Well, I figured I'd post up some pics of my C4HD brake upgrade. It cost me just under $325 for the complete setup. I got the rotors for the price of shipping, and some calipers and pads for the price of shipping plus I gave him a few extra bucks for being kind Then I got the rest of the parts from Ed for $260ish I think. Already had the Earl's stainless lines. Speaking of which, the non-1LE lines work perfect if you don't care about not bolting the lines to the struts and just leaving them bolted to the body and caliper.

Total install time was pretty much all day for the one side. Got the other side done in about 45min. Half that time was because I was using a hacksaw to cut the spindle instead of something useful like an angle grinder. The install is straight forward.

It took me so long because I had to run out once to get some tools from my uncle's house and a drill chuck for my drill. Then I went out a second time to my friend's house since all my tools are at his house right now for our project car and had to return the chuck I bought to buy one that actually fit my drill. Then I had to go out a third time to buy a new hacksaw and some hacksaw blades.

I'd assembled and re-assembled the first side like 3 or 4 times because I kept forgetting something. Had to do that twice because I forgot to cut the spindle the first time for the bottom to get the caliper carrier bolt in. Then the second time was because I forgot to cut the top ear of the spindle off so the caliper could fit in. Just make your cuts first. I only cut the little tab off that stuck down and the ear for the top stock caliper mounting hole. I'm more for functionality than beauty.

The braking power is absolutely outstanding. After doing some small stops last night to make sure everything was seated right, I kept increasing the speed slowly each time and increasing the braking pressure each time. Eventually I decided to take it up to 85MPH on a backroad and hit the brakes quite hard (not to point of locking up), and it stopped so fast it scared the hell out of me.

Running the stock MC and prop valve with Valvoline SynPower brake fluid through Earl's stainless lines in the front to the twin-piston calipers clamping to the 13x1.1" rotors with worn PFC (I believe PFC) pads. I'll be replacing the pads, either with some ceramics or Stillen MetalMatrix in a few weeks. I just wanted to make sure everything was going to work right before I spent $100 in pads.

Anyways, here's the pics.

 

Oh and don't say anything about how high my car is riding. I don't have my front lowering springs in just yet.

The wheels are stock off a '97-99 Vette, 17x8.5 front (245/45R17) and 18x9.5 rear (275/45R18).

 

I thought they were going to add a ton of weight as well, but I just weighed my drilled/slotted 10.5" rotors and they were 18lbs each. The 13x1.1" rotors were 18.5lbs each I believe. The stock iron caliper also weighs 7lbs. I'm not sure of the weight of the aluminum 2-piston caliper, but I'm pretty sure its a bit lighter than that. That difference and the material removed from the spindle robably makes up for the weight of the adapter brackets. The only extra weight this project really added was that of the extra hub. While that is rotational weight, it is small and close to the axis of rotation, so it shouldn't impact too much. They didn't seem that heavy anyways.

I was also worried I'd have to buy 1.75" spacers instead of the 2" spacers that I had up front, but the tires don't stick out noticeably. I figure I'll be happy with the ~1.3" of front track that I gained.

 

Congratulations on the upgrade.

The only drawback I have with the brakes I did is I can not get any Stillen Metalmatrix pads for the Wilwood calipers. I am resulting to going to EBC greenstuff because every Wilwood compound I have tried so far is making noises in some sort or another from the racing coumpounds. Even the "T" coldstoppers are not as quiet as I would like. AND I have faded the "t" pads bigtime already from overheating them- they came right back and cooled down to temps fast so they work again, but I never overheated the Stillens on any car or truck of mine and they never made any noise.

 

The only reason I even looked to Stillen is because of how much I've seen you say about them. $89 for the front pair, not bad. What kind of sucks though...I have LS1 rear brakes right now, and the Stillen pads are only $41 for those. But in a few days I'm going to LT1 rear brakes (swapping rears for better gearing and too lazy to do the mods to swap the brakes), and the LT1 rear brakes are $80!! Go figure, the smaller LT1 pads are more money than the larger LS1 pads..

 

Looks sweet! I just got my C4 upgrade from Ed the other day, and can't wait to put it on. Also doin a rear PBR upgrade (since I had the crappy iron calipers to begin with), so my car should stop on a dime when I am done (I hope).

Terry

 

Ah I meant to put up a tool/material list so you don't have to make trips to the store and to friend's houses like I did.

-Lug wrench w/ lock key (if locking nuts)
-3/8" or 10mm allen wrench for old caliper pins
-Hammer (use for dust cap if needed, and tapping in new inner seal)
-Flat screwdriver (use this to pop off dust cap and inner seal)
-Hacksaw with 24T carbon steel blade or angle grinder (for cutting spindle) I'd recommend AGAINST a sawzall.
-Pliers for cotter pin and use on castle nut (I didn't have my full socket set)
-Large allen wrench for the new caliper mounting bracket bolts...don't know what size, I used a huge torx bit..not recommended)
-Whatever socket fits the adpater bracket bolts (I think I used 5/8 or 9/16)
-10mm 6pt deep-well socket (or open-ended wrench) for the bleedersaa
-Various drill bits up to 3/8" for drilling spindle holes if tapping 7/16-14
-7/16-14 tap if using Ed's bolts
-Wheel bearing grease
-Inner wheel bearings
-Inner wheel seals
-Outer wheel bearings (for 1LE hubs, use Timken Set3 or ValuCraft V3)
-New cotter pins
-Brake parts "stop-squeak" lubricant for caliper pins
-Brake fluid
-Loc-tite red

That should be everything you need aside from the rotors, calipers, carriers, and adapter brackets. The procedure is straight forward, and the whole swap shouldn't take more than 2-3 hours if you take your time. I stripped a bleeder on one of the calipers and had a fun time fixing that. If they are tight, make sure to use a 6pt (not 12pt) socket/wrench on them and get it on the entire surface, don't stop just where the rubber boot saddle is.

I actually re-used my old wheel seals because I didn't want to make a 4th trip. This is not recommended, and if you're buying the parts beforehand, you might as well spend the extra $1.99 each on new seals. Also re-used my old inner wheel bearings because I replaced them mid last summer. Had new outer wheel bearings sitting in my garage from when I re-did my brakes last year because Autozone gave me the 1LE outer bearings instead of the standard outer bearings. If re-using old bearings, make sure to re-pack them, and pack the new bearings well. I use synthetic grease because it was only like $4.50 for the can when I bought it last summer. Works great.

Use red loc-tite on the bracket-to-spindle bolts and the carrier-to-bracket bolts once you know it will fit together (test fit first). I didn't do this yet, but I'd definitely recommend it for safe measures.

Also, for drilling/tapping the holes, I used a 3/8" drill bit instead of the "U"-sized drill bit you're supposed to use when tapping for 7/16-14. U-sized = .3840". 3/8" = .3750". I figured the .009" difference wouldn't be a problem, and it was not. Used a $5.99 kit from Autozone to tap for 7/16-14, and my bolts threaded right in.

The bottom line is to make sure you have everything beforehand. You don't want to have to stop working to run out to the store, its just a waste of time.

If anyone can think of any questions, feel free to post them up here or PM me.

 

Hows this for an array of pads sitting around that I have tried. Trust me when I say Stillen are the best pad I have ever used on street use and mid level track use. They are great for AutoX and will do "decent" even on a road course. They are better that the Wilwood 'T's, 'Q's, & 'E's. which are all the lower so called streetable Wilwood coumpounds. There are some PFC's and some bendix in that pile also that I only ran for a few months and took back out of there on various applications. I just keep any old pads for emergency purposes in a jam.

Thats not counting what is on the cars and trucks right now. I have about $1000+ in brake pads sitting there.

 

Hey Dean...can you get Stillen's for 4 piston Superlite II's ? How are the EBC's for street and Autocross? How is dusting for Stillens and EBC?

I also found the Wilwood "T"'s to be a poor pad. Very little retardation. In fact with hot Kumho V700's I could not lock the fronts when going downhill at Knox Mountain.

I use Mintex F1 compound for track days. Excellant track pad.

 

Stillen appears to only make aftermarket caliper pads for the AP racing calipers. I have not seen any application for any Wilwoods.

I have tried EBC greenstuff and redstuff pads on the Camaro with the 10.5 setup. The greenstuff seem closest of any pad to the Stillens when hot from autoX but the stillens have a much more predictable initial bite when at normal cold street use. Just an all around great pedal feel at all times. The Stillens will run higher temps than the EBC green.

The main problem I will be facing by going to the EBC greenstuff pads again for the Wilwood setup is that the green pads will exchange material buildup on the rotors with mildly hot temps and cause a warped feeling in due time. I would guess that to be in the range of 500-600*. The Stillen pads do not suffer from this and will run temps I know I have been to about 800* on them without fade. I have had the 'Q' wilwood compound COMPLETELY go away on me on the fronts of the 6pot setup and they have an 800* upper end supposedly- that was scary as all hell and unexpected. They came right back which means the mostly aluminum setup is cooling the pad heat back down quickly without ducts, but I still breached 800* and faded.

I have also used the red ceramic pads in the past year two years when they came out and was not impressed with their feel at all. I gave them away to a friend. I actually liked the green better than the reds- hence why I am going to give them one more try, this time on the Wilwood setup and see how the rotors last. I have a full set of 'E' coumpounds front and rear to pop in when I take it to the track next, but the greens will be for the wife daily driving without noise or sustantial heat. The 'E's are very bitety when used at low temps, not smooth feeling- and noisy.

Stillens are decent with dust- about average. You'll have to wash chrome rims once a week to keep them sparkely

PFC's down right suck in my very outspoken opinion. They require so much initial pedal pressure to get them to react it almost feels like there are no brakes for a 1/2 sec when applied- then they seem to react friction wise like any basic over-the-counter commuter pad but with a slightly higher fade temp. That terrible initial bite is no matter whether they are hot or cold, non-reacts the same regardless of temp.

 

I agree with Dean. Those pads are scarey!

I run Hawk HPS pads. When I switch from the 12" to 13" rotors, I'll put on some HP+ pads that I have already purchased at an extremely good price new. I'll have to give these Stillen pads a try someday.

 

I totally agree on the PFC stuff. Had them on my 10.5 setup and they sucked, and the ones on these 13" brakes have a weak initial bite until you increase pedla pressure. I'm pretty sure there's no air in the lines with how much I bled. Gravity bled, and then did a few of the normal pedal bleeds. Either way, the bite is still quite a bit better than the 10.5's. I don't have to lay into the brake all the way, but when I do, it stops on a dime. Did some testing last night on the highway, and its not so scary stopping from 120-130mph anymore (not that I do that very often..I was just testing the brakes out---it was 530AM on my way home from IN).

Stillen's will definitely be going in the front. Not sure what to do about the backs. I can't see putting $80 pads on LT1 rear calipers.

 

Duron, I would highly recommend going to the same friction pad on the rear and using an adjustable prop valve if then needed to dial things in perfect. Reason why I say that is that to me, at least with my driving style, I like a rear pads with a very good initial bite. Stillen has that, very smooth but very much there and responsive so it helps with a smoother and controlled weight transfer when coming quickly onto the binders.

The best characteristic of them which I have not mentioned previously is the release is just as smooth and predictable. They have such a great pedal control feel to trail brake with. They are not the least bit snappy or unsettling. This is why I like them so much and they don't seem to change that charateristics regardless of temp level, A very flatline pad with heat range. So easy to pedal a grandmother could kiss the chassis sideways with brake feel into a corner. I can do no wrong with them.

 

I put the EBC greens on yesterday and they feel sooooooo much better than the Wilwood pads. Still just a hair bitety, but much more smooth and predictable AND most importantly no noise! We'll see how consistent they stay with some time on them.

 

How do they compare to the Stillen's?

 

You missed this above

I have now tried them on both the 10.5" rotors and the 13" setup and have the same exact opinion each time. I would say they are the best thing I am going to find for the Wilwood calipers for a fulltime street pad.

 

What is the C4HD upgrade all about?

What other brake upgrades can I use?

I have installed the 1LE brake upgrade from SSBrakes and they $uck!

 

Oops, I had read that part earlier and wasn't thinking about it when I read about the Greenstuff on the new setup

The "C4HD" setup is the brake setup off of the "J55 heavy-duty brake package" optioned C4 Corvettes. It is similar to the 1LE setup but uses larger 13" rotors.

 

Well lets see here..... I've run a few different compounds now that I think about it in my two cars.... Here's my list that I have either run or will be running soon:

PFC Zs
Hawk HPS
" HP+
Wilwood D
" B
" Q
" H

And then some stupid stock stuff (Delco, Raybestos, etc.)....

The PFC Z pads seemed pretty tame to me.... Like not much more bite than a stock style pad. They were quiet though and didn't dust much. Never tracked them but I have a feeling they would be fading in a hurry if pushed hard. I doubt I would buy these again though considering the other options....

I really like the HPS for a street pad. They are decent cold and warm up fast. They are fairly low dusting and damn near silent at all times. They do fade when pushed too far though... Definately not a track pad. I ran these in my Z28 in the front only with the stock brakes on the street.

The HP+ were pretty decent as a track pad but I faded them as well after a few back to back harder laps at Brainerd. I ran these on all four corners in my Z28 with stock brakes and the car was fairly predictable as they got too hot. I also ran these on the rear of my GTA (LT1 rear disc brakes) with Wilwood Bs in the front (stock brakes) and even with an adjustable proportioning valve cranked to full rear bias they didn't come close to hanging and the car was quite front-biased on the brakes....

The Ds are great cold pads but they dust like mad and are a tad noisey... nowhere near as noisey as an A or B though... I ran these on the street and I didn't really like them. Too harsh of a bite even when they are cold and then all the noise and dust.... I bet these would be good for Autocross... I haven't tried an Autocrossing but if I do I will run these. I ran these on my GTA with the SL III Wilwood calipers and C5 rotors.

The Bs felt like a true track pad with fairly poor performance when cold and the bite increasing as they got hot. I never faded the Bs in my stock brakes on my GTA but I did crack the HELL out of a set of rotors.... Of course this could be my fault for not allowing enough warm up and cool down time, but I am pretty good about that sort of thing so I doubt it.....

I will be trying the Hs the next time out in my 96 Z28 with a SuperLite III 12.2" 2-piece rotor setup on the car. I've heard some good things about the Hs as far as being more linear in their torque througout all temps and they are nice on rotors. I will be running these in June at Mid-America Motorplex....

I just put in the Qs so I have little experience with them. I intend to run these as street only pads and my main concern is to cut down on noise and dust. I will be running them on both cars.

I just purchased a brake kit from Track Time Motorsports for my 96 Z28 and will be swapping the Forged SuperLite 4 pot calipers from the kit onto my GTA and moving the SuperLite III 4 pot calipers onto my Z28 (the FSLs have fixed bore pistons and they are a less rigid design so they belong on the GTA since it won't be road raced anymore). The SL IIIs will grab a 2-piece 12.2" 48-vane Wilwood rotor...

I'll have more feedback on the Qs and Hs as I use them in the near future..... If the Qs don't work out as a good street pad I will look into HPS pads (if they make them for the FSLs and SL IIIs that is....).

 

Q's squeal badly and are grabby, not smooth at any street temp and the fade badly even on hard street use

 

They better not or I will be having conversations with Wilwood! Are you sure you aren't thinking of a different compound??? The Qs are their ceramic low-dust, low-noise pads...

From Wilwood:

I got recommendations from friends that they indeed are a low-dusting, quieter pad... I haven't actually driven them yet but they are in the calipers on the GTA that is currently INOP due to rear end issues.

 

I ran the Q's for about 3 months and could not stand the noise any more. I was running Part#15Q6829. They are very noisy. I have had the E's on the front and rear, and the T's on just the rear with Q's on the front and the fronts are squealling to every stopwhile the T's have a low speed moan.

I just swapped in some EBC greens and the noise is gone completely-same install method as the Q's. Everything turned and cleaned, then wiped down very well and same backing plate pads. The greens are completely quiet front and rear.

I will never buy Wilwood pads again for any kind of street use unless they come out with something new in the future.

 

Well I'll see how they work out and report back I guess....

I've really had good experiences with the Hawk HPS compounds for the street though... Just a solid smooth pad that has good torque cold and moderately hot. They are no race pad, but for me, the way I drive on the street (which isn't exactly 'defensively'), they are just about perfect as far as performance. Plus they are fairly low dusting and never squeek.

I'll probably swap to those if the Qs don't work out. I just checked Hawk's catalog and they do appear to carry them for the Superlite calipers and it sure looks to me like one could make the standard SL pad work in a FSL caliper with ease...

How much did the EBC Greens run you Dean?

 

The Superlite pads (DP2007)and the SL-6 pads(DP2037) are the same basic shape but will not interchange due to the bridge bolt design the 6-piston calipers have. They are two different pad #'s from wilwood.

My calipers also take a .80" thick pad.

The problem I have going to the EBC's is the they DO make a pad to fit the bridgebolt superlite SL-6 requirement, but they are only .50" thick. They work, but will need replacing sooner of course than a .80" pad. Would be nice to have a thicker one, but oh well at least they work and don't make noise.

I paid about $43 for the dynalite EBC rears and $63 for the fronts
http://www.perfectbrakes.com/products.asp?cat=3519

 

Ahhh... That is some good pricing.... The Wilwood pads are much more expensive than that... The thinner pad wouldn't be too bad for the street but I wouldn't want that for the track.

With regards to interchanging the pads... Yeah I know what you are talking about and you are right on that... I had it backwards. The SL IIIs that I have have the pin that goes through the pads with two bridge bolts and the FSLs have the single bridge bolt like the 6-pot SLs do and the pads have that 'notch' out of the top of them for the bridge bolt to fit in that holds them down. I would bet a guy could take one of those SL III pads and cut the backing plate down to make it work in the FSLs.... There would be no way to go the other way though.

 

Well I've driven the Wilwood Qs for a few hundred miles now on my GTA with the FSL calipers....

I have to say that I have not had the problems you did, Dean, with dusting or noise. They have dusted very little during normal operation and I haven't heard a peep out of them at all so far. They did dust a little when I bedded them in, but nowhere near what the Ds did when I bedded those in. The bedding process went smoothly and considering they are a street-only (ceramic, quiet, low-dust) pad, it took more than I expected to fade them. They have nowhere near the torque of the Ds that were on the car with the SL IIIs but they still are more than capable of stopping the car in very short order - they just require more pedal effort to do it.

Overall I am very satisfied with their performance to this point.

 

I am happy to here they are working for you. I felt bad giving imput on something you had just bought but had not tried yet.
My experience with them was terrible, yet, every application is different based on many variables starting with simple caliper choice, and then to things like rotors choices, brake bias and overall car weight.

I would gladly give mine away. I will never use them again. Plus as I stated, I faded them BADLY at about 600* running them hard on 6 repetitive stopping bursts on a little industrial streets area test course I run near me when I test the car. That fade came with 13x1.25" two peice rotors with aluminum hats and aluminum hubs to help reduce rotor temps on a lighterweight V6 car with about 200lbs less nose weight than most V8 counterparts- and on a very cool night. Thats pretty sickening performance out of brake pads. I have notbeen able to fade the EBC's on the smae test streets even with 30 slows on them repetitively. The "Q"s went Completely away on me on 6 stops. Not just fade, they were gone but then imediately came right back after release and then about 3 seconds of rotation to disapate.

 

Hey no worries, the straight dope is much appreciated and I don't need any sugar coating to protect my feelings...lol. What you observed is what you observed, that simple.

I had to do 10 60mph-0 stops before they went away on me. Once I got them to fade I let them cool completely on a nice easy 40-45mph cruise for 10 minutes though so I didn't test their ability to come back. I honestly thought it would only take 5 or 6 stops to get them to fade but they held up alright on mine... I wonder if the compound has changed between when I got mine and you got yours??

I did get some pad transfer onto the rotors though so I am probably going to scuff the rotors and re-bedd the pads/season the rotors for good measure. These are C5 rotors, straight from GM, and were new when I put the system together last summer. Mine is a fairly stripped down tin top V8 (383/T56/10-bolt) car with no AC, AIR, EVAP, Cruise, Washer tank/hoses, etc..... I also have the PBR single piston 11.625" rear discs and a Wilwood adjustable proportioning valve set to wide open for the rear using PFC Z pads in the rear. I played with the proportioning when I had the Ds in the front and the rear brakes couldn't keep up with the fronts at all so I ended up with it opened up all the way to let full line pressure from the MC to the rears (the fronts already get full pressure from the MC). It seems like it is more balanced (less nose dive) with the Qs in the front but they still are no match for the FSLs on the front.

 

Yeah....that's the same reason I went to the Wilwoods FSL's on the rear. Couldn't get enough braking out of the rear ( with the PBR's ) even with 100% line pressure to the rears.

However, If I had to do it all over, I think I would play with Pad compounds a bit more. IE: A more agressive pad for the rear vs the front. The floating PBR caliper has an inherent advantage when used with C-clip axles. Getting rid of the axle end play ( which causes pad knock off with non-floating caliper ) is a PITA.

 

Very good point on the axle end play.

I have pretty much retired the GTA from road course duty but I have essentially the same brake setup on my 96 Z28 (except with the SL IIIs instead of FSLs and it has the stock P-valve/ABS setup) and it will be seeing plenty of road course track duty.... I already bought a set of Hs for the front of that car but also have Ds so maybe the Ds with a really aggressive compound in the rear with the PBRs will be the ticket to keep the car relatively stable under heavy braking.

I'll have to see what works out with what I have now and go from there. Those Mintex F1R pads sound like something to check out as well. Do you know if they make them for any stock style calipers like the rear PBRs?

If the single piston PBRs won't do the job on my Z28 I was thinking of picking up a set of the LS1 rear rotors with the internal drum parking brake and then using a two piston PBR caliper (like the 1LE fronts) on the rear.... I really like having a parking brake myself....