Reddragon88gta

I researched the rear hatch alignment issues to death and have tried a few times adjusting with no change. Really trying to adjust at the glass but not much success. My question is would the new hawks rear hatch hinges fix my issue??? Or do I need to tear apart the deck lid as per the how to article which I really don’t want to do. Here are some pics of what I have going on:

Passenger side overhang

Passenger side hinge area

Driver side hinge area

Driver side overhang

racerx520

iTrader: (1)

looks to me like hinge and you need to fix the trim around the window. it shouldnt come up to a bend at the top like that. my hatch has an overhang too, but wont be taking care of it for a while yet

Jorlain

iTrader: (4)

If the deck lid is overhanging, it's probably out of adjustment at the deck lid, not the hinge. The hinges don't have much play in them.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Its not the hinges. Its NEVER. The hinges. Its the gas struts constantly pushing on the closed lid. Its only got a few small screws in the glass edging. The rope caulk type crap hardened and let loose. I fixed this on a lot of these cars. Remove struts. Unbolt rear lid. Remove plate under it etc. Then putty knife it loose from the glass. Clean all. Then etch prime the glass where the lid sits. Smear full of 3m window adhesive. Lay lid on (remove lock hook) and position inplace and snug up plate w nuts. Close lid. Have helper crawl in car. Position lid dead flush w rear. Some making tape boards and stuff will help to align. Guy inside tightens bolts. Tape all up let cure. After cured open lid. Drill bew hole for screws at end of window trim extensions. Only then and not soobet reinstall the struts. Enjoy your well lined up lid. I have detailed pics in my 87 camaro build thread

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

Reddragon: If you Install a spacer under your hinges the gap at the rear of the deck-lid will get smaller. Look at this pic:



These hinges were removed from different cars and you can clearly see that GM shimmed each car individually to set the deck lid position. (This was done in exactly the same way that the front metal bumper was shimmed with various metal shims to properly line up the nose ) Some cars used a very thin shim under the hatch hinges, some used thick shims and some used several shims....... each car was different. The more shims you use,... the more the deck lid will move to the front of the car when it's closed. You will have to beware that the top of the hatch doesn't get too high / sit higher than the roof when adding spacers under the hinges.

It also looks like your outer hatch-glass trim is starting to work itself off the top of the glass....... definitely want to check into that before it becomes a big problem.



Just to keep any fools from replying with some type of stupidity again; From the shop manual:

Fore someone to actually believe the hatch shocks could possibly push the deck-lid off the glass is, well,...

So; follow the advise of some clown that would have you completely dissembling your hatch possibly creating leaks and other unforeseen problems and ridiculous amount of additional labor -- for NO REASON -- OR follow the info in the shop manual. Good luck !

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The goop between the decklid and the glass decays with age just like all the other goop in the car, and all the rubber. If the hatch doesn't leak, I don't think I'd let a touch of misalignment at the back bother me. It's not like these cars were perfectly gapped and aligned when new, anyway... I'd avoid removing the decklid, and I'd avoid removing the hatch, unless a person is really really afflicted with OCD. That said, there's no 'absolute' answer to every situation. I've never noticed the hatch hinges to wear out, if that is the question. But I can see plenty of ways the glass to hinge bolts could have gotten misadjusted, or the hatch to body, or the decklid to glass.

The hatch that's first on my to-do list needs to have the decklid removed from the glass because water leaks where the decklid is sealed to the glass. All the sealer in the car has been stripped, the goop between the decklid and glass isn't immune from age.

tealman92

How do you shim the hinges to move the deck lid back inline with the rear of the car? Take a good look at his glass to body line at the roof. There is not enough room/space in the middle to move the entire glass back to make the deck lid flush. There is more adjustment on the deck lid then at the hinges. If you want proof I will supply it.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

Installing spacers will move the pivot point at which the hatch will swing. When you place a shim under the hatch hinge it will lift the top of hatch up NOT back; adding a spacer does not move the hatch closer to the body. This is why you've got to be watch-full that the top of the hatch isn't adjusted/shimmed too much causing the top of the hatch to sit higher than the roof. I've swapped deck lids at least a dozen times,... not hatches - decklids. There's 8 13mm bolts and a load of factory (hardening) urethane holding the hatch glass and decklid together,... not including the smaller screws used on the decklid trim & the weather seal strip along the exposed surface. ( FAR from the "only got a few small screws in the glass edging" described in this thread by some ignoramus.)There is NO WAY a couple of hatch shocks will EVER be able to push the decklid off the glass. It's a fantasy created by people that don't know any better. Have YOU ever seen proof that the decklid gets pushed off the glass ?? Seriously; I'm sure you heard about it LOTS of times, but have you ever see someone post a picture of this actually happening ?? If it was possible or if it happens as often as some will make you believe it would be very easy to see proof of this when the plastic trim is removed and documented x # of times in the BODY forum. Yet no one has ever posted pics to show this happens. It's a myth; repeat it over and over again over again for 30 years and causing people to believe it. ( AKA: Its not the hinges. Its NEVER. The hinges. ) Sure,.... You can disassemble the entire hatch and re-set the position of the decklid in relation to the glass and yes; it WILL change the overhang, it's just not the proper way to make the adjustment. It was never the cause of the adjusment issue in the first place & It's a HUGE amount of additional work that will cost more in time/effort and increases the chances of creating water leaks.

Look at RedDragons pic again,...... Glass doesn't change shape. The gap at the top edge of the hatch should be just about same along the entire roof-line. It Looks like the metal trim along the top of his hatch glass is separating / pulling away from the glass. This is a problem in and of itself.

"turbo", Boy, It ain't talkin' **** when you can back it up. I didn't install those spacers under the hinges in my pics, That's factory stuff. The adjustment instructions on how to adjust the hatch came from the service manual, not some half-baked process that I made-up to bilk my customers for labor time. It appears that you just can't seem to handle being wrong or worse, desire to remain incompetent - even when the facts are staring you in the face. ( Yes; Clueless is 1 way top put it. ) & that's right; You stepped on my last nerve with your petty insult, as a result you ain't got no choice; You're gonna' remember me forever ---------------> BITCH.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

Facts ----> not fantasy.

Reddragon88gta

Thank you for all the input, there are so many different options with this situation I wanted some opinions and got them. I also wanted to find out if the new hawks hinges would work but it seems unlikely and spending $200 to likely not fix the problem would be a bummer. I also will have to address the glass separating from the trim.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

The collapsed struts excert a constant force. Try to compress some good ones by hand. Then imagine the decklid is floating in essence on the rear glass. Nylon washers and torqued down.mildly. this is nowhere enough clamping force to keep it seated over 30 years. The adhesive will have hardened and even... if sticky it's a fluidous bond that does not rigidly retain the lids position. Theres not a lot if adhesive under there anyway. Furthermore the small studs have a lot of adjustment in the holes in the glass. If your glass gaps are even all over and the surface is flush with the body you decide what the issue us. The FSM was surely written to keep 30 plus years of service in mind.

tealman92

I understand what it says in your book. Not arguing that at all. But on my car there is not any oversized holes in the body to hinge holes described in your book. There is only about 3/32 room on the glass to hinge hole as well. Even with shiming the glass up it doesnt make a significant enough adjustment to move the rear hatch to flush the deck lid. Now maybe in the factory this was enough to move the deck lids to adjust them. But with our cars being 27-37 years old its definetly mutliple areas of concern back there. Not arguing what is says in your book at all. Just helping a memeber get the deck lid correct and letting him know that there is about 3/8 of an inch of adjustment at the decklid to glass area since he has a significant misalignment at the decklid that your books method of adjustment wont fix.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Since you asked.... I've seen the gap created by the decklid migrating rearward on the hatch glass. No evidence to support my claim, but I've seen a visible gap. Whether it's the decklid sliding, or being pushed off, or previous owners messing things up, it happens. That said I wouldn't trust many people to adjust the decklid to glass or the hinges to glass without horking something up. I've heard of people using a torque wrench to set wheel bearings, and people painting cars with rollers and Rustoleum. In this world, the book procedure gives those who shouldn't get out of bed without a helmet, fewer things to screw up.

GEN Xer

iTrader: (1)

Well, in my case it was the hinges, here's what mine looked like and I only realized how jacked up they were when I pulled them off. The hinges were installed BACKWARD at the factory So YEA sometimes it IS the hinges.

Jbuchanan

My deck lid is by far the worst I've seen so far. On driver side it is a solid 1" past quarter panel. Passenger side is 3/4". I suspect mine is off in both areas. My car sat uncovered in a field for 11 years with the sun beating down on it. Soon as I get a new spoiler I plan to tackle mine. I will post pics tomorrow.

Jbuchanan

Not quite a full inch but close.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

There ya go. If anyone thinks that kind of adjustment is in the hinges. Ridicule me but I fixed maybe 10 or so that were like that and it's a pretty easy job. Takes s few hours in total not counting curing time

Jbuchanan

What did you use to replace the deteriorated butyl rubber or whatever GM used?

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

3m windshield adhesive and etching primer. I have a pneumatic gun to lay down that goop but a mechanical one will work. If you mount the canister cut a large v groove in the spout and aim that away with the tip down. It will lay down a nice high comb of adhesive making sure you won't get any leaks. Continue the bead around the sides and back. Once mounted you can finish the bead on the underside and glue back those plastic filler sections between lid and window trim. I'll see if I have a picture.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uxPiEFrgFpA3zKik1


Just scroll down a little you will see the pics

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Oh and I use adheduve to seal the edge of the lid on the glass also. Mainly so crud doesnt collect there. Tape off the glass and lid with a little room on the glass. Lay a thin bead. Dip your finger in some dish washing liquid and use that to smear out the adhesive in a beautiful flat bead. Remove excess pull tape and soapy finger over once more. It will be much smoother than with a spatula.

Take it for what you will. Im just a moron with a nail salon. No experience st all. In fact I rip off my customers and take their cars to the other speed shop in the vicinity and mark up the price. Hence soft cuddly hands and fat wallet.

Jbuchanan

I do appreciate your help and advice and I will report my results back to you. This is driving me crazy.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

EVERY F-body hatch had an overhang. To call this a PROBLEM and scaring people into work that is NOT NEEDED is the kind of mechanic we here in the states call ( fill in the blank )

Reddragon88gtas' Hatch does NOT need be completely disassembled to overcome this "problem". If he want's the thing totally flush with the top of the taillights ( potentially allowing water to drip onto the top, then behind the tail lights ) that's up to him. Want to adjust it,... ad spacers as instructed by GM; Want to do some custom work - then present it as custom work and don't scare people into thinking there's some PROBLEM they need to fix.

Factory Original: >80K original mile car, hatch is original and was never removed.





Roofline. Hatch on L and roof on R.


Overhang on each side is about 1/2".





The fantasy being presented to explain this "problem" is that the deck-lid is separating from the glass,....... Right ??? SOMEONE SHOW ME WHERE ??

Looking under the hatch at the plastic "pad" on each side you can see about 1/32" gap on 1 side and less than 1/32" gap on the other. But: the overhang is 1"2" on each side of the deck-lid,... where is that 1/2 coming from??




While this is by NO MEANS a definitive accounting,... there is no obvious friction scratches in any of the bolt holes ?? Still can't seem to find that 1/2" ??



Here are the 2 screws on each side of the hatch glass edge trim. In order for the deck-lid to move away from the car ANY distance these holes would have to become slotted,... in the case of my GTA about 1/2". ( I'll tell Ya' a secret,...... those holes have NOT become slotted. ) ** Note: I replaced the rusty brace during this exorcise, it's the same car.


If those holes are not slotted ( They are not slotted ) the ONLY other place the 1/2" gap on each side could be coming from is if the metal outer trim was getting ripped away from the glass & pulled along with the deck-lid ----> Right ?? That would make the gap at the top of the hatch bigger ----> Right ??? Here is the gap at the top of my GTA deck-lid; It's about 3/8",... just like every other normal hatch in existence.


If the metal trim was getting pulled from the glass at the top @ 1/2" on each side of the deck-lid that would create a gap at the top of approx: 1-3/8 to 1-1/2". ( original gap + 1/2" on each side ) This is what a 1-1/2" gap would look like:


You guys with a 1" overhang on each side,... this is what the gap would look like:



There is NOTHING WRONG with this hatch - it's installed exactly as the factory intended. Most people are not lucky enough to KNOW if the hatch on their car is original,. How do you know if ( after reading some bull-crap on the internet.) some previous owner of a 30 year old car didn't try to dissect the hatch to it's smallest parts than use harbor fright silicone rather than auto-grade urethane to put it back together. not really possible unless you dissect it again. This is not the first time on this merry-go-round and in the almost 30 years I've been a Thirdgen owner I've NEVER seen proof that a FACTORY ASSEMBLED hatch has separated from the glass due to the hatch struts ------> NEVER.

Reddragon88gta ---> I would NEVER disassemble that hatch,... Obviously your call; but your fixing a "problem" that ISN'T A PROBLEM and very well *could* lead to REAL problems in the future. If the overhang bothers you that much, add a shim or 2 and see how it looks BEFORE taking the entire hatch apart.

My 2-cents,.......... Take it for the 2-cents it's worth.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Referencing 80k plus mile beater. Lol

15k km all original 88 iroc. Wheres your overhang? This thing is factory fresh. Never disassembled doesnt matter a thing. Time will misalign it for you. And yes this is another of my nail salon cars. Still think you have owned more f bodies than me? I still own 10 I must have had 25 or so 3rd gens not counting 1st 2nd and 4th. Now who is full of ****. If it aint in your book it doesnt exist. Good luck eith that.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

A quick P.S.

For those that ( I fully expect ) will dispute: please don't bother unless you can begin with a picture similar to this one; If the hatchback was swapped - any/all the arguments you make will be irrelevant.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Here. A firehawk. Damn no overhang. Those fkers at slp must have messed with the deck. I bet the owner will.post a pic after he tears into it.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

Gotta' make a correction,........ <80K. 100% factory original. ( at least what's bolted onto it anyway. )



I'd call it a beater ----> if the engine was in the car and I could beat on it.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

I posted a pic of my pristine white iroc. I didnt touch it. Its factory fresh


Here pics af another misaligned one. Showing the factory goop and even where it used to sit. You can even see where the glass edging end stretched away. Its a simple spot weld and the trim is not tight against the glass. Plenty room to stretch and move. Ever had the glass trim off? I take it no. Your book doesnt cover that

deadbird

Could you two children take your petty squabble elsewhere ?

You're both right to an extent. The minor amount of even overhang from the OPs car could possibly be taken out by moving the hinges as John in RI suggests. There is not much room for play there but, may be enough to fix the OPs hatch.

In other cases (such as my own car), the deck lid pushed out on the passenger side only. This is not a hinge issue as the rest of the glass had an even gap all the way around (glass was square to body, decklid was not). Correcting the
deck lid misalignment was fixed the way Twin_Turbo suggests.

Both are methods that can be used... it is up to the person wanting to fix THEIR car to determine for themselves which route they wish to take.
So take your chest thumping and park it. Give the information you feel is relevant to the poster that will help them and MOVE ON.
IF you want to have a pissing contest with each other, take it to PMs. This isn't the YouTube comments section FFS.

TORN

iTrader: (17)

Ok, yes please lets help people.

Maybe its in the book, what do people feel is the proper gap from the top window to the body? 1/2 - 3/4 of an inch?

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

How can it be you fixed it like that. The sagging is a myth a fart concocted my my brain. So says the holy 3rd gen prophet with his book of revelations. Blasphemer do not contradict his greatness and never doubt his all knowing book of everything and anything.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

100% factory original gap on my GTA is exactly 1/2"

jczoka

[QUOTE=John in RI;6305811There is NO WAY a couple of hatch shocks will EVER be able to push the decklid off the glass. It's a fantasy created by people that don't know any better. Have YOU ever seen proof that the decklid gets pushed off the glass ?? [b]Seriously; I'm sure you heard about it LOTS of times, but have you ever see someone post a picture of this actually happening ?? [/b] If it was possible or if it happens as often as some will make you believe it would be very easy to see proof of this when the plastic trim is removed and documented x # of times in the BODY forum. Yet no one has ever posted pics to show this happens. It's a myth;

Talking about JUST the rear overhang issue,
See this post. I have pictures of this very issue. It IS caused by the hatch struts.


https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/inte...ml#post6172905

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

jczoka,
How is yours now? Did you ever go back and reseal it?

jczoka

No, it's been holding position. Plus I live in Phx so not much rain either.

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

Good deal, glad to hear!

Reddragon88gta

Gave it a shot today and it definitely improved it, not perfect but worth a try if your overhang is not off by much. Funny thing is I had it perfect until I hooked up the hatch struts, those things are powerful for sure. How I compensated for that was to loosen the hinge at the glass with 13mm wrench and push it in. Just be sure to be very careful tightening them back you don’t want to shatter the rear window. Another tip is to get your best alignment is loosen everything up and shut the trunk, get it where you want it then climb in through the back seat with them folded down and tighten the deck lid bolts down.

Driver side after, better than before

Passenger side after, not perfect but better.

Reddragon88gta

Will keep everyone posted on how the fix holds up. The one thing that stuck out was how strong those hatch struts are, I replaced them last year and as I said if not for them I would have got the alignment near perfect. Now hopefully my body guy can get the GTA in this summer to put the new Hawks spoiler and my hood resprayed. Thanks everyone for all the replies

Jbuchanan

We are in the same boat on our GTAs lol. I just had my hood resprayed and I'm hoping to adjust decklid in the morning. Just gotta save some more fun money for the spoiler.

Hawkeye1980

iTrader: (3)

I have this very problem as well. I was looking at the hinges and the gap at the top, It is not 1/2" at all, its like 1" away from the roof line. I am taking the deck off to paint it and reseal it back to the glass. The metal rail that goes around the glass has pulled away from it. What goop do I use to get it back in place please? For that matter it has some rust and I want to paint it as well, any suggestions on the paint type as well? thanks!

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

I spent some time on this today and wanted to beat on this dead horse a little more to prove a point: AN overhang on a hatchback is a VERY common thing,... and the 'fix' for most hatches is very simple and does not require a full hatch re-build or modifications.

After using my GTA as a lawn ornament for the last 6 years I've been able to finally turn my attention to it for awhile. Knee surgery worked out great so I'm able to move around like I used to back in 2015 again and most of my home renovations are done. ( for now ! ) The nice weather here in the northeast this spring has allowed me to perform some rust removal to the GTA and in the process I did some work on the hatch. The wrap-around spoiler was crap and the deck-lid had some rust under it so I swapped the deck-lid.



To re-install the deck-lid on the glass I re-used the original holes on the glass frame "arms" and on the decklid itself; I did NOT drill new holes. These 4 screws were set 'snug' in place and then the large 13mm nuts were installed and torqued till 'snug'. No alterations or modifications of any kind - just tightened up the screws first then bolted it back together.






The original hinges on this (factory original)hatch used a very slim spacer. (The roof-line when the original hinges and spacers are installed can be seen in my posts above. ) I replaced the original hinges with a set of replacement hinges that used a much thicker spacer from the factory.




Here is a look at the roof-line and each back corner of the body after fully torquing the hinges and all hardware today: note the (lack of any) overhang.

* not really relevant, but the PPD motor is not installed/locking the hatch yet. The hatch has good (working ) struts installed and is staying down due to the old wrap around spoiler resting on the glass. ( need a new hatch lock ! )









On my first attempt to re-mount the assembled hatch I used all the spacers from BOTH sets of hinges and it moved the hatch TOO FAR. I had to unbolt the hatch, remove the thin spacers (that were originally used) and used the replacement hinges with the replacement spacers as pictured above --------------> and all the overhang was eliminated.

Reddragon88gta

Where did you get the replacement hinges? My hatch eventually went back to where it was before I messed with it.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

Nothing special, they were used hinges from a hatch that I got off a buddies 91 Z-28. I was going to replace the entire hatch but then a strong thunderstorm passed thru & changed my plans.

DaveyDug

iTrader: (3)

Having just realigned my hatch (worrying the entire time about keeping the glass safe), that picture makes me wanna barf. Major bummer, John.

tealman92

How about a before picture? How bad was the deck overhang before?

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

See post #23 above.

Brad Stevenson

My hinges looked the same, how were this put on backwards? Left or right side? did you buy Hawk hinges to replace did it work?
thanks

Brad Stevenson

My hinges looked the same, how were this put on backwards? Left or right side? did you buy Hawk hinges to replace did it work? and they made a squeaking sound going into driveways and speed bumps
thanks

Brad Stevenson

My hinges looked the same, how were this put on backwards? Left or right side? did you buy Hawk hinges to replace did it work? and they made a squeaking sound going into driveways and speed bumps
thanks