master cylinders we make are made to the same quality as they always have been and have never been made with any type of inferior part, but the point is I the owner of our company should have made a different decision, simple as that! There is no excuse for the decisions I made ethically and I have been in contact with Jonathan and am doing everything I can to make my wrong right, not because of money or trying to have a better part or trying to seem like we stole someone's design. I simply am trying to make it right being the man I truly am because I made a bad decision putting my customers and employees and business first when in reality I was putting them in harm's way.
I have worked in this industry for 14 years and believe I have always done the best thing for my customers up to this point . I simply made a bad call and I will have to live with that. I would ask my customers to understand the decision I made ( not necessarily to agree with it although it was the wrong decision) and hopefully give our company your continued support.

Sincerely,
Bruce Hawkins
Hawks Third Generation, LLC