Hey folks.

I have an 87 IROC with four wheel discs. It stops okay, but the brake feel is not very good. It feels like a typical GM. The brakes make the car feel like its 5000 lbs. Little feel and initial bite. Slightly soft. You have to the push the brake pedal a little further than expected to get real braking power. By comparison my father has a '06 Z51 Corvette. Frankly his brakes have better feel, but still not that great and kind of soft feeling.

By comparison I also own an '01 Acura CL Type S and have also owned several Honda Accords/Civics in the past. All these cars have a very direct, sensitive brake feel. You get good stopping power right when you hit the brake pedal. Great bite. The Acura feels way better in braking despite weighing 200lbs more than the Camaro.

Now again to be fair both cars stop okay. And I'd imagine some people prefer the GM feel. The Camaro can lock up all 4 without too much trouble. But I would like to replicate the Honda feel in the Camaro.

What is different about Honda systems that gives them a much different feel than typical GM systems? Maybe a different master cylinder design?

Thanks for the help,

John

 

if it aint broke, don't fix it

 

Where's the fun in that? That never stopped anyone from modifying their cars.

 

I don't know what specifically is the difference between the cars.....but.....

The following items improve brake 'feel' in our cars. Be forewarned, some of this is expensive.

Replace all brake hardline with stainless...the harder line does not expand as easily as the standard steel lines and reduces that componet of the 'spongey feel'

Have someone press your brake pedal firmly while you watch under the hood. If you see any amount of flex in the firewall (master cylinder moves as they press) then you could improve the 'feel' by beefing up your firewall to reduce the flex. The amount of flex in some cars is surprising.

Replace your brake fluid, older fluids add to the spongey feel. Be sure to bleed the system very well. Any air at all in the lines=spongey pedal.

Buy an aftermarket brake setup for front and rear. 4-piston calipers (two per side) have MUCH better feel, and better pad life too. The reason for the difference here is related to the stiffness of the caliper. "Bridge strength" is the term used by the brake manufacturers when they are talking about the caliper deflection under load.

Your brake discs themselves also contribute to the feel. Its all about frictional area in contact with the pad and fade resistance due to ventilation. Buy a good set of brake pads as well. Friction coefficient really changes the aggressiveness of the brakes.

Keep in mind, the brake pads on your Camaro will last usually a whole lot longer than the pads on your Honda. At least that's my experience. I am only surmising, but I figure it is because our cars use a larger surface area on the pads and less pressure because of this, although the force applied by the piston is large, it is spread over a larger area. The Honda by contrast typically has a smaller brake pad and higher pressures, but the force applied by the piston may be more or less. The higher pressure gives a more aggressive brake performance but is harder on the pad and rotor. That's my thoughts anyway, there is likely someone else more informed here on the site to help you out on this.

 

My dad's 2005 Hyundai Elentra has the best brake feel of any car I have ever driven. I go from my Camaro to the Hyundai and the first time I hit the brakes just about snaps my spine, every time. My brakes are in top notch condition too, fresh everything including lines and fluid and I have rear disks from a 00' SS. I'm hoping that a C5 kit for the front will greatly improve braking performance. If it feels even close to the Hyundai I'll be more than pleased. The Hyundai weighs about the same too.

 

Do not confuse brake feel with touchy brakes. They are not the same. Feel is predictable, repeatable, linear braking. Touchy brakes more than likely do not have feel. You cannot modulate your foot to trail brake for example with touchy brakes. Plus try and make 3 or four hard stops from 60+mph and see how quickly your brakes fade. The feel quickly disappears on many stock imports. Our brakes stock are better to resist this, but not by a ton. Racing brakes are the answer, with the modifications I've listed earlier the result is phenomenal.

Almost forgot, steel braided flex lines are a big help with feel.

 

The first time I drove my grand am i hit the brakes and just about locked them up, they engage very quick, I just figured because its older and they've made improvements over the years. For the 305 I will just leave the brakes alone, but when I put in the 383 then I could see myself getting better brakes.

 

Thanks for the comments so far.

Like I said before, I have lots of driving time on a Z51 C6 corvette. And it still doesn't feel as good as the hondas. So I really doubt slapping on your average big brake upgrade will make much of a difference.

Also, like i said i find the hondas have much better feel. I know as soon as I hit the brakes the car will begin slowing down. As far as modulating the brakes, I still find the hondas better, because I don't have to move my foot as much to change brake pressure. I can just rotate my foot instead of having to move the whole thing an inch before i get braking power.

As far as pad size and life. The camaro stock pads and acura stock pad are probably about the same size, never sat them next to each other. Obvious the corvette setup is much larger. Also the two cars have very different driving profiles. Since 2001 the camaro has seen about 12,000 miles while the acura has seen 108,000 so I can't comment on pad life. However all of the front factory pads on the hondas have lasted between 60k-90k miles. So no, in my experience they don't eat pads.

Also keep this in mind when you think about what I am saying, I guess I didn't make it clear before. I am talking about normal driving brake performance. I have no doubt the Corvette brakes would hold up a lot better than the acura's on the track. And the Camaro's brakes stop it just fine, its just no fun. I would drive the camaro more often if it was more tolerable in normal driving. Neither car will ever see more than 0.01% of their life on a track.

So at the end of the day I will probably end up with a brake upgrade on the Camaro. I'm just trying to see what I can do about the feel, before I spend the cash. I've always wondered how much better the steel brake lines would feel, after all the acura just has normal rubber ones. I bet the answer would be a different master cylinder design.

Thanks all

 

Unless you are a Jeeper/Tinkerer... Then the saying for everything is "If it ain't broke, fix it til it is." haha.

My 87, and now my 86 has THE best feeling brakes on any car Ive ever driven. Yes the imports like hondas and hyundais feel grabbier...but try driving them spirited for awhile. They just dont offer the feel that is associated with good braking. Atleast in my opinion. My GF had an elantra that felt pretty decent at first impression.

My stock thirdgen brakes were discs/drums. They worked fine. But now Im running an LS1 set up. Now, Ive driven lots of 4th gens, with the same components. But they still didnt feel as good as mine. My theory is the way I have mine set up.

Im running LS1 front and rear calipers, LS1 booster, LS1 master cylinder, regular old steel lines, and NO traditional proportioning valve. I installed a wilwood adjustable valve to control the rear brakes. I have my 94 Cherokee set up the same exact way...except its stock jeep front brakes and rear ZJ discs.

Being able to tip in a tad more rear brake really woke the brake system up in my car. I started out with the valve turned way down, so it felt pretty stock. Then I slowly brought the rears online so that they wont lock up unless I really REALLY stand on the brakes. And the fronts will lock up a good deal before the rears. Its how I wanted it...and it stops fantastically. It really does hurt when you reel it in in a hurry. Actually...after I scare people with the acceleration part of the car, I usually ask if they want to see how good it stops.

Anyway..just my two cents. I love the way my car is now and probably wont be changing my brakes to anything anytime soon. If I ever get into road racing, I might consider doing an upgrade, but I doubt that'll be anytime soon.

J.

 

Per the GM manual for the Camaro on the brakes, it stated that the harder you appllied pedal pressure, braking power increased. Which I grew to like. When I now drive other cars and try the braking like in the IROC I am throw almost though the windshield. So check the Camaro's owner manual.

 

I didn't know that the steel hardlines expand. I can't imagine the amount of pressure it would take to do that, the stock rubber flex lines would fail way before the hardlines even started to "expand".

I think you are refering to the flex lines. The stock rubber flex lines expand, and by replacing them with SS flex lines, you can eliminate the expansion from the stock rubber lines to get better brake feel.

 

My daily driver is a 2006 Honda Accord, and I love the brakes compared to my 1990 IROC. The Camaro is much harder to stop, and it takes much more effort to stop the last 10 feet or so. Like you really have to force the pedal all the way down. There's nothing wrong with these brakes, it's just how they feel to me.

Once you get used to the Honda brakes (some folks tell me they're touchy) it feels like you can stop the car on a dime. With the IROC, I have to leave more room for error.

 

I think you are looking for more power assist, not increased feel. I am sorry I should have read the forst post more carefully.

Loads of power assist is available with the hydraulic setups....this is one manufacturer...http://www.hydratechbraking.com/Hydratech/index.html

shop around, there are others out there as well. You can easily drive your face into the windshield with little effort if you go too far with hydraulic assist.

 

krisb410....I meant the stock steel lines. They do expand, not alot The spongey feel is the direct result of having to increase the volume of fluid to fill the expanded space. flex lines expand MUCH more, but there is MUCH less length of flex line in your car than there is steel lines. Increasing the resistance to expansion of both flex and steel lines will yield more direct, firm , braking than stock. This is not the most cost effective start however.

 

I think the proportioning valve has a lot to do with it. Hondas are fwd and give the rear brakes more pressure than rwd cars would so the car feels more balanced. If you think about it, increasing the rear pressure would increase the total pressure for a given pedal pressure and make the brakes feel better ok the street

 

IDK, but i agree, my camaro you def push the pedal, and my whole brake system is new, but i got an 05 accord v6 and if you been driving the camaro alot and get in the accord you will send yourself and whoever is with you into the windshield, its like you tap them and the brakes are there.....all GMs seem that way even new ones, IDK whats up with the hondas but i wish i could get brake feel like that on my maro

 

I'm sorry, but can you back that up? Do you realize the amount of pressure it would take to expand the factory steel lines? I have a hard time believing that you can expand the steel lines enough to make a difference, without 1st, having a weaker part of the brake system failing.

 

Sorry but I see no way that it would expand enough to make any percievable difference in braking performance. They might very well expand alittle bit...As stated, the soft lines get worn out and cause spongy pedal and sometimes sticking brakes if the hose collapses. But in no way do you need stainless lines.

As a matter of fact..Ide almost warn against stainless lines. Unless you have a professional flaring tool, or maybe even a hyd. assist one, flaring that crap is a royal pain. Part of my system was stainless line at first. I ditched it because I couldnt get the flares formed properly. Stainless is awesome if you can work with it.

Once you get your brakes set up the way you want, and have some adjustability in the system, you'll never look back to the stock days...except to wonder how you ever drove the car the way it was.

J.

 

Thanks all for the responses.

I do actually have a wilwood adjustable valve on the car. And it did absolutely help the general brake performance.

As far as additional hydraulic pressure, I bet that could help. Sounds like nobody knows for sure. I'll do a little more research online and in car to see if I find anything. I wonder if the hondas use a larger master cylinder, which would move more fluid on a shorter throw.

As far as feel, its all a personal preference. I happen to like the Honda feel because I'm used to it and to me its a very confident feel. If you grew up driving GM's you probably like the GM feel, and might call the honda feel "toucy" or "overboosted", I call it quick and confident. Its like steering boxes, I like the quick ratio box on the camaro, others would say its less precise.

 

for me, the honda feel is overly touchy at first, but easy to get used to on a daily basis.
my dad has a honda odyssey and i can tell you that it weighs about twice what my camaro weighs, but feels like it can stop in half the distance.
of course it cant, it all has to do with the feel.
in a test from 60-0, i believe my IROC would outpreform the honda, but marginally and with a lot more drama involved, wheras the honda would simply stop.
i would like to try out an adjustable brake proportioning valve eventually and see if this helps the braking dynamics.

one thing to watch out for though is that if you increase the rear braking force, you will have rear wheel lockup if you trailbrake a lot on the track.
hondas get away with this because they all have stablility control of some kind, so it keeps the car on the brink of oversteer, which is OK for FWD, and even desireable.
in a powerful RWD though, you would likely have to have two positions on the valve one for street, one for racing.
just food for thought

 

How do you have the wilwood plumbed? Did you bypass the original prop valve for the rear brakes? Or did you eliminate the stock prop valve all together?

I feel that ditching that valve actually helps the front brakes respond better also...even though I dont think it does anything to directly impact the front brake pressure..besides distributing it between the two front calipers.

J.

 

You replace the stock proportioning valve. You can also use to to adjust brake pressure left to right

 

Well, I must apologize I made one of the most critical errors I could have made, I took someone's word for the steel brake lines and passed it along as truth.

I had to do some quick calculations using approximated values before I could back up the assumed correct statement about the steel lines.

If you care to see the calculations, they are in the attached picture I have not shown all steps outright due to space constraints on my whiteboard in the garage. But the end result for 3/16" OD 0.028" wall thickness steel tubing (brakeline) with 300lbs of force applied to the brake pedal, and 22" Hg of vacuum (closed throttle, 2500rpm), to our stock booster and the pedal depressed a full 4.5", the amount of additional pedal travel directly due to stock steel line expansion equates to a rather insignificant 0.0023"!!!! That ABSOLUTLEY WILL NOT contribute to a 'spongey feel' in any significant way!

Please accept my apologies. I should have known the difference when I was first told of this, since stainless steel, although having a higher ultimate strength than carbon steel, actually has marginally LESS resistance to stretch (E=27 vs 30 Mpsi).

BTW, these calculations are based on roughly approximated values and were done quickly doing several steps in my head. DO NOT use them to compute anything where damage to people or property could be involved.

 

Wow, I didn't expect you to actually do the math. man, props to you on that!!!

 

I see your post popped up right before mine did... I was actually curious how 87350IROC had his since he mentioned he had one installed. Wasnt sure what his set up consisted of exactly. I agree with you on having a different set up for the track though. Ive yet to have my rear wheels lock up while driving spirited in the twisties. If I had to "GUESS" my brake bias, Ide say its close to 60/40 front to rear...possibly alittle more than that to the rear. If I were to go to a long track day, Ide definetly want to tune down the rears a bit. I love it for the street, everyday driving, and the occasional blast down the curves though. SO stable, and SO predictable.

lowflyr: Good lord man! I did some basic dummy calcs on a small notepad real quick while I was at work the day that I responded about the lines expanding. haha. I just happened to have a couple of my engineering books to hold my hand...and I knew it was just a basic figuring. Just wanted to make sure I knew what I was talking about. But holy crap. haha. Kudos for knowing how and figuring out actual numbers!

J.

 

I guess I had to do something to show that I wasn't full of it.....I didn't think I was going to prove myself wrong! LOL

 

being wrong isnt the worst thing in the world man, at least you know for sure now.
if i were to guess, though, i would have come to the same conclusion that many people did.

steel has a modulus of elasticity of 30,000 ksi, meaning that although there is a lot more of it in the braking system, the rubber's modulus of around 15 ksi way way way outweighs the effects of the steel lines expanding.

oh, and the calcs arent really that hard, just time consuming.
then again i guess my definition of hard is different. i have a bunch of books to help with the calcs laying around

 

The calcs took 20 minutes, including the time to pull the parts off the shelves and and get the measurements, I never said they were hard. In fact, other than knowing what the equations are and how to apply them, the math can be done by any grade 12 student. I know the modulus of elasticity for steel. I quoted it earlier. There is no elasticity number for rubber/polyester braid SAE J1401 brake hose. Rubber is non-linear and highly dependant on composition in ots own right, nevermind when combined with polyester braiding.


Now for the interesting part.....

Stainless steel braided PTFE hose expands very little. It stretches enough to give 0.01% volume gain at 4000psi. Thats 0.0002932cc/linear foot at 4000psi.......insignificant to say the least. The stock rubber (polyester braided) hose stretches 0.33cc/linear foot at 1000 psi, 0.41cc/linear foot at 1500psi, and 0.61cc/linear foot at 2900psi. As mentioned, that is a far cry from linear. and therefore has no modulus of elasticity in it's working range.

Is it obvious that the stock steel lines are far superior to the hose? If you think the lines are made of just rubber, of course you would think that. Depending on the rubber and the reinforcement methods, like the stainless braided type tested, it is comparable to the steel lines. Note that the stainless steel braided hose has a volume gain LESS than the steel brake line. Making the steel brake line the much more significant part of expansion than the hose, especially when you think about the number of linear feet of each in a car. However, the difference is practically imperceptable to the driver by this point, so no further modification would be required. Obvious this is not, and there are several other types everywhere in between out there too.

Have a look at the data in the attachment. Don't take my word for it, it came from Goodridge. (http://www.goodridge.net/)

 

i wasnt saying that you were wrong in your calcs, and i wasnt saying that what you did was insignificant in any way, i am saying that you deserve congratulations for sitting down and applying the formulas that you learned in college (i assume you learned them in college or similar... modulus of elasticity is not a term highschool dropouts throw around on a daily basis.)
no offense to HS dropouts meant here either. i know one HS dropout who made 2.9 million after taxes last year... no easy feat...

as for the modulus of rubber, i was always told that under low pressure, 15ksi is a good number to use, but again, this is in a textbook example, not real life.
i guess the LOW PRESSURE part is key... my bad
i didnt mean to get you riled up man, just my convoluted way of saying i guess...

 

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My apologies RED_DRAGON_85. I have been known to be riled easily.....fortunately, it disappears just as fast.

 

Mine has quite a bit of room when you push the pedal, I think it's due to air in the front calipers after I bled out the whole rear brake system and put in new stuff. I never touched, or even looked at the front brakes yet, it's not on the road, so why give myself something else to think about?

 

one thing, is that its possible that GM oriented their performance cars to the track as much as the street.
after all, on the track, you get adrenaline going and you get pretty excited.
all but the best drivers have trouble going from foot through the floor on the gas down the long straight, to gingerly pressing the brakes as you round turn 4.
in a honda or acura with the touchy initial bite, i feel like there would be a lot of over braking and locking of tires.
if the brakes are softer initally, you have more margin of error when you slam your foot on the brakes as you round a corner.

 

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i was talking about autox or track days.
i couldnt get used to driving with two feet

 

I agree with the OP about feel.

My Mazda has with out a doubt the better brake feel and modulation between the two cars and I have yet to drive any GM that comes close.

Many people here are confusing the issue or claiming that the Camaro has great brake feel when it simply dosnt. You can easily adapt to it and so not notice it but there is still a lot of wasted motion when applying the brakes on basicaly all GM,s and that is what leads to that vauge uncertain feel. Since many of the factors can change moment by moment depending on other factors the amount of braking force can change canstantly making threshold braking difficult.


There has been some good advice sofar. A firewall brace will help alot! GM firewalls are flimsy enough that they will sometimes fail entirely in the area of the pedal brackets.

The rigidity in the suspension and brake components is another place where GM fell short. The items are plenty strong but the engineers neglected to limit the deflection the calipers and related components see under even minimal braking.

And as for forigne cars simply being touchy, that in the case of my Mazda is untrue. From first touch to full lockup the brakes are linier and easy to modulate. Just like every other aspect of the cars performance. With my T/A there is a lot of initial softness followed by resistance netting a sharp engagement and since the flex is still there in the entire system braking hard while preventing lockup is dificult.

And saying that GM designed the feel out of the brakes because the 3rd gen was designed for the track ignores the fact that every GM on the road has the same lack of feel. I can promise the track wasnt on GM's mind when they built my first 2 Grand Am's.