BadSS

I’ve started porting on this “new” FIRST Injections intake system and thought you all might like to see how large these runners can be opened up. The first picture is of the stock TPI runners (for a reference of sorts), that measure right at 1.5” inside diameter,,,, followed by the ported FIRST runners.

BadSS

That’s about as large as I feel comfortable going with (1.9215”). That diameter is held fairly constant though the length of the runner – which is only 5.875” (short side radius). The top of the runners are opened to 1.97” but it tapers down to the 1.9” mark. You can see the difference in the unported FIRST runner to the right. Even unported they’re pretty health measuring right at a 1.75” inside diameter right out of the box. I’m fairly impressed with this FIRST unit. I’ll post a couple pics of the base when I finish working it if anyone’s interested. For those of you that didn’t know already,,, the runners are not interchangeable with the stock (or the typical aftermarket) TPI base.

Hasselhof

Hi BadSS

It have been my plan for some time to get myself a FIRST system, im very interested in anything you have to say about it. To me it looks like a winner from all angles. keep the low end grunt while freeflowing on the top so it can utilize that 4. bounce I think it is called. I had a thread about it some time back...some pretty awesome dynonumbers was posted by other members.

smithtc

iTrader: (5)

How are you able to port it at the midpoint area to keep a constant cross section?

D Stroy H8

Yeah that's my question too. Also, I thought these runners were no longer produced! Where would one get them?

What do you mean non interchangeable w/ stock or aftermarket base? If you can't use a stock or aftermarket base, then what the hell do you use?

jmd

iTrader: (4)

a FIRST piece.

Hasselhof

http://www.firstinjections.com

this is the company that sells/makes them.

JERRYWHO

Thats my question also, I have some of the best porting equipment ( made by C&C ) and still need to open up runners to get them done.

Jerry

Picture of cut open runners.

D Stroy H8

They have some cool stuff! Side mounted TB is sick looking plus it'd make a custom CAI a piece of cake. I wonder how much better thier complete system (untouched) would flow over a stock GM TPI.

BadSS

The FIRST Injections unit is a complete system, starting with a 73mm mono-blade throttle body, radiused entry / exit plenum, cast runners (4 pieces), and base intake (1.847” smallest opening – as cast) --- none are interchangable with the stock TPI,,, although it looks like the TPI intake system on a major dose of steroids.

Yep, the FIRST unit, formally know as the Air Sensors FIRST unit and then the Electromotive's IRS system did well in the dyno shoot-outs back in the late 80s and early 90s. I wanted one back then,,, but they were around $3000 with the electronics,,, and they wouldn’t sell the intake system without the electronics back then. I was glad to see FIRST Injections resurrect this intake system and sale them with and without electronics.

-- quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Originally posted by smithtc
-- How are you able to port it at the midpoint area to keep a
-- constant cross section?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Thats my question also, I have some of the best porting
-- equipment ( made by C&C ) and still need to open up runners to
-- get them done.

-- Jerry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I’ve ported a few sets of SLP runners myself and there’s no way to get them opened up remotely close to these FIRST runners without doing as Jerry (and others) have done by cutting them open and welding them back together.

If you compare the TPI and FIRST runners pictures, you can see that the FIRST runners are shorter (5.875” inside radius) than the stock type TPI runners (7.125” inside radius). It’s no cake walk and it’s time consuming,, but once the runner's openings are enlarged, you can get to everything using an oval shaped and a ball end bur with a 6” shank except about an inch and a half of the inside radius of the runner. I compensate for that by taking a little more off the sides and outside radius around the center of the runner. A 1.877” diameter ball passes through the runner with only a little resistance at the apex,,,, but it’s not perfectly round at that point. However, the cross sectional area appears to be held fairly constant.

I’ll be dynoing this system along with a Holley StealthRam in the near future,,, soon after I finish porting the thing and running it down the track a few times.

D Stroy H8

Wow - so basically the whole thing is a TPI on steroids. I noticed looking at thier unit that it looks generally larger.

So you need EVERYTHING or NOTHING?

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Um..... this isn't true. You can have the SLP runner's extrude honed to 1.8 inches + evenly all the way through per opening.

Just a thought!

JERRYWHO

You are right I CAD ploted a with a 5.875 short side radius 1.90 ID 170 degree runner and it can be done. With our C&C tooling we can get 100% of the runner and with a standard shank tooling you will not get the center 1.375 on the SSR. The funny thing is you take a SLP runner at 6.900 SSR, 1.600 ID and the compound radius it has and you have no hope to even work the outsdie radius all the way.

Jerry

JERRYWHO

Just got to run the flag up on this one

On SLP runners you can get 1.650 at the lower bolt hole on all four runners before you cut thru to the outside. Now if you weld it up you can get bigger.

Jerry

See picture of welded and fitted bolt holes.

JERRYWHO

And cut and weld up the left side mounting bolt boss

JERRYWHO

And the notch for the throttle body water hose and just to make my point easy take a caliper to the outside of the runner next to the plenum and you will find it 1.8 so how can you get a SLP runner to 1.8 ID

Jerry

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

I'm just relaying info from extrude hone.

I see your point about the TB coolant notch in the passenger side runner. I guess that spot would be a little thin.

D Stroy H8

Here is what I want to know... will the runners bolt up to the stock plenum? I would be willing to get the FIRST runners and base, but if the runners won;t match up to the plenum... fug it, I'll go with edelbrock or accel or TPiS.

BadSS

Sorry man,,, the FIRST unit is a stand alone system. The FIRST unit's throttle body, plenum, runners, fuel rails, and base intake are not interchangable with the stock or aftermarket TPI parts. So, no the runner won't bolt up to the stock plenum. The runners are in 4 sections, runner spacing is different,,, as well as the bolt pattern that holds the runner sections in place. Here's a comparison of the plenums.

BadSS

Yep,,, I know,,, and a total reworking of the SLPs (as you've posted) can run into some serious cash if you're not doing the work for yourself. Also,, thanks for running the flag up on 1bad91Z and posting the pics,,, truly worth a thousand words.

JERRYWHO

One question about the FIRST system can you use a EGR system on it. I live in California and we get sent to a state run testing station every two years and all smog stuff needs to be on the car if it works or not.

Jerry

JERRYWHO

DP

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

You must be bitter about something........

BadSS

It does have provisions for an EGR system and you can see where the EGR valve bolts on the plenum in the previous pic post of the plenum comparison. So,,, it could pass visual and be fully functional if needed.


LOL,,,, no,,, I was just glad Jerry had pictures to post so I didn't have to waste my time typing a response. By the way,,, please PM me next time you think I'm bitter,,, or being rude about something. I’d rather you not use this thread to bait me and capitalize on an opportunity to increase your post count.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Badss - you have a private message.

BadSS

For those that are interested in this system,,, a 1206 gasket is a cake walk,,, no problems keeping that area all the way to the transition (rectangle to round). I'm pretty sure you can port to the inside edge of the 1207 (about a 1/16" step),,, but it looks like it'll get too thin where the intake's runners meet the flange to take it all the way out to a 1207. However,,, there would be no problems with this intake sealing up on a set of heads ported to a 1207 gasket. There's a little core shift,, but it is not that bad,,, I've seen A LOT worse!!!! This is an untouched base,,, and as you can see the inside casting of this intake is relatively smooth. Since this is going on the 355 first, I'll be gasket matching it to the 1205 for now.

rockind78

Looks like a pretty nice setup. The thing I would be concerned about is
1) cost versus output
-->Example: what would the dyno results of this system look like compared to that of a Stealthram, LT1, Super Ram, TPIS/AS&M/Edelbrock/SLP aftermarket runners, base, and ported plenum, etc. (Super Ram is pricey anyway, I will grant you)

2) charge velocity on motors smaller than or equal to 350 CI

Not trying to tear down the idea, just curious!

BadSS

In old 1990 shoot-outs. the power curves were similar between the FIRST unit and the SuperRam on relatively mild 350s. I'm swapping the StealthRam with this FIRST system on my 355 IROC and plan to do some track testing and dynoing it around the end of March after I get the tune (chip) dialed in. I'll let you all know if it works as well as I think it will.

Money wise,,, if you were starting from scratch, $1000 for the intake, fuel rails, runners, plenum, and 70mm monoblade throttle body (flows about like a 52mm dual T/B) is not a bad deal. You do have to buy a stand alone fuel pressure regulator, or buy $40 worth of fittings to convert your existing fuel pressure regulator. Fittings and fuel lines are needed also. Still,,, not that bad of a deal considering the SuperRam is around $1200 bucks (Accel intake) without a throttle body or adjustabe fuel pressure regulator (which most folks would buy).

I'm not trying to push this intake,, I have no stock or vested interest in FIRST injections,,,, I've wanted one of these intake since 1994 and I'm glad they're in production and available again. It's just another "new" alternative intake system for those that are interested in keeping the general look of the TPI system. FIRST injections is even working on a Vortec version of this intake just so you guys with the Vortecs should have another intake choice very soon.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

hmm........ first injections intake for vortec heads....... interesting!

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Their website must be down. www.firstinjections.com

german-motorsport

We posted "way back" our i guess only FIRST Unit in europe.
Still wonder why they charge 2200$ for the ECU / Ign Sys????????
I guess its cheaper to ad a tps to the throttel body.
Bad ss what Ecu or Ign are you using?

reading in some of our 5000 club mags the unit did very well back then!

we got our unit over 8 corners from a fool who did not know what FIRST was all about, he dumped the whole electronics....OUCH!

BadSS

I'm glad you got a deal on the purchase. I think FIRST Injections gets $1950 for the intake with GM based electronics. That seems to be a reasonable deal for all that's included. I didn't need anything but the intake since I'll be running the stock GM electronics in the 86 IROC.

What's your plans for the FIRST unit?

german-motorsport

Well as the biggest Club in Europe and maybe the oldest too we stock all kind of stuff.
I mentioned the IGN/ECU drama cause the FIRST got no TPS.
We too were thinking of using a "cheap" accel or painless tpi MAP harness to get it running so i guess we need to build a TPS hookup???????
Do you have any pics of ya TB?
Funny we have a EGR block plate on our Plenum.....

To all wondering about the power ..we will post the old shoot out data soon were this monster put the other TPI KIDS on there knees!

WWW.CAMARO-FIREBIRD.DE

german-motorsport

Bad SS any codes or data from the injectors you have would be cool!Are you using the FIRST INJECTORS?
It seems that i got Lucas injectors: 5720A530 11362-000
need some time on the weekend to make a search on those numbers!If someone has a link to Lucas numbers send a mail!

TPS Bracket on the TB now!
Sorry scan went down the drain:::::
only pics Baseline is: a Vette 89 L98 with edelbrock 6873 header sys and 88 iroc cat!more data on the weekend.

german-motorsport

again busting bubbels .......sorry TPIS users...LOL!
MOST HP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Torque Champ ..........very tight head to head run..........

rockind78

Is nice to see people actually getting their $$$ worth out of the AS&M.

FruityOne

Makes me glad I have a AS&M with SS runners ready to go on the car when I do the heads/cam/exhaust.

OMINOUS_87

Wow, thats some real cool info that you have posted. I always love a good show down. Funny however they left out the Superram amongst the intake selection, at the end of the day a Superram is still TPI, just done right.

I really didnt like the graphs to much as they were done in the article. So I redid them myself in Excel with raw numbers that were listed.

Also did some additional charts showing average numbers, whoever has the biggest average number is the real winner.

OMINOUS_87

more

OMINOUS_87

more.

OMINOUS_87

more..

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Ive talked to Ken on the phone about the FIRST setup. He has FLOW Bench #'s on a stock SR,the FIRST setup. I guess he is in the middle of redoing his website and will have tons more info on the setup online when he gets it done.

He says stock for stock a FIRST flows just as well as a SR. Hopefully soon I'll have 2 First Units here to port and mess with.

He has one guy who ported his beyond a 1207, and one guy with a vette who clames it pulls to 7500. The guy called him friday and said how happy he was with the setup. but didnt say what was done to the motor or intake to pull to 7500. :shrug:

Its deff a Nice setup and if I dont go LS6 for the 92Z then I'll finish of the 418 w/ turbos and do a FIRST setup

D Stroy H8

SLP performs poorly in all of those because it is out of the box I am assuming. Out of box they suck, but ported and cleaned up they will surpass AS&M I thought?

OMINOUS_87

I like the First setup also.

I have a Superram, but would own either setup.

However I would not own any other TPI based combination, the rest have all proven to be limited.

Superram cars have dipped real deap into the 11s, even some 11.0 passes out there, I bet we eventually see a First setup get into that range. Thats NA.

Kevin Gray

I have this article from May 1989 Car Craft.

The baseline was a totally stock TPI unit with a stock chip set at 6 degrees

The AS&M set up is a hand ported stock base with their AS&M runners and ported plenum using a stock chip at 6 degrees

SLP brought a prototype intake called the ShortRam that never made it to production. It looks VERY much like the Holley StealthRam and they brought a custom chip to use for testing.

TPiS used the "Big Mouth" intake, their Semi-Siamesed runners, an air foil, and a modified MAF sensor, stock chip,,, set at 6 degrees.

Air Sensors, FIRST used it's single mono blade throttle body,,, which should flow around 800 cfm,, it's own fueling electronics, and 4" MAF sensor with a mecahnical advanced distributor set at 6 degrees.

This was basically a stock L98 with the old Edelbrock 1.5" / 1.625" headers running through an F-body dual cat exhaust system. I doubt very seriously any of the systems were nuts on tuned but I doubt they were way off either. The FIRST unit might have had an advantage of user tuning,,,, that might be good,,, it might be bad. It definitely had an advantage with a larger MAF sensor and throttle body than the rest,,, but it's not like this stock engine actually needed it.

D Stroy H8

Oh. So those SLP numbers arent even for long tube runners. They are fo a non existant "short ram". A little off topic, but still... needed clarification.

OMINOUS_87

Wow, thats shady if true, I would like to see that info in actual print.

german-motorsport

OMINOUS_87 nice work there ! i am too busy for that kinda "work"!just got out of our "Locker Room" and took pics of my setups!LOL, hope noone in the club thinks they are his...hahahahha!

Kevin Gray you did what i should have done ....ya the slp is more than a starting project way back then!


rockind78 and FruityOne: you can never go wrong with ASM they are great !!!!!!!!!!!more shoot out data to come up!
i got a bigger old TPI shoot out with all the major comps in my brain hope ill have time for a search!
its more than a pain in da az..z to battle thru 6000 Mags in our club lib
The FIRST on ebay wasnt sold !
I need the Lucas Injector info !SOMEONE?
BAD *** what chip or ECU are you using when time with porting is over?
new pics on the port job?
I am starting this weekend , hope the gaskets come in !


TPl383 i have the vette guy website somewhere ! he is using it with all the "stock stuff" from FIRST!
twin turbo FIRST....we are creatin a winner club here..hahahhaha!
cant wait to see the website reload!

the idea behind the info we postet was just to show the younger ones in here that some real tuff players are gone , others are comming back and a tpis miniram is not the deal or end of the real pie!
it was be nice if we could bust this thread to be a real cool info base for the different TPI users on third gen!
there are the alu plenum tpi selfmade guys and others crafters with pervy ideas out there !PLEASE step in!

someone running a Alpha sys?

SR in the upper 10 sec zone?
any Motown or dart Injection cars running 10.0??????????????????????????????

german-motorsport

one more pic !

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

How about a link soon as You find it. Ken(owner of 1st ) was kinda skeptical of the guy saying he was pulling to 7500rpm with no problems at all with it.