heres a short description of what i wanna do and what i want n dont want to happen once i decide on body filler... got a 92 camaro...stripped the engine bay and underbody (wheel wells as well). i wanna make it all seemless..basically want it to look like its all one piece of metal once its painted. dont want anything thats gonna crack n somethin that'll last forever...so basically i wanted to know what brand/type of filler to use in order to reach my goal? thanks in advance.

 

rage gold by evercoat, easy 2 work ,good for sculpting, trevor

 

I think the filler named "All Metal" would give you a good chance of achieving what you're looking for. It's stronger than regular filler but doesn't sand as well. So All Metal first for strength and then Rage Gold over that to give you something thats a little easier to sand.
Now ... about that "last forever and won't crack" part ... any flex will crack a seam thats not welded solid. IMHO.

 

Rage is a decent filler that allows a little fleability without leaving a bunch of piholes like the cheap brands. I personally have not seen anything that "last forever"

 

I would not fill anything you cant fix with with a light skim coat. pull any big dents out.evercoat makes some decent products.

 

I have used almost every body filler known to man. I 2nd the "All Metal" and then go to a Rage or evercoat product. I wouldn't expect this to last forever but it should hold up for a while.

 

before u guys read any further..understand that im new to all this...never done this before...so take it easy on me...i know lots of guys that have given me crap cause they think their high and mighty cause they already know this stuff( like their better than me)...well i dont..now that i got that little rant out of the way....here are some pics for reference.... ( http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/k...eaz/camarobay/ )im gonna go through everyones posts and ask whatever questions i have...but basically i have circled the parts that im talkin about (just a few examples).
dont have any need to pull dents or any really deep areas to fill.... the areas that are circled dont have much need for lots of filler...just to make it seamless...there might be one or two areas that ill have to use slightly more filler. now...the first 2 pics...the top layer of metal doesnt stick up higher that about 100 thousands of an inch. n the wheel well...once i get rid of that rubber like stuff (whatever that is) dont think ill need to much filler to fill the gap. now for areas like the forth and fifth pic...im gonna need to get filler up into the gaps and even those spots out...more so the fifth pic. now the last 2 pics are the crappier areas...how would u suggest i that care of those. i know that for the pinch weld area i was thinking of spraying that rust converter stuff then using a thin layer of filler over that. rage gold... i just bought a gallon..heard some good reviews.. y not use rage gold only? you say "All Metal" n then rage over that..so why not then just use only that...yeah might be pain to sand...but how good is it to put one filler over another. you also say use "All Metal" for strength...how so? lastly...i dont mean forever...thats what word popped into my head to describe how long id like it to hold up.....this is my first build and i want it to be around a long time. this car will not be subjected to either rain or snow... i just want something that'll hold up for more than a few months or years... so that like 10 or 15 years or more from now i could look at my work and be satisfied and happy to say... "sweet" it looks just as good as the day i finished it...comments...suggestions and or input...are appreciated? thanks guys.

 

All metal in my experience, is waterproof. Rage isn't. Filler used on an undercarriage kinda needs to be waterproof. I am assuming you are going to drive this thing. I would weld those seams since you have gone this far. You will be happier with the results. If not, definately use all metal and the rage on top of it. Welding is the only thing that I could guarantee would last "forever".

 

thanks for the quick response Nub383... as far as welding...sounds good...only problem is that i've never welded before...so thats out (unless i find someone that can show me how). yes i will drive it but like i said... no rain or snow. the only water thats touching this car is when i wash it....thats it...may sound crazy...but as i metioned before i want this car to b around for a long time. u say all metal is waterproof n rage isn't....then other than rage being easier to sand...y even bother using it then?

 

Using filler in the engine bay you will need to look at heat related issues, especially around the headers. This area will subjected to major temp changes, from sitting over night to going for a drive it could see a 100 degree change in ambent temp. This will accelerate cracking as the filler and metal will expand and contract at different rates. As will the thiner metal verse the thicker metal.

Do you want no seams for show reasons or are you trying to prevent rust? If its rust a good seam sealer and primer/sealer rust preventive paint system would provide for many years (nothing last forever). For show purposes welding is the only way to go, it will be worth the extra money to get someone to tig or mig weld the seams (tig would be best). Then grind smooth and sand, seal primer, (build primer, block, repeat until smooth). Then paint.

 

i hear ya, if theres even a chance it'll crack..then that no good. its a combination of both... i dont plan on the car being behind glass...so to speak... nor have i really thought about shows to take it to.... and as far as rust...yes...i dont even want a speck of rust... ill try to explain myself in a nutshell.... basically when im passionate about something i push things maybe more than i should..but thats because im just very detail oriented...people may ask why it needs to b so perfect, it wont b a show car..so why all the detail.... when i like something....i need to b happy with the finished product....i dont like to half-*** stuff just to get it done... either do it right or dont do it at all.... itll take me a while to see what works and what doesnt....its a learning expierience. i love this forum..its the shiznitch... been to lots of forums and i can flat out say that everyone in this so called family is an awesome bunch of guys... and ill be here to learn and maybe one day help someone with the knowledge i get from you guys.... one other thing... you say. do you know of any welders that i might be able to look at...something that'll be a good product but not suck my wallet dry? i figure ill practice on something other than the car...n when i feel comfortable...ill do it myself... y do u say tig would b best?

 

I would look at some local tech schools most of them have a welding certification course they will teach you to weld, you will have a new marketable skill (if you want) and most of the time you can use the equip.

If not mig is the only cheap way, but if you want absolute perfection tig is the best. You can do it with mig but it will require more grinding to finish it off. However you can prevent rust and still have seams its all about not allowing the two things needed to create rust O2 and H2O (oxygen and water) from getting to the metal. That is what stuff like POR-15 or rust bullet do, they also prevent undercutting by the rust by using chemicals that reduce the chemical reaction capability or oxidation.

If there is rust in between the seamed metal if you seal it up it will not continue to rust but you will have to do it from both sides of the seam and getting a 100% seal is not going to happen in a home garage and I don't think you can get to all of it.

I too tend to over engineer everything and be a perfectionist, but sometimes you have to weigh the cost to benefit.

 

that could be a possibility..the thing with that is that i am starting classes for auto at my community college soon...so i cant do that now... elaborate please... the rust is a minor inconvenience though there really isnt that much if not any... my whole thing about the seems is that basically... i dont wanna see them once its painted. dont know if you looked at the link i posted earlier in the thread...if not check it out... i figure seams are more prone to rust...so welding the them helps out in that aspect... and the seamless part is more cosmetic...for looks...yea its a lot of crap to do for somethin so simple..but for me its worth it. i did consider that..so i was thinking of sprayin some type of rust preventive spray..u know..turns rust black... y u say that?

 

tig is more controlled. It is what you see on like OCC and other custom bike shows. Mig is what most mufler shop use. You can lay down the perfect stack of dimes with a tig, where you have to be a skilled welder to do it with a mig, well actually you need to be skilled with either, tig is just designed for better control. and you are working on some thin metal there. You can get a 110 volt mig for a few hundred a tig will start in grand range. You will probably want gas if you do mig so add a few hundered more as it prevents oxidation in the process. I can weld but I don't consider myself an expert in it, google mig welding and tig welding and read up on the differences.

By perfect I mean air tight and unless you have the ability to magnaflux or some other micro fracture scanning device it will be hard to spot the microscopic air gaps that can allow a certain amount of rust to form in the seam. Now once you seal it up with a rust sealer You will be good for many many years, atleast as long as the paint last.

if your doing the automotive program talk to the teachers and get in good with them one of them will have the skills and a welder to help you out or let you use the schools after hours if they have one. I learned to weld in my high school auto shop.

 

good luck in smoothing them out it makes for a good looking car but a beast if you ever damage it and have to replace metal. the flange seams will have a step but I can't think of a way to avoid that.

I think I am going to black out the under hood when I pull the engine.

when you finish you will definitly need to post finished pictures.

 

pics...yeah i can do that.....not sure when thought....ill let you know... you say you know how to weld...then the question i have is what specs does a...lets say tig welder need to have in order for me to consider getting it? for example... check this link... http://www.welders-direct.com/mercha..._Code=W1003203 so as far as this tig welder... what would u say?

 

Well I can weld but am no where near a expert, so maybe some one can chime in with some better advice on welding.

A proper tig will have a foot petal to control the amperage and therefore heat. In addition to the unit like the you you linked to you will need to get the gas tanks, argon etc depending on the type. The gas will shild the weld from oxygen during its molten stage and prevent oxidation and pitting. I'm no expert in equipment I've just used what I have had access to. I am thinking of buying a flux core MIG where I can do some basic welding at home and not have to have the gas tanks. The one I am looking for will have the ability to do both flux core and solid core/gas MIG welding. Anything fine enough to require TIG I will outsource.

My welding education was the instructor said like this, and I was able to copy him. Next thing you knew I was welding the roll cage in the race car the shop was building. I did learn one thing welding can give you nasty sun burn so always wear gloves,long sleaves and a full face mask.

harborfreight.com has some good prices on welders.

When you weld do small areas and skip around to prevent introducing to much heat in one spot.

 

i actually do have a harbor freight around my house... so i have a few questions... can i use it without the gas? and what do u mean depending on the type? do u think that i could reach my goal by just using a MIG welder? so with a MIG welder u dont need the tanks? what do u mean by that? one other question...harbor freight has so many welders on their site...how do i know what im looking for or supposed to consider buying? help me out please...thanks for the help so far.

 

I think you really need to get some books on welding before this goes too much farther.

TIG welding uses a seperate filler rod and an electrode 'torch' you heat the metal with the hand-held 'torch' and dip the filler rod in the weld puddle. Its like gas torch welding, except using electricity. Its HIGHLY controlled and the finished welds look like a stack of dimes laying on their side (look at fabricated sheetmetal valve covers)

MIG welding is..oversimplified, not really WELDING...think more 'machine operator' than WELDER.
Basically you have a machine that spools out welding wire which is also used as the electrode/torch. The wire is melted into the weld puddle as you go along. The REALLY cheap ones use flux core wire, ehich is FINE for the basics, but theres a lot of 'spatter' that needs to be ground off to make the welds look pretty. You CAN buy add-on kits to use a shielding gas instead of the flux.

Shielding gas on a MIG setup is nice, because it creates a clean controlled environment around the weld puddle which makes for a more precise, cleaner weld bead.

Most 110v wire-feed (aka MIG) welders cant weld things like box tubing or sub frames. I have a Hobart Handler 140 (made by Miller) I got at Harbor Freight which is a GREAT welder. Avoid the Chicago Electric welders.

flux core and gas torch (oxygen acetelyne) welding has its place and is dirtier, but thats how things were done for decades; its still viable, if you dont mind practicing and a lot of hand cleaning

PS flux is a paste/chemical that brings the impurities of the weld puddle to the surface. It must be ground off. The purpose of this is to leave a dense weld puddle (not necessarily thick) free of contaminants. Cleanliness is Godlyness in welding. you want pretty and strong welds? think hospital clean room. An ugly weld can be a strong weld....a pretty weld with voids and impurities in it will ALWAYS fail

Welding is NOT gluing metal together...its fusing metal at a molecular level...there should be almost no loss in structural integrity

 

as far as that goes... i just found out that my uncle knows and works with someone thats been welding for like 20+ years...and that he said his friend would teach me to weld...so i got that covered..
is this the one ur talking about? http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...6073_200306073 so u think this welder will b sufficient enough for what i wanna do?

 

That Hobart is a good welder for lite duty home use. Notice in the specs it has a 20% duty cycle at 90 amps and it's a 140 amp welder. I don't know what the duty cycle would be if you were using it at max power. Google duty cycle for welders. It's a formula that tells you how many minutes you should be able to weld in a certain amount of time. Seems to me the time they use is only a few minutes and this welder is only good for 20% of that at 90 amps, before you would need to let it cool off. It does say it has an automatic resetting thermal shutoff, so you probably wouldn't burn it up any time soon.

 

yeah..i tried looking for the duty cycle...math aint my strong point...but i figured this...it might take me twice as long...maybe even more to get it done..but dropin over a grand on a welder isnt in my budget right now...considerin i dont have a steady cash flow comin in... not knowing about what welder to look at makes it that much more of a pain tryin to find one...the max im looking to spend is $600-700...that were my budget caps me.... lite duty? how light duty work are you thinking?

 

i have a hobart and it has worked flawlessly ever since i bought it about 3 or 4 years ago, and light home use i think he is reffering to Commercial things, not Industrial type.

 

o and i also used Rage by Evercoat on my car and i couldnt ask for any better results.

 

you may want to start a new post on welding up seams instead of continuing the body filler thread as the welders on the board may not look at this thread.

TIG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_tungsten_arc_welding
MIG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_metal_arc_welding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Inert_Gas