Chuck84TA

f I intend to keep the stock brakes (4 wheel disc) what kind of replacement rotors should I consider...

I see rotors from NAPA ranging from $35 a piece to $250 for a set of two "performance" rotors..

Do I really see a "bump" in performance and quality with the added "bling"?

I already have some Hawks pads for the front waiting to be installed....If the rotors need to be replaces, is it worth it to go with the bling?

Phenom-1

Even Better Braking, It's not Necessary but if you can afford it why not have the Extra comfort and Peace of Mind not to mention the bragging rights of knowing you have Great Performance Rotors to go with your Great Performance Brakes ?

My 1992 Z28 has 4-wheel Disc brakes and I still have the stock rotors and currently have on Autozone Duralast Gold brakes but as soon as I can make the Expense I wouldn't mind Upgrading them to Slotted and Drilled Brutestop Rotors and Hawk Brake pads, and I'll save the original rotors for a rainy day

DiabloWS6

iTrader: (8)

From what i know there is a performance and a down side to it for street use they should be great since they alow the rotor to expell the hot gasses out and thus keeping it cooler better bite down side is pads dont last as long as a plain rotor but as well as the rotor when it comes time to resurface the rotor i may be wrong on some of the stuff i mentioned

dads old blue 9

If you do decide to go to drilled and slotted just do the fronts , If you want to beef up the rears , go to the junk yard and pull the stock discs and calipers/brackets from a 1998 camaro they are the same at the 1997 corvette breaks without the corvette name on the caliper . if you change your breaking, front or rear or both , you should get an adjustable proportioning valve to compensate for changes made.

Base91

iTrader: (1)

Whichever will make you happier based on how you want to drive the car. Plenty of performance driving with performance brakes = happier. An occasional burst with regular brakes and more $ in your pocket = happier. ????

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

A lot of bad info here. Rotors serve the purpose of storing and rejecting heat due to friction.

Heat storage (thermal mass) is simply the amount of iron in the rotor; the weight. Pretty much all the rotors for a particular application are the same weight. Drilling and slotting will remove a tiny bit.

Heat rejection is all about how efficiently the heat transfers from the metal to the air. The heat transfer is the job of the vanes. As the rotor spins air moves through the vanes and accepts heat from the vanes. Holes and slots have no significant impact on this transfer. Slots and holes will NOT improve you braking distances or reduce the rotor temperature. What they will do is very slightly increase the "bite" of the pads making for a very minor improvement in pedal feel.

Do not waste your money on fancy rotors for the OEM brakes. Save your money for a complete swap.

John

dads old blue 9

I dont see any BAD info just alot of opinions , whenit comesdown to it its your car and you have to decide whats bs and whats not they make performance break setups for a reason , question is do your needs justify these pkgs?

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Don't get me wrong. I am a HUGE fan or upgraded brakes. My point is, "performance" rotors are not the solution and are a waste of money for the stock sized stuff.

This discussion really shouldn't be about opinions, rather facts.

Chuck84TA

This situatn reminds me of the discussion about building up the 305 with performance parts (OEM plus performance style quality)versus just buying a 350 (all out 1LE).

I just need facts. The question is this ... If I spend $35 for a standard, no frills OEM rotor will I notice a difference in braking with a performance type rotor that costs $100+ using the stock4 wheel disc ?

Do I get what I pay for or is it more of a gimmick?


I generally drive the car fairly hard but it's not a daily driver. Just trying to get the most out of my stock set-up.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Driiled and Or Slotted Rotors will NOT give you any benefit, other than Looks.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I was always under the impression that slots helped cool the rotor. More surface area as well as a surface that is free from receiving friction/added heat.

Chuck84TA

From what I am gathering is this:

1) front brakes are the most critical, I guess 70-80% of the braking is from the front? So it would make sense to spend more for the fronts with performance baking OEM options

2) There are "performance" options but they generally cost 3-4 times as much as plain jane OEM.

3) a new 1LE brake system can cost $1000+ probably worth it but lots of dough, though.

4) scavenge brake parts from a 4th gen and use those, but I would need a proportioning valve? What is that and why do I need it?

Chuck84TA

Exactly why I DON'T care to spend the extra cash. I don't get too excited looking at my brake pads anyway

SlickTrackGod

John has hit it closest here in the answer- you want rotor mass. Its the mass or volume of metal on the rotor that accepts and dissapates heat.

What is a premium rotor? it is a rotor with larger vanes "Usually". When I say usually, I am warning about adds from aftermarket vendors listing performance rotors - but sell rotors made from cheap low cost blanks with drilled holes in them.

You wantto get premium rotors from a site like NAPAomline parts. Those premium rotors will actually have a better vane setup in the vented area of the rotor for cooling, as compared to their budget rotor offering.

Now as for drilled rotors? They do cool better. The problem is you are taking away mass, but yet you are gaining friction voids to carry away the hot gases off the pad into the vented area of the rotor as well as you are gaining alot of surface area exposed to the atmosphere.

So what do I do you ask, because its sounds good and bad? Yes its a give and take. As John stated, drilled rotors allow for a better initial bite of the brake pad and a better pedal feel- this IS true, however they reduce rotor mass. SO>>> Here is what works, and works EXTREMELY WELL. You put solid rotor blanks (premium rotors) from NAPA on the fronts, and I HIGHLY RECOMMEND Stillen drilled rotors in the rear (premuim blanks used and CNC drilled into each vane properly in a design that staggers the pad surface but covers it entirely- NOT ALL DRILLED ROTORS ACCOMPLISH THIS- Stillen rotors do, I can speak from experience- I still have a set in my garage off my old car and I run them on Vetruck (5000lb roadrace truck so to speak..lmao, but true) *****Most importantly, buy Stillens Metal Matrix pads. They have come down in price dramatically over the last few years. They are the ULTIMATE pad compound for street and light track use. Hawks, EBC, Porterfeild R4S, PF do not compare- again Ive used them all.

Why drilled on the rear only? because you need less rotor mass compared to the fronts and the driled rear rotors promote a quicker rear brake bit vs the fronts to give a noticible better chassis feel when getting hard on the binders quickly. It helps reduce chassis yaw under hard braking.

I had my car set up this way- trust me you'll love it. The only thing I could not stand is the inherent defect in design of the pad tabs inside the Delco Morraine iron caliper. The tabs will always unbend a little over a few weeks of hard use- then the pads will rattle inside the caliper at 5 mph in parkinglots unless you ride the brake pedal to keep them tawnt.

Slotted rotors? Don;t use them unless you only race a car on a race course. Slots do also pull heat and gases fromt he pad surface and clean it, but slots also wear the hell out of the brake pads fast. They are not needed for street and light track temps, the pads do not bet hot enough to start glazing to yeild the need for sweep cleaning each rotation.

JFYI- I have Stillen pads on order as we speak being made for my truck, They do not stock what I use but they make them for me.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

True.

Also, drilled and slotted rotors are more effective with Organic based pads that have significant outgassing when hot. This channels the hot gasses away and allows the pad to bite. As pad composition has improved with organic pads they've become less nessesary. With a good performance semi-metallic pad its not nessesary at all.

A good quality blank rotor is better than any drilled/slotted rotors you'd find in our stock sizes.

Also, drilled/slotted rotors for "looks" are often cheap metal and will stress crack under the heat and pressure if you actually put them to the test.

You could do mild track duty with the stock 10.5" fronts with a good blank and Street/Track pads. I've seen guys with stock thirdgens do it at Road America and have no problems. Not saying you wanna go enduro racing, but for the average 20m HPDE session the stock system will holdup as long as the fluid and pads are good. The smaller 10.5" rotors will just operate at a higher temperature than it would with a larger rotor. It will also dissipate heat less quickly.

"LS1" rotors can be found on every 98+ 4th gen no matter the driveline.

SlickTrackGod

Chuck, these to attachments show internal vane characteristics.

The first is a heavy duty curved vane rotor. Not the curves vanes have more area= more mass

the second attachment shows a cheaper light duty straight vane rotor- these are lighter in rotation weight and less cooling mass and are generally good for rear applications, but not so good with hard front use.

Most companies doing aftermarket drilled rotors will use cheap straight vane blanks- THAT is why drilled rotors have a bad rap.

SlickTrackGod

Here is more food for thought.

I ran 12.90" x 1.25 drilled rotors on the front of my Camaro. That is about the same mass as a 12.6" rotor not drilled, but I had alot more surface area exposed to the atmosphere with the smae mass. Both being equal in mass, the drilled example is far superior in disapating heat.

and yes I ran very high dollar curved vane rotors that were drilled- on race courses.

Chuck84TA

Excellent information SlickTrackGod! Thank you!

I have a pretty good idea what I will do then, probably stick with close to OEM rotors for the rear.

As far as the front rotors are concerned, you mentioned Stillen. You think NAPA's premium rotor line are good too?

I must confess that I jumped the gun and purchased some Hawk performance ceramic pads, but I can probably return them.

Jetmeck

iTrader: (3)

Will look pretty and do absolutely nothing for shorter stopping distances.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

No. No cooling from the slots. The cooling is from the internal vanes only. Drilled holes my hypothetically help cool the rotor but its contribution is negligible compared to the vanes.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I do agree with what you are saying. However I have never actually seen an OEM replacement rotor for our fitment that has a higher vane count or curved vanes. Are you aware of any? I think that would be useful, just never seen it.

I also agree that the Napa high end stuff is pretty good. A lot of the budget rotors skimp on the friction surface thickness and end up with a lighter overall rotor.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Crazy if you ask me. Perhaps if you use a very high temp track pad you can make them survive for a little while, but I can't imagine a full 20min session. And if you can, you are probably not driving the car to its fullest.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I would return them. I have run those pads on a few cars and did not like them. They will only be worse on the small OEM brakes.

Chuck84TA

Are there any pads that you would recommend ?

SlickTrackGod

Stillen Metal matrix pads

Trust me on that recommendation, I have used them all. These pads are also extremely rotor friendly and do not fade easy like EBC and Hawks do.

http://www.stillen.com/product/brake...4hd-28027.html

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Do you think that the Stillen pads can give the stock Delco 10.5" brakes more initial "bite" and feel?

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Its not crazy, its true. A 20 minute HPDE session by most drivers will not exceed the ability of the stock 10.5" rotors to handle braking duties. Most HPDE drivers are not driving the car at 10/10ths, probably not even at 8/10ths.

They are braking earlier, apexing slower, accelerating later. In some cases not even going full throttle on all of the straights.

So for a stock car, a good set of pads, and good fluid will hold up on the stock 10.5" rotors in most track day situations. Now, if you have a 500hp engine under the hood then the stock rotors will quickly lose the ability to stop your car effectively.

You wanna start wheel to wheel racing, endurance racing..etc anything where you are going 10/10ths then yes, you should upgrade to a larger diameter rotor if allowed by the class rules.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Wow, what is the purpose of a track day if you aren't going to drive the car.

We can agree to disagree on the suitability of the OEM brake for a track day.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

It really depends what you are looking for.

Tolerance for dust?

Tolerance for noise?

Chuck84TA

Dumb question, what is HDPE?

Chuck84TA

Or HPDE?

Chuck84TA

Moderate tolerance for dust and noise

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

high performance driving event, basically a non-competitive track day

Chuck84TA

Sound cool - where do I sign up ?

Chuck84TA

Hahaha! Heck give me a straight and somewhat curvy country road with no rollers, those are some good track conditions for me

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Check with your local track. They are a lot of fun.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Its a little bit of a trip. But MFBA has Road America rented out May 4th and 5th of this year.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/mid-...rica-hpde.html

http://roadamerica.mfba.org

Chuck84TA

OK, obviously my naivete is being exposed here, but this sounds really fun! I never knew you could do this! And this is up at Elkhart Lake, WI? Awesome!

Hopefully I'll get the front end suspension done before this....

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

It is really fun.

You will need a Snell 2000+ helmet. If you are going to do anything to the car in prep I would suggest brakes. Road America is a very fast track.

86White_T/A305

anyone notice alot of guys tend ot go overkill with big brake upgrades on semi stock street cars just for looks.you end up with one noisy and very touchy car and they just dont last long?

ive been seriously considering doing ls1 front brakes only with good rotor/pad.my car is mainly for street and the occasional test n tune but i think keeping stock premium rotor pads front and rear should hold me well but my car is at a point where i want to start pushing the limits more and need to plan for the future.any advice about going the ls1 fronts only and still run premium rotor pad if im making over 420whp?

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Interesting observation. Can you name a kit that has the behavior you are talking about?

FYI, brake noise is almost entire a function of brake pad compound. I can make any brake kit quite and any brake kit noisy depending on pad selection. Actually the larger kits need a far less aggressive pad compound for the same use and would be quieter with less dust.

Also, I don't understand what you mean by touchy. The OEM brakes have an extremely long pedal. I have not talked to a single person who doesn't want a shorter (more touchy) pedal.

What do you mean that don't "last long". The pads? rotors?. Both will almost always last longer on any brake kit other than stock. You really can't find a kit with smaller pads than stock.

Now what is right for you is highly dependent on the use. It sounds like you will be quite a light brake user. For you almost any brakes will work, including stock. If you prefer a better pedal than stock, I would upgrade.

86White_T/A305

im talking in general..not referring to our cars in the above statement.and not kit specific.. but guys who dyi brakes just for looks and end up going with large rotors and cheap pads.yes any brake setup can be noisy..im well aware of that.

im just saying sometimes people dont really need to do big brake upgrades.you can have alot of hp and not enough braking power and vice versa in my opinion...locking up all 4 wheels by breathing on the brake pedal with a stock car isnt smart either.

as for me i daily drive my car in summer,but more and more im getting active track time each year.i think if im going to be north 420-470 whp i may need to increase my stopping power

rayar

iTrader: (1)

I ran those pads on my AWD dodge Stealth and loved them for autocross. With stock pads I was getting into the ABS all the time, Once I installed the Stillen Pads I could actually stop harder without the ABS activating, They just gave a better pedal feel and I could get to the edge of traction without activating the ABS. They also worked the first time you would get on the brakes, No need to get them hot before you had brakes. Since this was a daily driver/ weekend autocross car I never had to worry about getting them super hot so can't comment on that but I really liked them for what I used them for.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Snell 2000 helmets expired as of last year. 2005 or newer is required now.

For a guy just getting his feet wet the factory brakes will hold just fine on a stock car as long as good pads/fluids are used.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I am aware that Snell 2000 is expired, however the link you provided says they are acceptable.

I know we disagree but there is no way I'm barreling down Road America's long straight at 140mph with OEM brakes.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

No it doesn't. Quote from 1st paragraph of the RA page. Neither of the links I provided say anything about Snell 2000 helmets being allowed.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Or does it???

http://roadamerica.mfba.org/techinfo.html

Helmets are required by all in the vehicle --- Must have Snell approved sticker on helmet - Minimum Snell 2000 Rating!

So clearly they haven't updated the page yet. Either way it doesn't really matter, who would buy a Snell 2000 helmet anyway.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

I see that now. I will have the website admin fix it. I was looking at the home page.

Chuck84TA

I don't think I will be comfortable going 140 at this point. Just getting the car to 100+ is fine for me at this point.

SlickTrackGod

Yep, I have been preaching to anyone and everyone that asks for the better of 15 maybe 20 years about this brake pad compound- I have hardly ever seen anyone listen. People have no idea how pleasurable just a simple good brake pad compound will change the capability of the car without having to go to a noisy non-rotor friendly not working when cold rave pad compound. Stillen pads are the creme de la creme. I have never been able to find out what the compound is but it works, and since Steve Millen is mostly known for Nissan 300zx racing and overall import products, the pads have been overlooked by the masses and never gotten into mainsteam American car popularity. He really developed something special and guards the secret recipe. Ive taken some over to Porterfield with some of my old Wilwood baking plates seeing if they could recognise the compound and make some for my old Wilwood setup- they tried to tell me it was their R4s compound and made me a set- it was not. The R4s compound was very grabby.

@Chazman- yes. The pads alone jst put into a stock brake rotor setup will in fact give a bettter pedal feel with a very smooth but positive initial bite and a very smooth pedal release also. They are not grabby or twicthcy feeling at the least bit, however they give MUCH stronger braking feel as you press them compared to a oem brake pad. And they are more rotor friendly then an OEM semi-metallic brake pad. You will only have to turn your rotors on about evey 3rd pad replacement as long as you never hot spot a rotor sitting at a stoplight after a very hard stop from high speed. THis with pad will sit a hot pad against only one spot of any brake rotor and overheat that section of the rotor circumferance changing the properties of the metal and in a sense crytalizing the metal in that one small section of the brake rotor as it spins later. This is what causes future pads materail buildup on that rotor hotspot and thus a wrapped feeling of the brakes when stopping.

He is my 5000lb daily driver truck I was screwing around in recently (was at the track working with a friend teaching him autox in his Katech Vette and I decided to throw Vetruck around the course a few times) anyways, this truck has factory 11.6" rotor front brakes with Stillen pads (and braided lines) and the rearend is comverted from factory drum to a ford 9" with Mustang SVO calipers and 11.5" rotors also running Stillen pads- and I can light track it like this all day long on those brakes with that heavy weight. If I ran the stock OEM pads I would have trouble after 1 run with the pads glazing over. FYI- I beat all 4 Vettes in this truck that day at the track and upset alot of people.

http://public.fotki.com/makofoto/201.../mvi-0195.html

And if you have doubts about how much I am braking, here's Tommy overshooting the corner under braking in the same section of track in his Katech. That chicane is alot harder to get through that it looks. Listen to his tire squeal even on the last corner, and that's a 200k Katech- my truck makes it look easy- all 5000lbs on Stillen pads.
http://public.fotki.com/makofoto/201...broadband.html