Hi,

I have a Camaro with rear end rot (quarters, inners, floors). The front is clean.

I recently purchased a super clean 85 IROC but the front end is smashed up.

What I want to do is use both cars to make one good car.

Before we get into the "it's not worth it", this car has extreme sentimental value to me as it was the first car I bought when I was 16. I have a lot of great memories and it means a lot to me to rebuild.

So, does anyone have experience cutting both cars in half in the middle of the floor and welding the the two good pieces together. This would be made extra solid with the addition of subframe connectors. The cut down the middle would not be anywhere near the subframes.

Or, could I cut the front end off the damaged car and reweld in a new subframe complete. The front end damaged car is very damaged....The strut towers are all bent and the fender supports are ripped off the car...however firewall back it is perfect.

Any other suggestions, comments?

 

Hello simzjr1!!

I haven't done it myself, but my father-in-law had a 73? Buick Century that some friends of the family had bought from him to do the exact same thing to!!

The cut was made just behind the front seats, and ran IIRC from just in front of the door jamb across the car to the other side, up and over the roof, to the other door jamb!!

Turned out perfect, it's all just measurements, and welding, as long as you know what your doing with the "fire stick" you can do miracles!!!



I'd think that your job would be easier than the 73? Buick Century, as you said the firewall is good, so it would be just replacing the front "framework"!!

 

Thanks for the reply!

Yes thats what I was thinking to...I would just double and triple check measurements...get the exact wheel bases and make exact measurements and cut right in behind the front seats...I don't think it would take much as it is right in between the front and rear subframes (floor supports) and would just be a simple cut along the rockers and then right through the floor...what I would do is weld supports with casters on both sides of the cut that way I can roll the old piece out and roll the new piece in (also dont have to worry about the car falling once cut in half)...

Any other thoughts?

 

Hello simzjr1!!

I just re-read your OP, and you would be doing the exact same as what I had described, somehow, I got thinking that you were replacing the front on the super clean 85 IROC, but it's the other way!!

The caster idea is good!!

Are you a miracle worker with a "fire stick"???

 

I wouldn't say miracle worker but I'm pretty handle with the MIG....I'll post pics once I start....I know that this would usually weaken the structure but since the cut is in the floors and im joining the subframes with SFC...I should be good to go...

 

Hello simzjr1!!

Do you have a plasma cutter??

They make a pretty smooth cut!!!

Good luck!!

Post lots of pictures!!

 

Yeah, I'm anxious to see this. I'm not trying to do this myself, but i think it would be interesting to watch. I would LOVE to actually be there in person. Maybe i would learn a thing or two.

 

Honestly that would be frakin awsome to see but there it way to much unneeded work involved. i dont no what your rotted car looks like but its prob. alot easier to just fix the rottt. All in all i would say go for it but remember the work cut out for you.

 

with time money and a welder anything is possible lol. i have never done it personally but i have a friend who is an awsome body guy and he did 2 into 1 datsun 210's one time. and id stop by the shop n check it out as it went. he pretty much just wacked the floor at back of doors and cut the floor like a few inches longer on other car, wacked it at the windshield pillars slide floors a little bit inside of each other same with windshield post ( and i think he did some kind of reinforcing on the bottom but i dont remember what he told me he did) then tacked em, drilled holes and " plug welded" the holes shut and then seamed it all up. it was un noticable when he was done.

 

if I understood the original post correctly, I'd say it will be WAY easier to just swap the front clip from the rusty car onto the wrecked car. That is what I would much rather do than cut the floor and roof in half and try to get it to line up without sagging or anything. You can drill spot welds and gently remove the front clip and put the new front on just like the factory would have done. Then you'll have no chance of issues with weatherstripping, door fitment, or anything else like that. I'm not saying you cant put two halfs together, but I'd really rather just swap a front clip if it were me.

 

i agree i would rather swap a front clip but if he wants to cut a car in half i say cool go for it and post some pics of it too lol

 

My father did this in the body shop in our back yard with a Tauras. None of his auto body skills rubbed off on me though....lol

 

I have "clipped" many cars over the years. I always "sleeve" rockers and windshield posts then lap the floor. Even seen some of them wrecked again. Stagger cuts through posts and rockers as much as possible. Measure everything possible but the best test is to shut the door! It's not that tough, not as bad as trying to straighten crushed front rails or just replacing the rails.

 

I still agree with others, it would be easier to swap the front ends if the damaged parts are mainly bolt on.

If there's more damage than that I would definitely prefer to try and remove metal by subframes as close to the factory as possible instead of just cutting the cars in half.

If you're set on it though, and it sounds like you are, I think I would stagger my cuts... that is not take a clean cut through the center, but maybe save part of the roof to keep from having a weld going right through the center of it and definitely z the rockers the same way you would z a frame if you were shortening it.

Also, make damn sure you weld up all kinds of braces BEFORE you make your cuts to keep the whole thing from collapsing or sagging out of square before you can weld them back together.

Lay down masking tape and mark off your cuts before cutting so you have a clear idea how everything is going to line up.

I think you're asking for a lot of difficulty. I'm not saying you can't do it, but there are tons of variations between bodies, especially when you consider the cars histories and the fact that one has been in an accident. To make a close cut on both cars that fit together nicely into one is gonna require a lot of measurement and possibly some tweaking of the metal.

Mathius

 

I agree after hearing posts that i may be more work than required.

I am also liking the idea of removing the front subframe on both cars and swapping...has anyone ever done this?

Getting the frame where it attaches to the floor should be the easy part. just drill out spot welds and reweld...however along the firewall sounds very tricky as I'm not sure how the inner wheel wells are joined to the firewall...

Anyone have experience with this?

Thanks

 

It's not worth it, just kidding. In all seriousness though the Camaro with the rear end rot is the one with the sentimental value right? That's the way I understand it anyway if that's the case wouldn't it be easier to replace the rear quarters and floor pans? Personally I think this would be much better for a couple of reasons

#1. The sentimental value, wouldn't you rather drive the car you love instead of just the front subframe?

#2. Replacing the rear quarters and floors is pretty common (well more common than replacing the front subframe) and well I have never done it the people that I've talked to that have done it all say it's not as bad as it sounds. And you already have all the parts you would need. You can replace these parts easier than a subframe I would think.

#3. Another thing I would consider is what if you don't do something quite right? I know you say you will double and triple check your measurements but like any project once you get going on it and it starts going well you want to keep going and don't want to stop and this is where mistakes happen. But if you mess something up with the rear quarter what's the worse that could happen? Worse case scenario I can think of is the quarter panel flying off. I don't think this could ever happen but if it did it's not catastrophic. However if something is messed up with the front subrame what's the worse that could happen? Essentially your car could break in half, not quite half but I think you get the picture. Floor pans can be tricky too but from what I've understood just make sure the car is braced real good well you are replacing them and like you said SFCs are a great idea afterwards.

#4. Kind of relates to the same reason but I would think seriously about alignment issues, if you were off even 1/16th of an inch I would think that would be very tough to get everything else strait maybe not but it would be easy to get off by that much.

Sorry if I confused you even more but I guess it's another option to think about, let us know what you decide.

 

When I finally gave up my 85' Z28 after it was totaled the guy I sold it to sliced it in half and put the front end on an 87 IROC. I used to have pics, but they got lost in one of my many moves over the last 12 years.

I do know that he cut behind the front seats and on the roof just behind the windshield and used small square tubing to brace everything during the transition. Also there was a TON of welding going on that weekend lol.

 

Hello simzjr1!!

Bite the bullet, and bring both cars back to life!!





One needs a front "clip"!!

The other one needs a little TLC in the rear!!





P.S. Post a picture or two of what you have to work with!!

 

You are right...The more I think about it...the easier it will be to just replace the rear end (quarters, inners etc..)

I risk to much to my "baby" by cutting her in half. Plus, as one poster said, I want to ride around in as much as the original as possible.

Many is no real issue here, I will spend way above what the car is worth, but nobody is in this hobby (esp third gens) for money. Only true car guys understand.

I will post pics as soon as I get home from Afghanistan (Dec 12).

On a second note, what I plan on doing is cutting the rear quarter out but at the inner fender, cut it out there, thereby keeping the factory bond at inner wheel lip. How do I do seperate it from the trunk well drops (where the rear quarter bonds to).

Get ready for a flood of pics!

 

Hello simzjr1!!

This is off topic but, you mentioned that your in Afghanistan........you in the forces??? Reg or Reserve???



I'm not sure about the cutting of the rear wheel well, as I've never had to do it!!

There is a member "Twin_Turbo" he seems to be pretty good with the "fire stick", and he had a complete pulling apart of his IROC and did some welding on it also, check out the "Pulling apart my 1987 IROC" in the members Camaros thread!!

 

If you're not by your car, then you have nothing BUT time to do research. is your friend.

There are some informative posts on quarter panel replacement. Here's a good one here: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/body...-i-find-2.html

I know there was one prior to that with better pictures, but I couldn't find it. I don't have the time to look.

Replacing a quarter panel is almost as big a deal "structurally" as cutting and welding the car in half. The difference is, you're going to have a much better fit, since its more or less the way the factory did it. I would still see about welding some braces in place before you drill out all those spot welds. You may not be able to do everything "factory" depending on your damage. Also, from what I read when TomP was doing this, some of the spot welds are damn near impossible to get to to break loose. I know Joe (LT1Guy) once suggested that flanging the panels might prove easier, although where the best place to do this is, is something you'd have to ask him if he's still around.

It should be a lot easier to keep the rear end from flexing than trying to keep the whole middle section of the car straight and not end up making your car a 1/4" longer on one side or something else just as goofy. Still, like I said I would still brace the car first before making my cuts or you may end up doing some crazy prying and muscling to get the spot welds to line back up to plug weld. You also have the added bonus of only having one exposed weld (the one where the quarter panel meets the roofline). Make sure you take your time on that one and don't warp the panels.

Make sure you seal the **** out of your welds. Rust doesn't just come from exposed panels, it comes from anywhere bare metal can contact air, which can be inside a tube, in a gap in a lap joint, anywhere. Not just where road debris hits the car. Lots of panels start rusting from the inside out, long before they're ever exposed to the road.

Mathius

 

Yes I'm in the Forces...Reg....Currently deployed on 5-10.

I never thought the quarter would be such a structural component.

I was thinking of patching as most of the rust on the quarter is on the wheel well lip...my only concern is keep the body line mid way up the quarter...if i cut and weld I assumed that I would not be able to get the body line exact...

The big areas of rust are in the trunk extensions.

Frame isn't that bad...but will need some work...

Has anyone cut through the body line and then welded over it with success? (By body line I mean the bend that is lower middle on the quarter panel).

 

I believe from reading through a thread about the quarter panel replacement what he did was take a jack and jack up on the frame just so it supports it before doing any cutting, also if I remember right someone had said to leave the car sit on the ground since when you jack it up the car will flex a little and if you weld the panel on that way when you set the car back down things will be off.

Also Mathius brings up a good point about panels rusting from the inside out. I would also paint the back of the panel before you install it (I don't believe the factory did this). It won't be perfect since when you weld it the paint will burn off but it will be better than nothing. Good luck.

And thanks for all you do it really is appreciated

 

I wouldn't advise trying to replace the front rails. It would be much easier to clip the car. That way the factory welds are undisturbed. The seams where the rockers and posts are joined can be easily hid while still being as strong if not stronger than original.

Which ever way you go, several companies make weld thru primer that will help prevent rust later.

Can someone explain a Z cut in a roof. Never seen anyone silly enough to cut through the center of a roof and weld it back. Had to be full of bondo.

 

They do make a weld through primer specifically for painting panels before welding (as whitegold said above). I would just shoot that around the areas you're welding and paint around the rest. It has a high zinc content that lets you weld directly over it. Welding is always going to destroy any paint you lay down once the heat gets in, but the weld through primer is still the best you're gonna get. You're still better off sealing it after though.

As far as the quarter panel being structural... it's the biggest structural component on the car. Granted there is an inner quarter panel skin, but you're still talking about a panel that covers a good 1/3 of one side of your vehicle and this is a unibody construction.

Mathius

 

Hello simzjr1!!

I'm a former Reg Force guy, 1979 - 1999, after ten years (2009), I re-joined, in the P Res, trying to get to Afghanistan, to do "the job", but what an ordeal that's been!! I was called up in July, for the fall Roto, but my employer would not support it!! My employer would support a three month TAV, if I was called for that!!

Last thread Hi-Jack, I promise!!



There are more, and more, thirdgen body panels, and frame components, either being made, or available on the aftermarket scene!!

You can get trunk pans, rear frame pieces, floor pans, etc.....plus the good parts that are available at the local junk yards!!!

I would do the rusty panel replacement, myself, piece by piece, just to keep it relatively simple, as opposed to the "big" cut!!!

 

I think it would be A LOT easier and much less time consuming if you just fix/replace the quarters and wheel whells. It would also leave the IROC to live. You will have to take out ALL the lines, wiring, driveshaft, rear end, suspension, side roof weatherstripping (and buy new), drip rails...and whatever else is in the way. then grind down all of that welds and might use up the whole damn spool, then you'll have to use filler. oh man.
you don't have to do have that with quarters. please just fix what you have and save yourself and the other camaro.

 

my father has done the job a couple of times, dayly drivers cars not for racing, one time a patroll of the highway police,

 

Just my input on this topic. I work at a body shop and am certified in body repair and refinishing, but more than that i have been doing this for a while and know what im doing.

Its something you can do, but i wouldnt even begin to try it if you have never done body work before.

Youll forever have a messed up alignment, weight distribution and numerous other problems.

In a shop we use computers and programs that costs thousands to correctly check these alignments and make sure everything is set up properly. dont be a typical thirdgen mul-let dude and think its "just" an ol' sawzall cut, little weld here.. little weld there, and a roll of duct tape. Youll hurt yourself and possibly someone else on the road.

Heres something to go by when working on a car, that no fool can tell me im wrong.

If you work on a car at all.. do it right, or dont do it at all.

Plan to spend quite some time in some research and help from some professionals before ruining 2 cars completely.

no forum or google search will teach you, and no real body man would sit here and expain how to do something like this. So make some friends that do this type of work... professionally (and maaco isnt professional)


( cant believe the correct spelling for the word mul-let in this forum is automatically ***'ed out haha)

 

Never really heard of a z-cut in the roof. I would have cut it off at the a-pillar and weld it back the same way.

Mathius

 

I've never heard of a Z cut period. I-Car and most manufactures in the late 80's recommended a sleeve twice as long as the widest part of the rail being sleeved. By the late 90's it was a sleeve 3 to 4 inches long. Now some manufactures don't want a sleeve at all. All cuts were to be made straight at 90 degree angle whenever possible. Never a mention of a Z cut.

dtk is right. It's not a job you can learn from these forums. It can be done without experience but it'd be much better if a experienced body man was there to guide you. Without seeing the cars I'd clip it just for the fact you disturb less factory welds.

BTW, after I cut the roof off of my car it didn't sag until I got inside the car and bounced a little. Came right back into place when I got out. Had both quarters and the rear body panel cut off of cars before and they didn't fold up. Even drive them around the shop to the frame machine. It's good to think of all panels on unibodies as structural but the skins are minor panels. Ever seen a Saturn without the skins. Look like most other unibodies. I'd hate to think those plastic panels were structural.

 

try this thread with pics for quarter panel replacement https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/body...ter-panel.html

 

If I understand what you mean by "sleeving" then I can see where it's less than desirable. The problem with sleeving two items the same size is that you either have to fabricate your own sleeves like a coupler or you have to distort one of the sides you're combining in order to get it to fit inside the other.

Z cut is hard to describe in words... it's basically a type of offset cut that they claim is a stronger joint. I won't testify whether or not it's actually stronger. I was always taught that once you weld something the weld joint should be stronger than the parent metal so where you make your cuts doesn't effect your weld strength if you ask me unless there's some reason you can't get to the joint to weld it conventionally. Personally I think they advocate using a z-cut because it has a bigger weld area and that way if their welds are sh*t then theoretically it wouldn't be as bad.

But anyways... a z-cut. Typically this refers to the frame, but it would work in the case of the rockers as well... Lets say your frame is 3" tall. You need to remove a 10" section.... or in the OP's case, he's going to overlap the two chassis 10" at the rocker.

Instead of just making two straight vertical cuts removing a 10"x3" from the frame, you take two 10"x1.5" cuts out of the frame and offset the cuts so one part of the frame sits on top of the other. Then you weld them up and use fish plates if desired.



You're talking about almost a 10 year span from when the third generation f-body was conceived in 1982 and when plastic panels became common on vehicles, so they're engineered completely different. On a saturn chassis, you have everything boxed in in the rear of the vehicle,





whereas on a thirdgen f-body, if you remove the quarterpanel, you're not going to find full skins or boxed sections, you're going to find thinner flat panels that are all designed to work in conjunction with one another. If you look at the picture below, he saved the top of the quarter panel, the back of the quarter panel, and the bottom of the quarter where it would wrap around the bottom of the car and bet spot welded. These little strips may not look like much, but they hold the structural integrity in place, whereas removing all of that puts the whole back corner of the car in question, particularly with the hatch opened.



Also, any flex can turn into a serious situation if someone is a beginner like you said and doesn't know to take proper measurements to make sure the chassis comes out straight. A 1/4" angle cut at the beginning of the vehicle can turn into a foot by the time you take measurements at the end of the car. Just like if you were to try to lay down straight wall studs in a house. You can't just measure one end and say you're within a 1/16" because you could still be out 6" at the top (which of course should be visually obvious, but I'm just trying to illustrate a point). A better example would be laying down sheet metal panels, say alucabond or just plain corregated sheeting. If you took a 12" level and made a horizontal line to hang your panels and then went to the end of that line with your level and extended it 24", all the way down to the end of the building you'd have a huge drop or lift. That's why they take a measurement with a tape and use a chalk line.

Mathius

 

great info!!!!

 

I know you're leaning towards fixing the rear of the car now, but I just found your thread today and thought I'd chime in on the front clip work. When I got my 92 the PO had fallen asleep at the wheel and gone off the road and through a mailbox post. I had to replace the entire front radiator support along with the strut tower, upper fender support, and the first 12-15" of the frame rail on the driver's side. There were about 50 spot welds I had to drill out, most of them in the side of the firewall behind the door.

There are a couple pics in my VBGarage showing how the car looked when I trailered it home. I did 99% of the work myself. The only part I didn't do was the welding of the frame rail because I had just taught myself to weld and wasn't very confident in my skills. I had a friend who is a really good welder do the frame rail and I welded everything else. I have been working my own cars for years and have done some bodywork, but never any welding.

I bought a welder and taught myself just so I could bring this car back(that and I have always wanted to learn). I took a ton of measurements before making any cuts, and had the JY cut the donor piece larger than what I needed so I could trim it down to fit. On the frame rails, I left the replacement one a couple inches longer and slipped it inside the existing rail on the car. I then welded up the seam, and used the spot weld cutter to put a few holes in the rail on each side and plug welded them up as was suggested by another poster here.

That was 2007, and I've been driving the car in the summers since '08 with no problems. I've had no problems with the alignment or any other issues related to the repairs. Not counting the 3 months it took me to learn to weld, it took me just over 9 months to get the car back on the road. I worked on it 3 nights/week for about 3 hours each night.

 

Glad it worked for you. Good post. Slipping rails over one another is an approved way in most cases. The only thing about sleeves is you get a nice smooth finish. Undetectable. Sounds like a good fix for your case but as you know by now drilling out those spot welds is a PITA. I've just found it easier in some cases to clip them, just depends on the amount of damage. My old 84 had the right rail shoved back in the floor about an inch after the wreck. Wouldn't have fixed it any other way but clip. Found donor car instead and swapped everything usable, including the roof.

 

Mathis, thanks for the info. Got any actual experiences you can share?

 

There's nothing wrong with doing the front clip vs. doing the rear quarter panel. But he hasn't really shown any pics of the damage on either car at this point to get a better educated solution to his problems.

Myself I was simply trying to get him to look at removing and replacing parts at the factory attachment points to remove engineering from the equation. You don't have to worry about the best weld joint to use or the best place to make your cuts if you're removing everything and putting it back the same way the factory did it.

Mathius

 

I agree. When I did my Camaro, I kept as many of the factory weld points as I could. It also helped with lining things up since they were almost exactly in the same spot on both my car and the donor pieces. The only places I had to cut and measure were the frame rails.

I agree that some pics would be very helpful

 

Hello All!!

I'd like to see some pictures also, but remember, the car is in New Brunswick, Canada, and the OP is in "BF" Afghanistan until Dec 12th!! (as per post #19)



Hopefully, once he gets back on ground in Canada, and starts his disembarkation leave, he will have a bit of free time on his hands to post some pictures!!





P.S. He's probably preparing to come home, as we speak!!

 

Well I found this post again and he should be home now, so any pics? I would love to see what you have done or hear what you are planning.