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Epoxy or Urathane paint? Which way to go?!?

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Old Mar 26, 2015 | 06:34 AM
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Epoxy or Urathane paint? Which way to go?!?

I will be painting my car in the next year or so. I am doing a bunch of other body work right now to get ready for it. The car with be a weekend toy, going to car shows, but not be a show car, just an around town fun ride. I say this because I am not looking for a show car finish, something near factory is fine with me. I am painting the car stock color Artic White.

What paint type should I go with? I also because I am almost done with the engine bay and would like to get the correct primer for it.

From what I have read, I should go with urethane paint. It goes on easier and a stronger...

Is this true. I have never painted anything before. I just used bondo for the first time last month, so please excuse my ignorance when it comes to body work/paint.

Thanks!
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Old Mar 26, 2015 | 07:36 AM
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Re: Epoxy or Urathane paint? Which way to go?!?

I'm no PRO,..... but if your going with a solid color I'd use a single stage Urethane top-coat. Better IMO than a base/clear Urethane because your a novice painter and you will be able to lay it on heavy and wet-sand it till flat before buffing to a shine. Then, it can be re-buffed over and over again years after to maintain the shine without concern of buffing thru the a clear-coat.

You can't talk about paint until you figure out the primer, Basically:

Epoxy seals better; doesn't fill very well.
Urethane doesn't seal as good; fills better.

Here is something I found on the web that helped give me a better understanding before my first back-yard paint-job......


Hold on here now buckaroo. We are not talking "adhesion" at all.
When talking adhestion, with urethane vs epoxy, epoxy will kick urethanes **** big time.

An application of epoxy over that bare metal and THEN apply urethane for a "filling" primer to block.

Because of it's good adhesion and corrosion resistance epoxy and then paint would be my choice for the window channel.

Brian
“Basics of Basics” Paint technology
By Brian Martin

There are many different types (or more correctly, technologies) of products you can use in the restoration or repair of your vehicle. Some have a variety of uses while others are very limited with only a few of specific uses. Proper choice of products can help you get the job done faster and/or help with the longevity of the repair.
Let’s start with some basic definitions. I couldn’t possibly know every paint manufactures terminology or product use. These are generalities and should be used as a guide only to then read the tech sheets of the products you have chosen for proper use. These tech sheets can be found at the jobber and are given away free. Or most manufactures have them on line, USE THEM. They are a wealth of information and can save you many headaches. You don’t need to read every word in the mind numbing text, they usually have a “product at a glance” or something like that will cut to the chase and give you what you need.

Basic terminology’s;

“Solvent” is a generic term and refers to any “reducer”, “thinner” that is used to reduce the viscosity (“thickness”) of a product to aid in spraying or applying. It could be acetone, lacquer thinner, urethane reducer, a special “basecoat” reducer, water, alcohol, etc. These solvents ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE; each product MUST be used with the specific solvent recommended by the manufacture.
“Etch primer” an acid containing primer.
“Primer” a product that can be applied to bare metal
“Surfacer” (or “primer surfacer”) A primer that has “body” or solids and is used to fill imperfections and provide a film thickness to sand or block a surface to a smooth base for paint.
“Sealer” a non-sanding product that is applied prior to painting.
“Primer-sealer” A sealer that can be applied over bare metal and then top coated without sanding.
“Flash time” the time you allow the solvents to evaporate out of the film you have applied.

Basic technologies;
“Single component” or RTS (Ready To Spray). This is a product that uses no additional components. Just pour it from the can into your gun and shoot. Examples are: Some plastic adhesion promoters and primers and even some top coats like vinyl colors.

“1K” This is a product that uses no hardener, catalyst, activator, etc. It may have an added solvent, but no hardener or activating reducer. 1K products like RTS dry with the evaporation of solvents and are soluble, meaning that they are could be wiped off with a rag soaked with lacquer thinner. They could in THEORY be scraped off and put in a can with solvent and stirred back to a sprayable condition. Of course ALL RTS products are 1K. Examples: All lacquer products, some synthetic enamel products, and some acrylic enamel products. Because of the low VOC regulations the 1K product options are getting scarce, with most limited to “specialty products” like adhesion promoters.

“2K” or “Two component” is any product that uses a hardener, activator, catalyst, etc. It may or may not use a third component in the form of a solvent. 2K products don’t “dry” like a 1K. The 2K product “cures” by molecules linking together to form a whole new compound. Most high quality 2Ks are insoluble after a full cure and will not soften when exposed to solvents like thinners or gas. Examples are urethane under coats and top coats. Epoxies, ISO free products that use a hardener, etc.

Basic tip, ALL 2K products should be mixed as accurately as possible. As a rule 2K products need a minimum of 55 degrees to cure with an ideal minimum of 65 degrees. MIX THEM AS DESCRIBED BY THE MANUFACTURE. They have spent hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of dollars developing the product, they WANT it to work as BEST it can. Do as they say, don’t become a “Junior Chemist”.

Types of products and their uses;

<edit>Vinyl wash

“Wash” or “Vinyl wash” are for bare metal applications for the ultimate in adhesion and corrosion protection. They are very low in solids with next to zero filling qualities. Some are even semi transparent. They are usually not to be top coated with paint. You apply them to aid in adhesion and corrosion protection under other undercoats such as epoxy or urethane primers.
Benefits:
- Very thin, keeps down film build
- Cost effective
- Fast application
- Non-sanding
- Super high corrosion protection.

Disadvantages:
- Some have a very small re-coat window


“Etch primer” (some are 2K)

Typical “etch primers” have much more solids and body than “wash” primers. They are more forgiving than “wash” primers, one thing being a much longer re-coat window. They are basically used to aid in adhesion and corrosion protection as with “wash” primer. You would choose “typical” etch over “wash” if you have some paint or plastic filler as a substrate along with the bare metal. Some brands have a recommendation to apply top coats over it also. This could be very useful in a money saving or time saving is important.

Benefits:
- Easy to apply, smooth, easy to sand
- Some can be applied over plastic filler (not that you need it over the plastic filler, but if you have some, it is nice to not have to go around it)
- Some can be top coated, which can be a big time and money saver.
- VERY cost effective

Disadvantages:
- Added product to buy and apply.


IMPORTANT basic! If you have used ANY metal treatment or “conditioner” read tech sheets carefully for compatibility . The acid in the metal “treatment” or “conditioner” can attack the acid in etch primers and it can LOOSE adhesion from the metal!

Urethane primer (2K) Urethane primer is the most common primer used in auto body and restoration by far. It has good solids and fills well. It is easy to sand and can provide you with a perfect body when blocked properly. Care should be taken when applying it as to not use too much. It can shrink when applied too heavy. It is the best all around primer for applying over plastic body filler and for surfacing your work. If used properly it provides the proper film thickness under top coats and is the perfect substrate for bs/ss and SS.

Benefits:
- Easy to apply, and sand.
- Applies smooth.
- Fills well with minimum of shrinkage

Disadvantages:
- Contains Isocyanates.
- Should always use an etch primer under it.

Epoxy primer (2K)

Epoxy is a good corrosion fighter. It is has a very sticky resin and will provide good adhesion to MOST substrates. It typically has poor filling and sanding qualities (that sticky resin makes sanding difficult) . It is ideal for use as a “primer/sealer” on bare metal that requires no surfacing.
Perfect for frames and components, radiator supports, items that are sandblasted and you only need to prime and paint. You use it as a non-sanding “primer/sealer” and then paint right over it.

Benefits:
- Good chip resistance (it isn’t as hard as a urethane)
- Perfect for a “primer/sealer” over bare metal.
- Etch primers can skipped because of its excellent adhesion and corrosion properties. (although with SOME epoxies for maximum corrosion protection apply a wash etch under the epoxy READ THE TECH SHEETS)
- Provides good base under plastic body fillers (skip the etch if you plan on using plastic filler over epoxy)
- Epoxy has no isocyanates .

Disadvantages:
- Poor sanding qualities
- Poor filling


Polyester primer (2K)

Polyester is a very specialized primer used in very small amount in most shops across the country. But when it is needed, it does a job like no other. Polyester has a huge solids content and will fill 80 grit scratches in one coat or 36 grit in two or three! Urethane for instance provides about ½ or ¾ mils per coat while polyester can give you as much as 4 to 6! Because of it’s high solids, it shrinks very little. It is basically like spraying polyester putty. Look for a manufacture that has a recommendation to apply etch primer under it. I see NO reason to use polyester on a straight panel. It is for use only when you need some serious filling and surfacing.

Benefits:
- VERY high filling
- Low cost

Disadvantages:
- Very high texture
- Harder to sand than a urethane
- Possible need to purchase a large gun to shoot it.

“ISO FREE” (2K)

“ISO FREE” is a urethane type primer but without the harmful isocyanates that a urethane contains.
The problem is ALL refinish products should be used with the same care and concern for your health and others. ISO FREE is like “low tar” cigarettes, don’t kid your self, it is still VARY harmful.

Benefits:
- Isocyanate free
- Smooth, easy sanding
- Good filling
Disadvantages:
- You need an etch over bare metal before it.

Basic tips… Etch primers can be skipped on spots of bare metal smaller than a dime or so when using all primers listed.
Most “quality” 2K primers need NO sealer before top coating with bc/cc or SS when applied properly.


Sealers

All RTS or 1K sealers should be reserved to VERY low end jobs to save money. They do NOT offer the benefits of a 2k, PERIOD.

Reasons to use a sealer:

- Makes up for “some” poor preparation
- Provides a uniform color for better coverage when you apply paint.
- Helps with providing a uniform substrate for paint.
- Helps provide a better substrate when painting over a 1K primer.
- Can Help with “covering” poor prior repairs

Under collision repair conditions a shop may use sealers on every job as an “insurance” protection against problems. In a restoration environment where complete panels are primed with a 2K there really is no need to use them.
If you have chosen to use a sealer there now are a few more choices to make. First, you need to decide what kind of sealer to use. As I mentioned in the beginning, RTS or 1k could be used to save money. Why put a 1K sealer over your 2K primer (I hope you are using a 2K primer) then apply a 2K top coat? It is like the old saying, “It’s only as strong as it’s weakest link”. If you use a 1K sealer in this fashion it is like replacing a link in your tow chain with a nylon tie!

With 2K there are a few options, epoxy and urethane being the most popular. I don’t feel that there is a huge difference in the two as far as how they apply or work. Epoxy is more forgiving with sensitive substrates. It really comes down to what you feel more comfortable with. The epoxy has no isos so that would be one reason to choose it.
Now that you have decided what sealer to use you have to decide on what application.
Most sealers give you the option of a “wet on wet” (or very close to it) or a full “barrier coat” application.
The difference being with “wet on wet” the sealer is applied and then allowed a short flash time before the basecoat or SS is applied. A “barrier coat” is where the sealer is applied, then allowed to cure or at the very least to totally flash. This allows the sealer to become a barrier so the solvents from the color coat can’t penetrate it and attack the substrate.

The barrier coat procedure allows for he sealer to do MUCH more of what you choose to use a sealer for in the first place. The choice is made taking into account a few factors. How sensitive is the substrate? Or, how aggressive are the solvents in the color coat that you are applying? If it is very hot weather and you are using a slow solvent in the color coat to help it lay out, you may choose to use a sealer because you know that the substrate is sensitive and the slow solvent will attack it.

Well, that is about it for the basics, have fun!

Good Luck with it !!

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Old Mar 26, 2015 | 12:08 PM
  #3  
dennisbernal91z's Avatar
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Car: Building LS3, T56 Z28
Engine: LS3
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Axle/Gears: Moser/ 4.11
Re: Epoxy or Urathane paint? Which way to go?!?

Geez. Not sure if I am more confused now or not... The search continues...

From what I gather, I want to use 2K products. That is a no brainer.

After that, Urethane looks better but I am not sure if I want to do no clear coat. Maybe on engine bay, but when I paint the whole car I feel strange not having a clear coat.

I bought a "paint your car" DVD. And this helped a lot, but I still wanted to see what other guys had done.

I want the finish to look like the factory white, nothing special, just clean. If that costs a little more and takes more time, that's fine. I just want to make sure I am pursuing the right path with top coats and primers, and I guess after reading all that, sealers as well??

Thanks for any more help that can be provided.
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Old Mar 26, 2015 | 12:39 PM
  #4  
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Re: Epoxy or Urathane paint? Which way to go?!?

Brian's listing above is very good. Please note that the word "epoxy" in common usage is never used in conjunction with a top coat of any kind. It is usually used to describe a non-sanding primer or sealer with little if any filling qualities.
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Old Mar 27, 2015 | 01:46 AM
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Re: Epoxy or Urathane paint? Which way to go?!?

I'm painting my car for the 2nd time. Using summit brand single stage 2k urethanes. Stuff is stupid easy to spray and comes out nice. It's all in the prep work. I'm using a single stage 2k sealer primer over my body work, theN the single stage gloss 2k paint (base and clear in one). Then going to shoot it wit a single stage 2k clear coat. Make sure you get the right activators for the right paint and temp range. The 2k urethane are very durable paints. Hardest part is laying it on smoothly and evenly.
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Old Mar 28, 2015 | 12:07 AM
  #6  
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Re: Epoxy or Urathane paint? Which way to go?!?

After all body work is done I would seal the car with epoxy then go with a good base coat clear coat system
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Old Apr 7, 2015 | 10:07 PM
  #7  
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Re: Epoxy or Urathane paint? Which way to go?!?

Awesome tech info, but if it came from the web, is "Brian" available
for follow-up questions. Which I will pose, and see who can lend some
advice. To wit: I have fenders down to bare metal, and intend to apply
(1) epoxy for sealing, then (2) urethane build for sand/fill. (Epoxy spec
says apply next layer w/in 3 days, for maximum chemical adhesion,
while epoxy is hardening.) There will need to be some minor putty
work spots. So my question is, can the putty be applied over the epoxy,
or should the epoxy cover the putty work?
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Old Apr 8, 2015 | 06:57 AM
  #8  
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Axle/Gears: Moser/ 4.11
Re: Epoxy or Urathane paint? Which way to go?!?

good question
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Old Apr 8, 2015 | 10:03 AM
  #9  
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Re: Epoxy or Urathane paint? Which way to go?!?

Brian is a site member who stops by occasionally, but doesn't do so very often anymore.


I belong to the crowd that does the body work to bare metal, then sprays etch primer over all bare metal areas and lightly over any body filler/putty. You cannot put filler or putty directly over etch primer.
Most but not all paint manufacturers do not recommend applying body filler over primers of any kind.
Regardless of whether you elect to use etch primer or epoxy primer, ideally you would spray the 2K urethane primer soon afterward. If you wait past the spray window of the of the etch or epoxy, you have to scuff(not sand) and respray prior to applying the urethane primer. Since the urethane primer will be sanded prior to topcoating, it can sit for days/weeks/months until you are ready to do it.


Very minor polyester putty work can be done on top of the urethane primer as necessary.


Prior to making final decisions, you should decide what brand of products you are going to use and very carefully read their spec sheets.
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Old Apr 8, 2015 | 04:01 PM
  #10  
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Re: Epoxy or Urathane paint? Which way to go?!?

i used to work for a shop that specialized in in street rods and resto-mods. the process we found that works the best as follows:
-strip to bare metal
-epoxy prime bare metal
-do body work over epoxy(you do have to sand the epoxy)
-re-epoxy prime
-high build and block out as needed
-seal
-base
-clear
-sand and buff

I have been told i'm a bit **** when it comes to this stuff. its a ton of work but is my opinion, that is the only way to do it correctly. make sure to use that same manufacture from start to finish (my choice would be standox).

when it comes to single stage vs base/clear. with there is not comparison. base/clear is by far superior to single stage. base/clear has way better UV protection. if you are just doing an engine or engine bay then single stage is good.
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Old Apr 8, 2015 | 05:17 PM
  #11  
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Re: Epoxy or Urathane paint? Which way to go?!?

Cleaning (before the vehicle is worked on) Start with washing the vehicle thoroughly using a cleaning detergent and wash off with plenty of clean water. Dry the vehicle thoroughly and then clean the repair area using Standox Silicon Remover. Apply product to the area and wipe dry with a lint free cloth. Sanding (preparatory work) Sand the damaged area to bare metal. Stopper application Remove sanding dust and clean the damaged area using Standox Silicon Remover. Apply product to the area and wipe dry with a lint free cloth. Apply the Standox Stopper. Sanding When the Stopper has dried, sand the damaged area as required. Apply additional stopper if necessary. Cleaning Thoroughly remove all sanding dust and clean the damaged area using Standox Silicon Remover. Apply product to the area and wipe dry with a lint free cloth. Mask the area around the damaged part. Primer Filler application Areas which are sanded to bare metal must be treated with an anti corrosion primer (Standox Etching Adhesion Primer U3100). Apply a Standox 2K Filler as per Technical Data Sheet. Sanding After applying a guide coat to the primed area, dry sand. Once the sanding process is complete, sand the rest of the repair area with an ultrafine sanding pad or ultrafine abrasive. Cleaning Thoroughly remove all sanding dust and clean the damaged area using Standox Silicon Remover. Apply product to the area and wipe dry with a lint free cloth. Masking Mask as necessary. Cleaning prior to basecoat application Clean the whole area using Standox Silicon Remover, apply the product to the area and wipe dry with a lint free cloth. Clean the entire repair area using Standox Precleaner, apply the product to the area and wipe dry with a lint free cloth. Wipe the area using a tack cloth. Basecoat application Apply Standohyd Basecoat as per Technical Data Sheet. Clearcoat application After the recommended flash-off time, apply a Standox 2K Clearcoat as per Technical Data Sheets. Polishing After a suitable drying time, minor defects such as dust inclusions or sagging can be removed. A perfect result Proper preparation is the best way to obtain a brilliant finish.
_________________________________________________________________________


The above is an excerpt from the Standox website. I'll leave it to you to determine whether they recommend etch primer or epoxy on bare metal.
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