ozzga

Which of these systems is better? I was thinking the wilwood heavy duty front kit, the baer sport kit, or the 1LE setup. These seem to be in the same price range. By better i mean 2 things: bang for the bug and how well each setup does for a daily driven 89 camaro. also does anyone know if the baer or wilwood kits need a new proportioning valve and/or master cylinder?
thanks.

Benny

I believe for overall reliability, fit, and price the 1LE is the way to go. Many people here have done it with only spindle modification necessary. If you go that route I recommend also using Earls stainless steel lines.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

highly recommend the stock disc setup like on my 91 with some earl's braided lines for street brakes. they work great when in good condition.

if you've got money burning in your pocket the 1-le's are nice, but a little outdated. the baers for the same price offer a slightly different (not much) 2 piston pbr caliper modeled off the late model cobra mustang.

heard of people using wilwood, the only kits i've seen are the drag kits which i've heard good things and then the 4 and 6 piston setups which were useless on the street.

i went with the baer and love it, as long as your not into the total image they are very reasonably priced at roughly 800 for the 12" front and only 10 dollars more for the 13". do that with a 1-le kit.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

I agree with Kandied...If you have the $$$, go with the Baers. They are beautiful and will do the job.

If you want to go a bit cheaper and retain the factory look, then go with the 1LEs. They are great, I love mine.

Ed

ozzga

OK thanks. I've since ruled out wilwood cuz of the 'for off road use only' deal.

Now the 1LE is $850 from spohn, i could probaly get away with a bit less if i scrounged up some of the parts from autozone, but then there is the price of the MC/prop. valve. Even @ junkyard prices that makes the price go up to what i've seen the baer setups go for.
Unless of course the baer setup needs a new MC/prop valve as well. Does it?

Oh yeah that $10 more one more inch thing is so frustrating! But i'm not about to change stock rims... the only aftermarket ones that do f-bodies justice are the ronals that were OE on firehawks, and they are too much $$ for me right now.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

alright so go to thunderracing and pick them up less with the plain 12" setup and at least you'll have the revised caliper over the old 1-le and you can say you have baer.............oohhhh isn't that neat!

here's what you get for the base price that's cheaper than 1-le.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

spend 150 more and you get this....

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

dang picture setup...

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

here's the 250 dollar difference.....will save you 12 lbs of rotational weight in the front alone.

B4C Hawaii

I will challenge the stopping power of my 1LE to any baer 2 piston setup.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

you do that........

Intercepter

Kandied.. Who told you that Wilwoods 4 and 6 piston calipers were not streetable? I have the 6 piston superlites on front and 4 piston superlites in back. I put together the front for about 1100 to 1200. I am using their 4 piston rear setup for 4th gen so I have a parking brake setup. It was only 700. A friend of mine has a C5 vette and I can put him in my back seat if he gets on my @ss! They are very streetable. There is a post on the So Cal board by JERRYWHO I think, and he has a nice 4 piston setup.
The 1LE kits are a good upgrade over the stock setup. They will also be enough brake for most 3rd gens, But for the cost to upgrade for a few more bills you can have a better setup. Baer offers the convenience of everything being in a kit. They also offer 4 and 6 piston setups. Their prices on the higher end kits are rather overpriced and can be put together for much less.
For some unknown reason Wilwood will not offer better kits for 3rd gens, because they don’t see a demand for them. An advantage with Wilwood is flexibility. You can choose what diameter rotors and their width. I am running 13.06 by 1.38 width rotors in front. You can always find calipers on EBay cheap and they don’t cost a lot to rebuild.
As with all things performance “The more you got, the more you get”. 8 to 9 bills for a 1LE, 9 to 1100 for a decent 4 piston setup, and 1100 to 1500 for a high end street setup.

blacksunshine'91

iTrader: (10)

Did yours come on new spindles? Mine did but I don't see them in your picture.

mystikkal_69

iTrader: (2)

i want to get baer brakes one day....

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

guys those are not my parts....!

with that out of the way, i've driven cars with the 4 and six piston setups and personally i don't like it. it takes way to much to get them hot enough in normal traffic to work. i'm not the only one who thinks this as most shops and even the companies themselves steer you away on purpose for street cars.

while i think the look is simply awsome.....it's overdone, i think it's great you have it on your car and it works for you. however; it's definately not for me. by the time you get them up to proper working conditions my 2 piston setup has been working wonders for quite some time.

i mean look at it realistically, my 275 front and 295 rear tires can't hold the power the 2 piston brakes can on the street, why would i want more pistons for anything other than looks?

also, another point....yes they are higher piston count and a sweet looking caliper. however, the looks just aren't there; by the time you disassemble and have everything coated to look like a nice baer setup you have more money into. just doesn't work for me.

i spent alot of time looking into it and talking with other people, i'm certainly no expert but i know my share. i've driven all the setups from stock to 6 piston and i went with a 2 which was more than sufficient street.....take it how you like it as i'm just putting my .02 in.

believe me if the 6 piston would have been worth the investment they would be on my car. it wasn't about anything more than what works and is worth the price.

badredbrd89

Baers baby, Baer!

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

o yeah, just in case anyone wanted to know the rotors are considerably thicker with larger cooling veins with baer than any other......

just some info, nothing more nothing less.

ozzga

ok contacted baer and i do not need to change the master cylinder or proportioning valve with their kits. i will be getting the base sport kit (all that drilling and sloting stuff is just cosmetic BS) sometime soon, i'll post some pics when done.
thanks for all the replies.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

you'll like them.

zupmanZ28

How much does the basic kit run? pn? To be honest i've never really had a huge problem with my old iron single piston caliper setup. The only thing i don't like about them is the brake fade. They get hot quick, and then the braking performance begins to suck. I've considered the 1LE setup, but for the money i think i could do better.

Eric

ozzga

here's the e-mail i got from baer:

Hello ****, I do offer a number of different front and rear systems for the 89 camaros. The front systems start at $965.00 and the rears at $785.00. With our systems you do not need to change the master cyl., but if you go from drum to disc on the rear you should run a adj. prop. val. If you have any other questions please call, or if you would like a catalog please send me your complete mailing address and I will send you one.
thanks
bill koppinger
602-233-1411 ext 15

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

there are places that offer better deals. understand that baer wholesales to distributors only and charges you more to go direct. never understand why companies do that but save yourself some money and look around.

figure on 830 for the basic kit without all the extras and 10 more for the 13" track.....may even be less if you go with the absolute bare setup that is identical to the 1-le in most aspects.

the rear is the exact same thing as my 91 pbr disc setup. your paying for the stock calipers and a slightly larger .25" if that rotor.

wait a little bit until the new eradispeed touring kit comes out where you'll be able to use the 12" two piece rotor and it will be cheaper.

they already have the kit but refuse to release the bracket so that they can sell as many stock "touring" rear setups as possible.

best bet would be to find some rear calipers and get a bracket made to fit the new touring system. not much more than 450 for everything and you could have 2 piece lightweight aluminum setup!

ozzga

I've looked around on the net, actually the cheapest i found was on hawks... where is this cheaper place that you speak of? I was just about to order the stuff today, glad i saw your post!
And as far as the rear setup, I have no intention getting it, since like you said it's identical to the setup on my 89. Just figured I'd share for others that may be interested. I'll probably pick up some better pads though.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

you need a pm.......

ozzga

ok activated it.

Zerstörer

I would get the 12" 1LE kit. But if you can fit 13" discs behind your rims, I would get the Baer 13" kit.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

my question to you is why would you get the 1-le kit when baer is cheaper?

what pads can you use with the 1-le caliper? i know that you can get all replacement parts from rotors to pads over the counter for baer as well so i would go with whats cheapest.

to each his own i guess.

a383z

iTrader: (2)

I see all the talk about willwood and Baer but nobody ever mentions aerospace components which are 4 piston aluminum calipers I know alot of sreet rod people use them and I have a friend of mine building a 723 monster motor who uses them on his 1st gen camaro, If it will stop that much motor its got to be able to stop most of our cars and it looks completely awesome. All billet components come on (sweet). I talked to one of the guys that works there and he has them on a 3or 4th gen camaro (dont remember which) and he says they work great. I am building alot of motor and then putting on a ATI DiX so I need alot of stopping power and that is what I planned on going with. Oh and by the way I think cost is around 700$.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

most of their applications are setup up for drag.....their rotors are relatively thin as well and most people i know that have worked with them have fitment problems as well as problems down the road....

if you have had good experiences then that's great. nothing wrong with using different products! i've never used a set personally other than for 1/4 racing, they worked good for that but on the street there was no comparison to the brembo or baer setup.

as far as the 4 or 6 piston.....it's just way to much on the street, but if you like the overkill effect i say go for it. although, it should be known that they take alot to warm up before they work like a 2 piston setup which is why you won't see them on real street cars.....strictly show or race cars.

Matt87GTA

There is worth in the statement "You can never have too much brakes". Cost-benefit analysis peformed and at least paid attention to of course .....

And there is nothing wrong with going to a 4 or 6 piston setup on a street car if you get street compound pads. Wilwood offers both for their calipers. They will be effective at lower temps just like OEM style pads. And with the Wilwood stuff I am looking into (and what I think Interceptor is talking about), the cost is VERY competitive with the inferior 2 piston 1LE or Baer (same thing folks!! Just fancy CNC-ing and larger rotor diameter options with the same swept area! ) systems.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

not to be rude, but have you driven a car with 4 or 6 piston setups to back up your statement? if you have and they work for you then that's great....if the extra hassles involved aren't an issue and you don't mind the tendancies they bring for the street then more power to you. you would also know that on the street a 2 piston setup is almost overkill as it is with the proper pieces.

i'm not trying to turn anyone away from going big. my only point was i've driven them and know what they do. for the street there is no point. if there was i'd have them too.

if they were worth anything close to what they cost for a street car i could understand it. i wouldn't purchase them for my car even if they were the same price as 2 piston..........not if i plan to drive it on the street much. they just don't work the same.

road course racing or shows that's a different story as when they work....they work and the look unbelievable especially since you don't see many in person. there's a reason for that though at it isn't just cost.

i wouldn't go as far as to say something is inferior though...especially when i highly doubt that to many people here could even use a 2 piston calper to it's full potential. by all means please do what you like though, if you feel you must have those extra pistons then you should get them. no sense in wishing.

Matt87GTA

Well.... I suppose I better respond to all of that for the sake of those in the market for brakes, but this is not a flame - just a response.

Yep. More than one even!

What hassles and tendancies?

No, I don't know that .

You know what the ones you drove did. The ones I drove were just fine on the street manners-wise and could put you, your passengers, and any loose items in the cabin through the windshield at will.

I disagree. I subscribe to the "no such thing as too much brakes" line of thinking. Plus, lets be realistic here. Most of us drive our cars hard and even see the track once in a while (some more than others) so why not prep the car accordingly when doing something big like a front brake kit - it isn't like we are talking about a huge price difference with the Wilwood stuff.... Well, I guess it isn't completely readily available right now, but it can be done with a little inginuity right now and I am hoping to change the availability thing in the near future .

Quote:

if they were worth anything close to what they cost for a street car i could understand it.

I'll agree with you on that one for most kits. Most of the ones on the market now are $2,000+ and that is definately a bit over priced unless you are after the looks and have a large budget .

Well you certainly seem to have a biased opinion with those statements taken into account. If you like your stuff, cool, but you don't have to ignore other options.

Why not? It is the truth. The 2 piston PBRs won't hang with a Wilwood 4 or 6 piston caliper (or many other manufacturer's calipers like Brembo and Alcon) in any fashion whatsoever.....

Anyways, the bottom line is that there are other options out there than the PBR kits (1LE and Baer) and people can go with what they want. But I guess the way I see it is that if a guy is already shelling out about $1000, a few extra hundred dollars to get something that is vastly superior seems like a no brainer.... Unless the budget is that tight of course.

Cheers,
Matt

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

was it really necessary to draw it out like that?

a 2 piston pbr setup will put you through the windshield without trying......of course any larger setup will.

you may believe that there is no such thing as too much but that's just not true..........you can go overboard on anything and cause problems. it isn't right to tell people that a 4 or even 6 piston setup works better than a 2 piston on the street and not explain what else goes with it. that's like trying to say a 1,000 horsepower engine is just as streetable as say a 400 horse....sure it can work, but not as well. some things are for the street and others are for the track.

if your car is a race car then you need a race setup........most here are looking for the best setup they can afford for the street. there is no point to go overboard. the larger systems bring complications plain and simple.

why you seem to think that a 2 piston is inferior is beyond me, on the street which is what we are talking about they will hang with any of the larger setups no problem.....

believe what you like, there's nothing wrong with people having different opinoins. i'm certainly open to all of them, but for you to say that one should have a 4 piston setup on the street or that one could even truly use it is crazy. the larger systems are nice don't get me wrong. on the street it is not needed and is a pointless investment. you will not use the caliper to it's potential. save it for the track.

Benny

I have to agree here, I have a 1LE dual piston setup which is what came with the car and it works excellent much like the Baer setup would do. This may not apply to all, but the people I know with the fancy 4-6 piston setups just what the OOHH and AHHH of somebody looking at them and saying "Wow those look great" but never use them to the potential, much like the 4 wheel drive SUV owner who has never taken his rig off road. A dual piston setup is plenty for the street.

Matt87GTA

Necessary - maybe. Only way I could keep all of the seperate comments straight from your reply .

Since the factory single piston setup is not even adequate, the PBR puts it where it should have been from the factory....

I'm not saying the PBR can't put you through the windshield, I was rebuting your comment about the lack of effectiveness of the larger calipers on the street..... We won't get into comparisons with respect to severe street duty or track duty...

I never said you can't go overboard on anything - ever..... I am with you that there are things like the engine or a roll cage that can be overdone per the application. But I am not with you with respect to brakes in this situation. You can go bigger than the PBRs and still get superior performance on the street. And the benefit is that you only have to spend a little bit more to have MUCH more in return. And there are certainly people that drive hard enough to benefit from more than the PBRs - even on the street.... Maybe not you, but I know people that do .

The PBRs are inferior to the 4 and 6 piston calipers I speak of universally. No two ways about it really .

And I think most people are looking for something they can take to the track too. Maybe not because they use their car primarily for a track car, but if you are going to upgrade something like this and spend the big bucks, it is nice to know you have the additional abilities that the 4 or 6 piston kits will give you for not much more money...... Difference of opinion on what other people think so there isn't much to be debated here.... But I have talked to a lot of people regarding this subject and almost everyone has told me that their car is a "street car that I want to be able to take to the track and have fun with once in a while" - or something to that effect. Heck, that is what my car is all about .

And what are these complications you speak of??? I find that comment to be misleading without more information since I will submit that there are none with the proper compound pads.

Anyways...... It is really up to the individual to decide and at least they have two opinions to read about now .

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

do they understand that with the larger caliper comes the greater force to make them stop? in other words you have to work the brakes harder to get them to work better....this is where they accell and why they are best for track use.

what about the time it takes for them to heat up to necessary degree at which you can get good braking power? what about keeping that heat up? there are many more that i can go on and on about but these are the most important.....i agree with you in that if you think your going to 50/50 the whole idea why not deal with the hassles of street use right?

beyond all the hassles then there are replacement parts, true things are becoming more available.....but i'm not aware of any local parts store that carries serviceable parts for them. not that this is a big deal, but to some it is an issue.

for the street though i can guarantee that you can't out do a good 2 piston setup....you might be able to keep up but that's about it. in order for you to keep the necessary friction going as well as even get it up to par i'll have had my brakes ready to go and then some and while mine retain the necessary properties to work yours will already be cooled and you'll have to start all over again.

i suppose there is no point in going further as we both have our opinions which is fine. at least we agree for the most part on the real important issues i guess.

for those interested read up on the issues and you will see what decision is best for you.

laiky

i don't see where the calipers will cause a problem, maybe with huge rotors, but pad choice should be able to remedy any problems related to low brake temps. I certainly wouldn't run daytona spec pads in astreet car.

ozzga

damn it takes baer a looong time to build these things! just got a call from the seller, they are on their merry way to my house.

ozzga

pics as promised:

Dsagers

What makes high performance brakes weak when they are cold has nothing to do with the number of pistons in the calpers. It all depends on the compound in the brake pads.

If you drive a car with six piston calpers and it doesn't stop well until the brakes warm up, it's because someone made a bad choice of brake compounds. Usually, the guy figures if he is going to have the same calipers used in NASACR, he also needs the same brake pads.

A good example is the late 70s to early 80s Corvette. They came from the factory with some healthy four piston calipers, and they do not have any problem stopping when the brakes are cold.

For another topic. What about cryo treating the rotors, or using some of the high tech coatings on the rotors?

Also, ran across an interesting idea at: www.hydroboost.com

This guy takes the hydraulic brake assist master cylinders from GM's trucks and converts them for use with cars.

iroc22

Dsagers, what do you think would be involved in maybe swapping those Corvette calipers to a thirdgen? possible?

J's T/A

iTrader: (2)

Baers are great, you'll love em..

ozzga

figured i should explain why i chose the baers:

i wanted something that was streat legal. wilwood is not.

also i figure that while the wilwood 4 piston brakes may brake better, they may break sooner (pun intended). pbr is a company that sells to major car manufaturers, so i would assume their products will perform well for a long time.

i wanted something that i could buy replacement parts for at a local parts store, don't feel like being stranded for a week while my pads arrive. this is my only vehicle.

it had to fit the original rims. i like the iroc rims, and have no plans to replace them (although i may polish them).

the 1LE setups are inferior and costs the same if not more, since baer hooks you up with braided steel lines and better rotors.

the icing on the cake is that the setup comes pre-assembled, you jut take the old one out, pop the new one in, hook up the lines, and you are done!

now if there was a 4 or 6 piston setup that would fit all of these criteria (well except for being pre assembled), and cost around a grand, then hell yeah i would've put it on.


and on a side note, the thing about heating up to reach proper temps... it's not just the pads, it's the rotor as well. and also the setups has to be broken in properly.

ozzga

yes, possible?

Dsagers

Using the stock 1968 - 1982 4 piston calipers isn’t the best choice, because these are made out of cast iron and are rather heavy compared to the alum stuff available. Someone makes an alum copy of the Vette caliper that is a drop in replacement, that is a much better choice. I'd look for a way to use the brake calipers off the new Z06 Vettes, latest technology, factory parts and look great.

I used the Vette as an example to illustrate that the number of pistons in a caliper does not determine if breaks will work when cold, rather it is the compound in the pads that determines if breaks work when they are cold. Someone had posted that they didn’t like four or six calipers because they didn’t work when cold, and I want to clarify that it is the choice of pad material that he was having trouble with, not the calipers.

As far as retro fitting Vette calipers to another car, sure it can be done. Especially if you have some way to cut 3/8" metal plate. I don’t have that or the welding equipment or skills to make adapters, so I look to guys or businesses that do.

I noticed that in the last few weeks Wilwood has started to offer some kits for their calipers. Don’t know which cars, best to check out their web site at www.wilwood.com As for their calipers, the small dynalites are about equal to or a little better than the Vette’s 4 piston calipers. This comparison comes from a number of guys who converted their 1968 - 1982 Vettes to the Wilwood Dynalite calipers, and posted the results on the web. Now, Wilwood's Superlite 4 piston calipers are some real high performance parts, and since they are used in many racing circles (pun intended) they show up on ebay from time to time. And these calipers work with a factory 4 wheel disc break master cylinder.

My advice is to use the expertise from the guys who do breaks for a living, no need to re-invent the wheel. If Baer has a good system, go for it, unless you also have to buy new wheels. Of course, if you need a good excuse to buy new wheels.... If the 1LE setups are inferior and costs the same if not more, then that isn’t a smart choice.

In an earlier message I mentioned the hydraboost power brake assist system, the more I think about it, the more I’m intrigued. Figure if that’s what the factory uses to stop their big SUVs and dually pick up trucks, it’s gotta be a big system, best of all it doesn’t depend on engine vacuum for the power brakes, but uses the hydraulic pressure from the power steering pump.

lane

Has anyone else noticed that with the baer kits, the calipers/pads only cover about 3/4 ths of the rotor? I see it in the picture that Kandied91Z posted, and it is that way on my track kit. Is it supposed to be like this or is it a bad design?

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

i don't mind it...........the larger rotor is only for leverage anyway. well looks too!

AGood2.8

The 12" kit and the 13" kit run the same calipers-thus the same sq. mm of brake pad surface area. The advantage (like Kandied just stated) is leverage- the 13" will stop better.

lane

Cool, I thought my track kit was not installed properly or something.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

take it back, it's broken............