Saculia

iTrader: (1)

The time has come for me to address the peeling paint and small dings and dents as well as a few spots of surface rust here and there on my 91 formula.

I want to do this right, so any sound advice as to what I should and shouldn't be doing is welcomed and would be very appreciated. This is the first time I am doing body work and paint, so I am a big time newbie.

I have been doing a bit of reading and a bit of work and want to share what I plan to do, what I have done so far, and what I need to do but need advice on. So please bear with me as this is going to be a fairly long thread.

My 91 formula is for the most part a straight body car except for a small dent, about a couple inches, at the front top corner of the passenger fender, a bent rocker panel at the bottom due to improper jacking by the previous owner, and a small door ding here and there from people's doors in parking lots. It also has a little bit of surface rust along the pinch welds of the rocker panels. The white paint is pealing badly, looks like a cheap Maaco job with a lot of over spray.

My goal is to take as much of the body a part as possible, (hood, fenders, bumpers, doors, hatch, etc.), fix the body so that it is dent free and everything lines up correctly, sand everything to bare metal, and primer and paint.

So far I have done a good bit of the taking things apart. This started when I took the weather stripping off so that I could weld the corners where the roof meats the C pillar due to cracks (I am also a novice with a MIG welder).
I have removed a good bit of the interior panels, headliner, the rear wing, hood, head lights, front bumper cover and bumper support. I have also almost completely taken out the dent on the front fender with a hammer and a dolly, but it would still probably need a little bit of bondo to make it nice and smooth (this is a first for me so I am not too good with the hammer and dolly).

I have been keeping a good track of things, such as nuts and bolts and fasteners and am at the point where the fenders need to come off so that I can fix the dent in the rocker panel. So here are the questions I have so far.

Should I sand everything to bare metal now and primer with epoxy primer before applying body filler, and then apply the filler on top of the primer? My goal was to do the body filler first and then spray the epoxy primer, followed by a primer surfacer, and the base coat and clear coat. However, as of recent I have been reading about doing it the other way around. I seem to be getting some conflicting information about this.

Any help and suggestions about how to go about this would be very appreciated as I have zero experience doing this.

Here are some pictures I took of welding the cracks between the pillars and the roof.

Saculia

iTrader: (1)

Here are some pictures of the car being taken apart.

radical82

Two schools of thought on the prime or fix first---don't know who's right. PPG rep I visited with sez it doesn't really matter either. I usually do the filler first then epoxy prime, unless it's a car that I get media blasted. Then, I epoxy prime first and do the filler later... I use whichever method is going to leave bare metal exposed for the least amount of time.....

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

looks like you used flux core when u welded the hard top corners. If you did dont bother even going any further on that section. Flux core is horrible and it spits and creates pourus welds. Basically down the road (prob a year or so) and you will start to see the paint bubbling up, this is from the pores in the weld which will trap condensation/water and rust, causing rust and the paint to bubble up and then flake off. If you going to do all this and get the car ready for paint u might as well do it right and do it once or youll be kicking yourself later.... trust me!

dig it all up, use solid MIG wire and 75% argon/25% CO2, get a good weld and prime it, then go over with putty (word of advice dont use puddy if its going to be more than 1/4" thick). Also getting a good brand putty with reinforcement fiberglass fibers will be a stronger putty than just regular putty. I say prime first then putty bc putty is not water proof believe it or not. I prepped my car for paint in 2days and used flux core on a couple of spots, even after grinding it down and priming the putty its bubbling up 1 year later. I also had the crank in the hard top in the upper corner of the door openings.... after you fix this you should consider subframe connectors, bc that crack will return bc the body is flexing too much (metal gets weaker if you keep flexing it) so your stock unibody is weaker then when it was new), fix the crank and install subframes so the crack doesnt return.

Saculia

iTrader: (1)

You are correct. I used flux core wire to weld this. Unfortunately the MIG welder I have does not have provision for hooking up inert gas to it. I ended up grinding down the welds and applying body filler. Do you think that if I ground down the body filler to bear metal again and put something like por 15 would prevent the bubbling you are talking about? Otherwise I am going to have to find somebody that can weld that for me in which case, I can't even begin to think how I am going to re-expose the crack again. And I thought I had at least that part covered.

I am planning on installing the alston subframe connectors from Top Down Solutions before the car gets on the road again. This way I would minimize the chance of the cracks re-appearing.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Sorry u got just a flux core welder... basically u just wasted money (not trying to sound mean but they are basically worthless esp when you want to do stuff like what your trying to do). Honestly i would look into the eastwood welders. they are having crazy sales! I did alot of research and for the price they are very nice. I convinced my dad to get one over a lincoln. He got the eastwood 175, for 500$ he got the welder 220V, mig gun, mig wire, all gas hookups, regulator, come extra tips, ALSO he got a frigin spool gun! for aluminum welding with aluminum wire in it already. lol i mean this thing comes ready to roll! Not to mention a 3 year no hassle warrenty, all for like 500$ and bc i we get car mags i found him a coupon for free shipping/handling so he saved 100$. thats a great deal when a comparable lincoln will cost him 1200$ish and not inlcude the spool gun. Again this is not a cheap welder and eastwood basically took the lincoln and a miller and took what they liked about both and made there own, with some of there own touches.

even this one would be great for you and it runs a 110V, but i personally like 220V better. only 300$!
http://www.eastwood.com/mig-welder-1...5a-output.html

this is what we got
http://www.eastwood.com/175-amp-mig-...spool-gun.html

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

the amount you would spend on someone welding for you and then having the alston subframe connectors installed can easily cover the cost of the welder and you could do it yourself. I believe the alstons are weld in, and i wouldnt trust anyone to weld for me unless they are great.

I actually live 30min from the POR15 headquarters lol... i love some things from POR15, there regular POR15 works ok... most of the time when it comes off it comes off in huge sheets (not something you want to happen under a paint job) I love there engine enamel and im trying there POR20 header paint right now. I wouldnt POR15 it, redo it so its right is my .02

also if your ordering from TDS u should get there wonderbar, i have it and its great. Before installation check the steering box area for the mounting bolts for cracks (if there are cracks weld them up before install. The wonderbar with poly swapbar bushings and endlinks made a very noticable difference in how my front end handled.

rich5

I have welded that same crack on my car about 4 times, the last i drilled and rewelded but it came back after i finished paint. i think the car flexes to much. cant think of the name for the life of me but the "frame rail supports/ connector" should help, and for what custom black bird said about the rust is true, i have a small bubble there now and its been less than a year.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

the frame rail supports/connector are what we call subframes. Many companies make them. the Alstons are the only inboard ones and usually work better when they are installed with another "perimeter" type set of subframes. UMI , spohn make some good ones. Installing just the Alstons will help but think of them as being installed at the center of the flexing, they help but they still will twist bc of the location and the forces that are trying to twist the car. Perimeter style subframes allow the subframes to work with more "leverage" being that they are pushed out towards the outer most part of the cars "frame". If you notice the rockers on the 3rd gen have the thickest steel/most overlapping of steel. This is GMs attempt to add rigidy to the cars unibody.

the ultimate in subrame strength would be to install the alstons and UMIs/spohn if you dont want to fabricate anything. otherwise a custom set of subframes would be cheaper and prob work much better if designed right. I have 2 sets of subframes on my car that i made along with a 8pt roll bar.

Saculia

iTrader: (1)

I already have the wonder bar for my car and it is installed. The welder I ended up getting about a year ago for a different project. It is a Lincoln MIG welder, but it is one of the entry level welders that doesn't have provisions for using inert gas. It is a small, 110 volt 90A welder. It is what I could afford at that time.
Yes, the alston SFCs are going to be welded but I am also going to bolt them in as well for an extra precaution.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Just stating that perhaps finishing the body work isnt as important as getting the work done correctly. Either get a better welder and do it yourself or have someone else do the work (but that cost if going to go up fast). it would be cheaper to get a better welder with gas than having to have the car repainted and new body work in a year bc u cant stand the bubbling/cracks.

good luck wit the body work! dont mean to come across as a ***** but it is wat it is... pop for the welder now and pay some more now or get ready to pay more later when u want it redone.

Saculia

iTrader: (1)

I appreciate your advice. You are not coming across as a *****. I will look into getting a welder that has the capability to use gas. How would you go about removing the welds I have already made without creating a bigger mess?

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

depends on how much spatter and how bad the weld job was. Also depends on what kind of angle u can get on the weld. Ur prob going to make a bigger slit than was there originally... and if i know flux core then your weld prob didnt even penetrate completely so it might be easier to remove than you think. I can also see the areas where you welded and stopped.... (these are the areas that will bubble. I would try to see if u can follow the crack and use a thin cutoff disk that way the cut will only be like 1/16-1/8" wide. Or you could just try to do the best you can without making a mess and then reweld it.

Also with cracks your suppose to drill the end of the crack with a bit to get rid of the stress fracture, then weld it. Bc welding a crack straight on still doesnt address the stress crack that leads the crank (causes the crack to continue) and it could crack again starting at that point.

Of course you need to get all that putty off before. make sure the area is very clean before (use a wire brush to make sure) then if u can get some weld through primer (youll love this stuff later on and u might be able to use it on the crack (depending how big u get it). Another thing might be to cut a section out and weld in a patch panel with thicker steel? that way its even harder for it to crack in the corner... kinda like reinforcing the corner. just a thought.

85Irocket

I just bought a 220v mig welder from harbor freight. It's set up for flux core or Mig and it works great. Much better welds with gas than flux core, and it was only $300.

FNFAL308

iTrader: (1)

I have a small Lincoln 110 that is perfect for sheet metal. I didn't know they made one without gas hookups.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Could have gotten a eastwood 135amp and it would have been 20x better than that harbor frieght. Cost only 299$ i believe. Im using the eastwood 175amp which is a 220v it its worked great on sheet metal so far. Came with an aluminum spool gun free. my dad just got the eastwood plasma cutter and TIG 200 for $999 special they were having.

Ive done the harbor frieght welders and Ive always had problems with them. I had to rebuild the hand gun and replace the nylon line that the wire runs in when they go bad. I opted for the twelco steel replacement tube thats found in the better welders like lincoln,miller etc. If i had to do it again i would go with the eastwood first time around.