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Well I have installed and am driving/tuning my new Vortec 350 with cam (Comp Nitrous HP 224/236), valve train (PAC 130lb beehive springs, Scorpion narrow body RR's) and FIRST manifold (thanks Ken). Some initial thoughts:
1. ITS AWESOME!
2. Machine work on the manifold was superb. Everything fit as designed. Ken does an amazing job and his customer service is outstanding.
3. I went with the fuel lines routed to the front of the manifold. This is contrary to their recommendation but the F body fuel line layout being what it is, it makes sense. With the right low profile fittings and using low profile Oetiker clamps there's just enough room.
5. Ken can machine the intake for LS style injectors. I used a set of these, 42lb with data, and they come with EV1 adapters so they plug right into the factory harness connectors: https://www.deatschwerks.com/18u-01-0042-8
These are tuning well for me (I'm on a LINK Storm ECM with our prototype 7165 harness adapter), and I'm idling about 1.7ms which is well into their linear range.
6. If you have a TPI car, make sure you request the "long throttle pin" from Ken. This accommodates the cruise control cable.
8. The intake does fit under the Firebird hood. I have Energy urethane engine and trans mounts and the throttle body just barely kissed the reinforcing frame under the hood.
Feel free to reach out to me if anyone has any questions. I must say the whole experience with Ken was excellent and I highly recommend this intake to anyone. I'll add more to this post once I get the tune more refined and I put it on our DynoJet.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; Apr 28, 2020 at 12:54 PM.
"Ken does an amazing job and his customer service is outstanding."
Almost an understatement lol. Ken has a LOT of patience with customers.
"I went with the fuel lines routed to the front of the manifold. This is contrary to their recommendation but the F body fuel line layout being what it is, it makes sense."
"Ken can machine the intake for LS style injectors. I used a set of these, 42lb with data, and they come with EV1 adapters so they plug right into the factory harness connectors: https://www.deatschwerks.com/18u-01-0042-8"
For my small block, I used Bosh III style, 32lb/hr from https://fuelinjectorconnection.com/
"I'm idling about 1.7ms which is well into their linear range."
I'm idling at around 1.5ms before Voltage compensation. At WOT, max RPM, near 6000, I'm just under 80% INJ PW DC with my set-up (includes INJ PW voltage compensation).
"The intake does fit under the Firebird hood. I have Energy urethane engine and trans mounts and the throttle body just barely kissed the reinforcing frame under the hood."
I have the same mounts. Just touch a bit at throttle body that's it. Of course fitting the strut tower brace was a bit more work.
GD[/QUOTE]
Last edited by SbFormula; Apr 28, 2020 at 09:37 AM.
Love the First. Love to see dyno numbers if you ever get them.
Should have dyno numbers tomorrow. It has a date with my DynoJet after we're done with the paying customers for the day. It definitely feels quick already and my WOT AFR's are in the low 11's. I'm running the stock Vortec truck timing map with about 5 degree added up top. Seems to like that so far. We'll see what it wants.
It's starting to grow on me, but somehow it offends my sensibilities that it looks sorta like a tuned port, but yet very different. Too different for my OCD to handle.
It's starting to grow on me, but somehow it offends my sensibilities that it looks sorta like a tuned port, but yet very different. Too different for my OCD to handle.
It keeps that vintage style look - not plastic so it's not like you dropped in an LS (nothing wrong with that - I have nothing against a nice LS swap), and it's the *right* size for an engine capable of more than modified tuned port can handle. It also tones down the low end torque a little which is welcome when you have so much more engine that you don't need it for the car to feel fast. The stock TPI pulls great on the low end and makes the puny stock engines feel a little bit fun off the line. But when you have real power above 4500 rpm and a proper converter, etc you really don't need that ultra low end anymore. With top end power and a 3k converter I can just bring it up against the converter and the tires break loose just the same.
It's a totally different driving experience. And my first thought after opening it up for the first time was "HOLY S***, I need upgraded brakes IMMEDIATELY!"
It can now accelerate well beyond the ability of the stock disc brakes on my 86 (which are working as well as they can....). I was doing 100 mph by the end of the on-ramp this morning. And I haven't even put it on the dyno yet. Just some basic tuning from data logs and a timing map for a 97 truck with a few extra degrees thrown in around the WOT areas - larger cam, better quench (0.015" shim gaskets), and 92 pump gas.
It's starting to grow on me, but somehow it offends my sensibilities that it looks sorta like a tuned port, but yet very different. Too different for my OCD to handle.
The round/square TB, instead of rectangle, gets me
The round/square TB, instead of rectangle, gets me
Of all the things. The oval TB was seriously
I mean I get it - I get the advantages of having the double throttle blades - makes the throttle less *touchy* while still allowing a lot of airflow..... relatively speaking. The stock TB and TPI in general isn't super at flow. I suppose the oval looked more futuristic back in the 80's. But for plumbing purposes it's kind of a pain in the neck.
I was initially wondering how it was going to feel with the single large TB but it's totally fine. Not too sensitive even with my 86 pedal/cable setup (which I understand was later revised due to being too aggressive?). With the lower torque of the FIRST it actually makes a little less sensitive to light throttle inputs IMO. Not a bad thing at all for my combo.
Nice looking set up! I always liked the look of the FIRST!
Do you mind sharing the part number from the ac compressor?
Sure - that is the popular (I guess?) Sanden conversion. It is the Sanden FLX7 (seven piston) compressor with the Vintage Air mounting kit. Here's the thread on this:
The results are in! Spent 3 hours on the DynoJet with a fellow tuning buddy and got what I think are some pretty respectable numbers for an Iron Vortec roller motor:
The numbers were: 325 RWHP, and 347 RWTQ. The torque is not accurate through the 3k stall automatic of course. Likely higher since this graph is from about 4200 to 6200 where I lifted. Engine has about 50 miles on it. I'll start another thread in the general section on the engine build. I'm curious what others here think of the results, the components I chose, and where I might go from here.
Figuring typical drivetrain losses through a slippery automatic with a high stall converter, this engine is likely very close to 400 HP at the crank. Not bad for a $200 Vortec truck pull-out with 177k on the odometer.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; Apr 29, 2020 at 06:09 PM.
Beautiful setup! Breathes very well. That x-axis shows "Time" but its RPMx1000 yes?
No that actually *is* time. I can put up the RPM graph also, it just looks really funky because half the graph is seven tenths of a second long, while half is 5.5 seconds long. Due to the engine traveling 2500 RPM's in 0.7 seconds to come up against the converter.
If you put 4500 where the 1 is, and 6200 at the end of the pull - that's the RPM range. I'll export the graph with RPM along the bottom also.
I also did a pull at full power using roller speed to calculate RPM. That does interesting things to the torque curve. It showed 529 Ft/lbs peak torque. LOL.
Many folks don't understand that part of a dyno graph is how the operator elects to display the data. RPM would be what I would have used if this were a manual car. But the high stall auto really makes a more pretty graph with this layout. It's the same exact curve, just with the RPM from 2500 to 4500 compressed into the first 0.7 seconds of the pull.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; Apr 29, 2020 at 07:35 PM.
Here's the export with RPM at the bottom. You'll note that it's the same once the converter stalls. It's just a lot of useless graph (unless you're tuning and need the RPM).
Our build is almost done ours is a 383 first performance intake we had ken Port our TB to 76mm ..lpe219 cam by lingenfelter, 113 heads, tuning is done by a Holley hp efi system hoping for similar dyno numbers.
I don't think a strut tower brace would fit with the First performance intake. .
It's been awhile, but I thought I compared the height of the two intakes at the point the brace crosses over and its pretty damn close to the same as I recall. But like I said, its been a good while and I could be mistaken. I always thought the fitment issues on these was not so much overall height, but the way the throttle body sits and is squared vs rectangular that could cause interference in Vettes and such.
BTW, I love that Sandel compressor. Looks like it really frees up some real estate in that area compared to the pancake compressor. Works pretty well with R134a too?
It's been awhile, but I thought I compared the height of the two intakes at the point the brace crosses over and its pretty damn close to the same as I recall. But like I said, its been a good while and I could be mistaken. I always thought the fitment issues on these was not so much overall height, but the way the throttle body sits and is squared vs rectangular that could cause interference in Vettes and such.
BTW, I love that Sandel compressor. Looks like it really frees up some real estate in that area compared to the pancake compressor. Works pretty well with R134a too?
My TB grazes the hood he had to massage the hood a hair to clear...
My TB grazes the hood he had to massage the hood a hair to clear...
Yeah, mine was fairly tight there too. I'll have to dig around a bit. Moved twice, have had 2 new phones, and built a new computer since I put my FIRST on but I am sure I have some pictures comparing them somewhere. I remember being curious at the time because I was wanting to do a brace eventually too. That was on a fully factory engine with headers though. Car is apart now, was in the middle of doing heads and cam etc when life happened and all got put on hold. Looking to get back to it in the next few months again finally though. I miss my car!
Yeah, mine was fairly tight there too. I'll have to dig around a bit. Moved twice, have had 2 new phones, and built a new computer since I put my FIRST on but I am sure I have some pictures comparing them somewhere. I remember being curious at the time because I was wanting to do a brace eventually too. That was on a fully factory engine with headers though. Car is apart now, was in the middle of doing heads and cam etc when life happened and all got put on hold. Looking to get back to it in the next few months again finally though. I miss my car!
The Jegs branded Profiler 195s with a Comp 268XFI and Scorpion narrow body 1.6r rockers. Have the engine pulled now so I could clean things up a bit, replace freeze plugs, paint etc. Also got a TPiS pan I am throwing on at the same time, aluminum water pump, motor mounts, starter and some other odds n ends I am doing. May still decide to do something to the bottom end but not sure yet. I want to build a new one eventually and just have that ready to go over a winter.
Awesome; love it! Surprised to see the torque peak up at 4,700; I would've expected more like 4,400 RPM.
I went with the ls-style injectors, too (Bosch III 36 lbs) from FIC on sale for $329. They like running at 4 or even 5 bar.
I like that deatschwerks fuel pressure regulator; good deal!
Awesome; love it! Surprised to see the torque peak up at 4,700; I would've expected more like 4,400 RPM.
I went with the ls-style injectors, too (Bosch III 36 lbs) from FIC on sale for $329. They like running at 4 or even 5 bar.
I like that deatschwerks fuel pressure regulator; good deal!
Adam
The torque peak is actually about 2500. You can't see it in the graph because the converter stalls after the torque peak. The first graph is accurate but you don't get the RPM because it's a graph over time. The second graph is only accurate once the engine comes up against the converter. I start the pull at 2500 and go to WOT, and you can see in the graph it flashes through that first 2000 RPM climb in a fraction of a second. The two charts are the same pull - just graphed differently. The rest of the graph from 4600 to 6200 takes about 6 seconds and the engine is over 300 HP at the tires for most of that time. This is all dynoed in 3rd gear. The torque peak down around 2500 is almost guaranteed to be well above 400 Ft/lbs. Probably in the 450 ft/lbs neighborhood.
The torque peak is actually about 2500. You can't see it in the graph because the converter stalls after the torque peak. The first graph is accurate but you don't get the RPM because it's a graph over time. The second graph is only accurate once the engine comes up against the converter. I start the pull at 2500 and go to WOT, and you can see in the graph it flashes through that first 2000 RPM climb in a fraction of a second. The two charts are the same pull - just graphed differently. The rest of the graph from 4600 to 6200 takes about 6 seconds and the engine is over 300 HP at the tires for most of that time. This is all dynoed in 3rd gear. The torque peak down around 2500 is almost guaranteed to be well above 400 Ft/lbs. Probably in the 450 ft/lbs neighborhood.
GD
Total misread that graph. Now I'm shocked the torque peak is so LOW with that cam and 350 cubes, but I always forget just how small the vortec ports are compared to what I'm used to. Really cool to see the curve move to the left from the port volume.
It's been awhile, there was some machining involved. Bosch 3's fit but I had a problem with Bosch 4's which are probably shorter and leaked at the top, I ended up using TPI/LT1 injector c-clips at the top and everything works as it should. The oe rails flow sufficient fuel for this 385 and the AFR is discrete. Also needed a custom cable from Bowtie OD for the 700R.
