Ok so I decided to do a heads, cam, and intake swap on an 87 TPI 350, stock as far as I know. I went with TFS 195 heads, Comp Cam XR276HR-12 and the hsr. I haven't really posted much because I try to always search first. I found lots of information and pics, but inevitably I knew I would have problems.

1. I'm not sure if I adjusted the valves right. I did it with the cam and crank gears aligned dot to dot, and in the order Haynes tells you too then aligned my distro at #1.

2. On that note not sure if I installed the dizzy right, but it should only be out a 180*, right?

3. Pretty sure I put the fuel lines right. Feed line goes to the passenger side rail and return line comes off the regulator on the driver's side, right?

The problem is I have a liquid filled pressure gauge on the rail on the passenger side at the front and it doesn't read that I have any pressure! I checked to make sure there was fuel coming from the feed line and it gushes.

The engine turns over and sounds like it wants to start, but nothing. When the weekend comes, I am going to find TDC again (is the best way to do this with my finger over the plug hole-which would be #1 firing?). Then I can assure my timing is right, but then what.

I have a lot of pics, but being my luck I didn't take enough and don't have pics of everything I needed to put stuff back right I may have some vacuum hoses wrong not sure. I will post any pics you might need to help me out and of my almost finished job.

I know it is kinda vague but I am just trying to see what all I should check. I won't be around until the weekend because I will be away soldiering, but I hopefully will be able to finish this weekend in between school exams. I appreciate any input and sorry about my first post being so long.

 

Boy oh Boy...... welcome to TGO!!!!

1) If you followed the "directions" and started setting your valve lash at TDC on #1 cylinder (Front Driver side) Timing chain and Crank Gear dot to dot. I don't see how you could screw it up.
Take your valve covers off (spin your crank) and watch for both of your #1 cylinder valve springs to be closed UN-COMPRESSED as your timing mark on your harmonic balancer shows TDC or "0" Each valve should be on the base of the cam-lobe and you slowly tighten the nut on the rocker arm up till you don't have spinable slack in your pushrod, then another 1/2 turn or whichever is specified. Repeat this for each valve in this order 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2. as both valves close for each particular piston.

2) While you valve covers are off and your watching your valve springs move up and down (slowly spinning the crank with a wrench/socket.) Watch the Intake valve on cylinder #1 open (drop down) then close (back up) The #1 cylinder has just theoretically taken in a fresh air fuel charge and is getting ready to light it... so set the rotor in the distributor pointing @ your #1 sparkplug terminal should be. Making sure to see that the Timing mark on the harmonic balancer coincides with TDC.

3) Sounds right to me but I'm not sure why your gauge reads zero. That's where I had mine as well and have since gone to a digital gauge inside.

Make sure you have a spark period. All your wires are OK, everything plugged where it's supposed to be? What about the coil? Everything plugged in there? Do you have a good ground? Did you attach the ground strap to the cylinder head?

Did you connect the EST wire (Passenger Firewall- one tan wire coming out of a large 1.5" wireloom then back in....) You disconnect it to set your initial timing to ?6degrees? then plug it back in and let the computer do the rest.

Hope that helps alittle.....
If anybody sees something wrong in my explanation please add your 2 cents, my feelings won't be hurt.

 

i got my fuel lines mixed up also, big one is the feed, you can have someone crank the engine while you move the distributor slighty in either direction to see if it want to hit, if not, turn it in the complete oppiste direction, or 180* the other way, and repeat the slight turning while cranking, if not, it's defanantly somthing else.

 

Hey thanks guys, I know there are a few possible solutions to my problem. That's the same lines I was thinking on so I will definitely do those things and then get back to ya.

Should my pressure gauge be reading something though? I know I have the lines hooked up right, but after I crank it over and check it, there isn't a reading, it just says 0.

 

Try a different fuel pressure gauge.I have used cheap ones before that did the same thing.Depends on the schrader valve that the guage isnt even seating all the down to open the valve and get a reading.That nearly caused my to literally triple check every connection,timing,fuel pump,ecm ..anything i thought would be wrong.

 

OK so it has been a while since I have been able to work on the car, but I got out there today and took ten steps back it feels.

First, when i rotated the crank to what i thought was top dead center according to my timing tab, the #3 intake valve was opened all the way up. I had my wife put her thumb over the #1 plug hole and it blew her finger off at 0* on the timing tab, but the #3 intake valve was up and #1 wasn't even moving. Any suggestions?

Second thing, was that I took off all my accessories and removed the pulley and the balancer and tried to rotate the crank via the crankshaft screw and messed up the threads, so I guess I need to get a tap and die set now!

So, I was thinking as long as i remove the timing chain from around the sprockets and set the #1 piston back to TDC compression; I can realign the sprockets. Should it be dot to dot or crank at 12 and cam at 12? I am really lost here cuz when it is at TDC my distributor is aligned with #1 so does my #1 intake valve need to be up?

 

Dot to dot. Cam sprocket at 6....crank at 12. And I believe intake up (closed).

Dave

 

i thought it was both dots at 12o'clock and the #1 valves closed at #1 top dead center. I think the 6-12o'clock is #6 top dead center. I did mine at 12-12 and the engine fired up the first time. Your fuel gauge is probably not opening your schrader valve. You can always get a valve stem tool and remove the guts inside the valve just make sure you pressure up the fuel system to check for leaks before you attempt to start the engine. Hope this helps.

 

I got a tap, so I'm gonna give it a go! Never done this before, hopefully it isn't too hard. I'll let you guys know how it goes latter.

 

so how did it all turnout. did you get it going.

 

Nah, I haven't gotten it going yet. It turns out that I had it all right, but I wasn't too sure so I double checked. What a PITA! I've had to put the car on the back burner along with everything else. I am trying to catch up on chemistry with finals next week and I am WAY behind! Maybe after next weekend I can finish it up; I've got an inspection coming up so that I can keep it registered over here, so I have to hurry. Never enough time!

 

Alright! Got it running!

Now, come the questions. I know it needs a tune, but it seems to be really low on power.
I have a torque converter to install, but I don't want to do that until i can renew my inspection sticker this week then I'll install it which I know will make a real difference.

Is the fuel pressure supposed to oscillate between say 40-44 PSI? The car has a slight surge in the idle not much, but I can't tell the exact amount because my tach doesn't seem to be working now! Go figure.

I have the MAT sensor hooked up under the plenum, the CTS in the manifold, the Knock Sensor is in the passenger side of the block, but it isn't hooked up cuz I can't find the plug for it and the one near that area doesn't hook up, maybe it's broke.

Any opinions would be helpful, thanks guys.

 

not having the knock sensor hooked up will cause the ecm to pull back timing and give an engine light so it will be low on power etc.the fluctuation fuel psi could be related to the motor actually hunting/surging a lil.if you have an adjustable regulator i would raise the pressure a lil more to 45-47psi imo

 

Just to update everyone, I have the car running. I need to get it fine tuned and a few small problems worked out. Right now I am trying to switch out the fuel pump which is a PITA. I posted in the General Tech section on a problem I am having after switching to the Walbro unit. Hopefully, I'll get it fixed tomorrow and then can install my torque converter.

These things are never done!

 

Good to hear you are getting closer!!
Do you work on it at a " craft garage " or what's it called-- a place you can
work on your vehicles if you're in the Service??
Good luck on the pump & torque converter!!

 

Actually I did most of the engine work off post, which is against the law here in Germany. But for the converter and fuel pump I am at the garage on post which is cool since I can use the lift and special tools.

 

So, I set the timing at 6* and the fuel pressure at 44psi with the hose off the vacuum source. When I rev the motor it backfires. Also, when I put the vacuum source back to the afpr the fuel pressure drops to around 30-35 on my gauge. Is this normal?

Another thing, when I push on the brakes, they are hard to mash and not very responsive.

Does it sound like maybe I have a vacuum leak somewhere?

I sprayed carb cleaner around the places I thought could be susceptible to leaks and the engine didn't rev. I will try to get a vacuum gauge and test it.

If anybody has any other ideas, please let me know. Thanks everyone!

 

the drop in pressure once the vacuum line is reconnected is normal...Id go a lil higher for fuel pressure.I run 50psi with the vac line off and it drops down to around 43-46psi.

you will need to play with the base timing some more..6* might not be enough on that cam..though Im no expert on this matter.I usually start any sbc with about 8* and it runs fairly good.This will also affect your vacuum and how well the brakes do work.How low is your idle set to?..having it too low on a cammed motor will give this feeling of hard braking and no braking power.Bump the idle to around 8-900rpm and see how you like it.This will increase your vacuum all around and also bump up the fuel pressure.It might run better and not backfire as much.

Just keep inmind..whatever adjustments you make to either the idle or timing to reset the ecm and do the learning procedure or it will fight itself and run worse.My hsr with the xfi280 can idle down to 680rpm..but at that point it is only making 10inches of vacuum and 35psi of fuel pressure..brakes or pretty much non existent and the ecm struggles to stay running..but it sounds god awfully mean lol.

 

Man, I am wondering if I should buy some kind of scanner or something. I hate to just throw money at this thing, because frankly I don't have it, but this thing just doesn't want to act right.

It backfires through the intake and after it warms up I have to pump the pedal to crank it and then hold it down slightly for it to stay running. The fuel pressure is pretty constant while running, but as soon as I shut it off it goes to zero!

I'm getting codes 15, 34, and 42. I didn't have the CTS hooked up so I hooked it up and the 15 went away, but came back again? I think the 42 is from the EST being disconnected when I set my timing, which by the way is now at 12* BTDC. The code 34 is pertaining to the MAF. It's practically new and upon visual inspection it looks fine inside and out. There isn't any air coming in after the MAF. I ordered new relays, but if that doesn't do it, who knows.

I am wondering if any of the other sensors would affect it. They aren't throwing any codes though? The injectors all read the same. Hmmm...any suggestions on this. I appreciate the help.

 

If it's backfiring through the intake there's spark in a cylinder while the intake valve is open.... plain and simple
12 degrees initial timing may be advanced too far. Stock is 6 degrees. Now I don't think that the 6 degrees difference should make that much difference but it's a start....
Maybe your wires are arching across to a other wire.... I had a 1980 Firebird in high school that had all sorts of arching. (I never noticed till I popped the hood one night and it looked like sparklers)

Besides that I'm not sure man.... You've double checked the relationship of the rotor to the cap & proper plug wire placement to proper cylinder....

Geez Dude I don't know

 

This thing is really pissing me off, I just want to drive it already! I know, being my luck, it's something simple that I am just overlooking.

To fill you in, it sounds like it idles fine, except that it surges a little. As soon as I try to drive it, it skips or misses real bad! Undriveable! It wants to die at idle in gear? And that is what it's doing in a nutshell.

So here's the plan. I have a wire or two that was arcing; I'll buy a new set and replace. While I'm at it I was thinking I'd go ahead and replace the distributor just to take that out of the equation. I'm thinking the MSD 8366 or a Pertronix model.

I guess I need to order a new Walbro fuel pump because the new out of the box one I put in doesn't work, the stock one is fine for now, but I'd like to upgrade. Summit wouldn't replace it because it is older than 90 days, I bought in like Nov. 09, and just now got to putting it in and what do you know it doesn't work!! My luck!

I have a Kirban AFPR on the way because my Holley doesn't seem to be working right and I hear that it is a better all around piece. That should take care of that!

My thoughts right now are that there is a problem somewhere in the ignition, or the fuel delivery, or a vacuum leak somewhere. I have checked every possible place for the vacuum leak, so who knows?

If that isn't it, maybe it could be the computer. I have a PCMforless chip, so I will just use the stock chip and see if that changes anything.

After that, the only thing I could think is to get the datalogging and chip burning stuff to look at what is going on!!

If anybody has any suggestion, please tell me what you got. I appreciate the help! This board's help has been immeasurable.

 

I feel your pain, but with all of the upgrades you have made to your motor you are going to have to get into tuning. The pop out the intake you describe is more than likely a tuning issue like accelerator enrichment. If you have means of datalogging you could track down some of your issues. The idle issue could possibly be helped with a good tune as well. I had a lot of similar issues when i made all my upgrades and messed with my car for years, changing parts ect. until i got the EBL system and started tuning. The car runs great now and there is still more tweaking to be done with the EBL.

 

subed to findout what the problems are and info for when i do my head/cam swap. Good luck!

 

Update.
I installed the Kirban and it now holds pressure. I set the pressure to 43 so that is taken care of, but it still doesn't run right!! Won't idle on its on and skips mad crazy! I have a bad battery and weak spark so I am replacing the battery (warranty) and I guess I will reorder more plugs and wires and thinking about the coil and distributor, but will hold off on the last two.

I'm hoping the battery being bad is causing a drain on the system and pulling power from the spark?? Does that sound like a good assumption anybody?

This thing is giving me fits. It seams like there are many small things that I need to do. Can't find the knock sensor wire so it isn't hooked up; even though it was "toned down" in my tune. Need to do the idle relearn, but I can't keep it running to do it. And I need to chase down the charging gremlin.

Thanks for hangin in there with me guys and I'll keep you updated to the progress.

 

LMAO, you got one of those too!!?

 

Yeah, I don't know what I did the first time, but I tried every little test I could think of to make sure the pump was bad. I finally checked if it would pump water out of a cup. It pumped it like gangbusters, so I put it back in the car and walla! It works fine now, but I just wished I could get the rest of the car right!

 

id put money on it that its a lean backfire... need to get a tune before ya tear sometihng up

 

The knock sensor wire is a white wire coming off the even bank wiring, it should have a big connector on the end, not hard to miss but things do have a way of hiding on these cars. I would suggest running to a junkyard and clip one off but thats not really an option for you lol. A prom tune is definetly needed before you can get it to run right. Most of it just sounds like a timing problem, get the knock sensor hooked up first, it plays a role in timing and should at least lessen the effect on the timing.

 

Yeah, I bought a knock sensor connector from Rock Auto. Now not to sound stupid, but where is this even bank wiring? If I could get it hooked up that would make me feel a lot better, seeing as how I would have one less thing to blame for it not running right. I have a PCMforless tune, but I went ahead and bought the autoprom from moates as well; I just haven't began to play with it yet.

 

Hey I saw you have a pcmforless chip, did you get the chip adapter from them? When I did my motor swap it ran like yours, I discovered the chip adapter in mine was one pin off (how it was plugged into the computer) I moved it over one pin and the car ran fine.

Just a thought....

 

Hmm that's a good question. I was going to look into taking the chip out and see if it ran better so I will definitely give this a look!

Thanks!

 

stealthroc was just saying that the knock wire should be on the passenger side of the engine bay, or on the side of the motor with the odd numbered cylinders.

Keep plugging away at this like I am. I'm having all sorts of little gremlins like you but it will be so worth it in the end.

 

Then once you get all the bugs worked out.. you'll rip that 700r4 into pieces.. trust me lol hopefully you wont have the same problem i did.. i had a felpro 1205 intake gasket blow out on the back passenger water passage.. my car kept getting slower and i wasnt seeing any water ..cause i had just changed the oil.. no overheating... then i had a tow bill because the distributor quit turning... there was a solid stream of antifreeze going directly onto the cam gear... so needless to say i have it all apart rebuilding it... wasnt trying to steal ur thread.. just hope ya have better luck that i did....lol

 

Oh man, please don't jinx me like that. LOL! My luck is just that bad too. If anything can go wrong, it will. That's why I meticulously researched every minute part of putting this thing together especially seeing as it was my first time going this far into the engine. I still have doubts, only because it isn't running right. You never know, I could have overlooked something. I've done lots of my own car work and am fairly adept at it so hopefully this thing will be up an running soon. I won't be able to do anything until late in the week since I need to catch up on school though!

 

[quote=86camaroZ;4713703]stealthroc was just saying that the knock wire should be on the passenger side of the engine bay, or on the side of the motor with the odd numbered cylinders.quote]

You just mentioned both sides of the engine LOL, but ya, the passenger side, it should be in the loom with the injector wiring to give you a better idea of where to look. I'm not sure if the color of the wire was changed from 87-89 so I'd check into that. Hows the car coming 86camaroZ?

 

Ahh thanks! Yeah, I just noticed the both sides of the engine thing too! LOL.

 

Update: I didn't want to leave this thread hanging. I got the car running and it runs on its own. I am currently trying to data log and determine what is going on with it. I have some things that I would like to do to it, but I am worried about changing anything right now, because I am trying to ship it back to the states and it should be fine the way it is right now and I don't want to jeopardize that. It should drive and the ebrake works. All I have to do is clean it up and get her to my new home. Wish me luck and I'll keep you guys updated in the future.

 

Cool! Let us know how it works out

 

Scanner to see what everything is doing
Tune from that point on.

Which injectors, what pressure are they rated at?

One thing at a time youll get it sorted out, very rarely on a new motor does it just fire up with everything right and drive off into the sunset, this is just part of it.

 

Oh man aint that the truth!! never had one work out well for me at first startup yet

 

I scanned it for about 20 min a week or two ago, but I haven't posted it or really had the chance to look through it too much. I'll hopefully get it good enough just to drive it for a little distance and then put it on a ship and continue once I get to the states. I appreciate the help.

BTW, the injectors are 26lb rated at 43.5psi Accels. I would like some different one's but for now they'll do. I have to ship it on the 17th so I am kind of worried about messing with it too much. I'm knew to this and don't want to make it worse. Trust me, I could do it! It is just now running fairly good after almost a year of making all these changes!