1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

Ordered this today... hopefully will have pics and updates thursday

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

This is a drag only car I hope.

1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

Nooo.... this is going on my car and it should work great. 12.19 rotor and 4 piston calipers

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

What do they run?
Ive been booking at the aerospace ones for $ 835...
4 piston also, but slotted n drilled setup for street.

1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

Call tick performance and ask for martin... tell him hunter sent you and he will hook you up brotha! The drilled/slotted ones from summit are 837 I think and I know martin can beat that

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Will they fit 15 inch turbocast wheels?

1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

It says they will fit 15 inch wheels

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

I was able to get on the willwood mobile site and saw a bunch, but couldn't get on the official / pc site this morning... are those for street cars, I saw some said drag / race...

How do these compare to the Aerospace ones? Opinions/

I need to find some that fit my 15" wheel...

Rafael

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I'm with Phil on this one.

That kit is quite questionable for anything but drag use. That kit uses a tiny 0.81" thick rotor compared to stock 1.04". That rotor/hub is only 13lbs compared to 20lbs for stock. That is a 35% loss of heat capacity. That rotor is their ultralight rotor which is certainly light but has very short and very few cooling vanes. Heat rejection will likely be worse than stock, even with the extra diameter.

On top of that, the caliper is TINY. The heat capacity of the caliper is quite low. The pads they use are 27% smaller volume than STOCK. The pads will overheat easier.

That kit is definitely light duty only. Please do your homework before buying.

John

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

The Aerospace rotos are .81 thick also.... 11 3/4" rotor... And they have a set designed for "street"... I've looked through thirden.org for review and I didn't see any bad ones on the Aerospace brake kits...

What gives?

Rafael

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Rafael,

The aerospace stuff is basically the same as the Wilwood. The rotors and hubs look identical. The calipers look different but are the same fitment as the Wilwood Dynalite IIRC.

Not that many people are interested in spending $800 on brakes that are no better than stock. That is probably why you don't see to many reviews.

John

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

I'm a bit confused... I have a 91 Formula... didn't see 1LE in the RPO Codes, says WS6...
So by that, I assume I have 10.5" rotors, not 12"

Found this...

"Standard Non-1LE front -small bearings(10.5" rotor)
3.630"

1LE brake setup- large bearings (12" rotor)
*THIS IS THE FACTORY STANDARD FOR 245/50-16 tires on an 8"wide rim*"

My formula did have the 16" tires, now the 15" turbocasts....
I did find a few reviews on the aerospace ones, people loved them...

Without taking my wheel off and measuring, I recall I had a 1 piston brake caliper, thus the 10.5" rotor...

Rafael

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

So from a 10.5" rotor, I'd be going to a 11.75" rotor....

specs on the aero street ones...

For Street Use
For Cars Under 4000lbs

Brake Kit Includes:

Billet Aluminum 4 Piston Vented Rotor Calipers
Billet Aluminum Hubs
Has Both 4 3/4 and 4 1/2, 5 Lug
Billet Aluminum Rotor Adapters
Hawk Performance Brake Pads
11 3/4 Diameter, 13/16 Thick Vented Rotors
Billet Aluminum Mounting Brackets
1/2" X 3" Screw in Wheel Studs
Grade 8 Hardware
Bearings and Seals
Drilled, Slotted and Nickel Plated Rotors
Made in U.S.A.

Fits: 82-92 Camaro/ Firebird,

http://shop.aerospacecomponents.com/...marovrdsp.aspx

I saw a 1LE set on Hawks for $850....

Rafael

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

That note is wrong. Unless you have a 1LE you didn't get the 1LE brakes stock.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Are their requirements the same as yours?

What are you looking to gain with the swap?

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Don't know their requirements... but I assume it was an upgrade from stock...
For now I'm fine, engine is great, brakes are good... but I have a BBS turbo header for later and I would like to have the best brakes I can put in the 15" turbocast wheels.

So Yes, the stock rotors are thicker (1.04 to vs. .81) but the Aerospace rotors / Willwood are bigger 11.75 inches vs. to 10.5...

As posted by someone else earlier, just looking to be informed and if anyone has any practical experience with these sets compared to stock, please chime in.

Rafael

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I am trying to inform.

Did you read my post, there are many issues with the light duty aerospace/wilwood setups.

For 15" wheels, you would be much better off with 1LE brakes for a demanding situation.

Again though, you haven't specified your requirements. Better than stock doesn't tell me anything. Define better.

Are you after:
better feel (what is better?)?
shorter stops?
longer pad/rotor life?
less dust?
less noise?
better heat capacity?
better heat rejection?
shorter brake pedal?
longer brake pedal?
more pedal effort?
less pedal effort?
looks?
less weight/inertia?

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Yes, I read your post... and I added the fact that the aftermarket rotors are 1.25 inches bigger than stock...

I'm after shorter stops...
An issue you mentioned was heat... Wouldn't the aluminum calipers dissipate heat better than the iron ones (that is the case with heads)?

So my question to you, if there are no reviews, how did you come to your conclusion... by reading the spec sheet or owning a set / experience?

& I am trying to find out if the 1LE brakes will work with these 15" turbocast wheels... no luck yet...

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

No brake kit out there will get you a single shorter stop than your tires are willing to give. This is the biggest misconception out there. The OEM brakes are more than adequate at locking up slicks. You will not get shorter stops with an aftermarket brake kit, assuming your OEM brakes are in good working order.

What aftermarket brake can do is:
1. Deal with heat better, both heat capacity and rejection. This is completely unnecessary for street or drag driving (<160 mph) and questionable for auto-cross.
2. Make the brake pedal feel different. Most brake kits (with the exception of C4 and 1LE) will provide a lighter pedal and all will provide a shorter pedal.
3. Increase component life. Bigger pads / rotors = longer life.

The Wilwood/Aero kits talked about here will only affect 2 in a positive way (for most), and will be the same or worse in 1 and definitely worse pad life for 3 as compared to stock.

Aluminum will reject heat faster than iron. However the calipers talked about here are tiny. Moving up to a mid sized caliper would help more than anything else. Again, this only helps when you are at the edge of the boiling point of your brake fluid. The caliper itself doesn't really care what its temperature is. The caliper is a heat sink for the fluid only.

My conclusions are drawn from understanding the physics. This stuff is basic physics. The assumptions made are pretty reasonable.

1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

Well I live in south alabama in the country in my 8 redlight town..... I already purchased the kit and plan on using it..... I dont plan on autocrossing with these and they look better than the stock ones and are lighter aswell... only time they will be really "used" is at the track when im stopping or if an old fart pulls out infront of me. Ill post pics when they arrive and Ive talked with wilwood and a few friends before buying this brake kit.... and you see what my decision was

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

I'm curious to see your results... a lot of good info here... Here is a reply I got from Aerospace....
------------------------------
Hi,
The brake kit is significantly better than stock. I had a 1987 IROC Z and I put our brake kit on the car after I ruined the oem rotors. I had at least a 35% increase in braking ability and never experienced the brake fade the oem setup had. I drove the car for 25000+ miles after installing them before I sold the car and they still worked as well as the day I installed them. They stop better for a few reasons #1 is an 11 3/4 diameter rotor offers more stopping leverage for the caliper than the oem 10.5 #2 the larger surface area of rotor dissipates heat faster #3 The 4 piston caliper applies more pressure to the rotor and that pressure is more evenly distributed because there are pistons on both sides of the rotor and no sticky oem floating pins. The hubs are billet aluminum which help draw heat from the rotor as well. The brakes also have less rotating mass so acceleration is improved. The calipers use round orings verses the factory square cut orings which allow the calipers to release better preventing excessive pad wear and un wanted heat build up.
Thank you

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Right, but static lightness is a fallacy. The rotor spins; a larger diameter rotor is harder to spin. The worst thing you can do for acceleration is install larger diameter brakes.

I posted this in the other thread as well. But have you ever seen a professional ice skater spin?

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

I asked Aerospace about pad size.... reply...
-----------------------------------------
Hello,
The brake pad size not including the plate are 4" X 2" which is similar in size when you consider the massive taper cut they put at each end of the oem pad (which allows for the factory floating caliper twist on the pins). Also the pressure applied to the pads is spread evenly across the entire surface because of the 4 piston calipers. There are many aspects to consider when comparing brake systems. If people think the weight of the kit is what is most important well, all heavy means is it weighs more not performs better for example cast iron does not dissipate heat it holds it which leads to brake fade caused by boiling the fluid and glazing over brake pads. If people think a large brake pad is most important well, a large pad is useless if there is only one large piston applying pressure to it. If you add up the area of all 4 pistons verses the oem single you will see there is more surface area on the 4 piston caliper. That being said, pressure applied to the brake pad increases greatly by more surface area of piston, even when the line pressure to the caliper remains the same. A thicker rotor will help dissipate heat better providing the vanes through the center are big enough to move enough air but the larger diameter rotor won't get as hot in the first place because of the increased mechanical leverage it offers (the car will stop in a shorter distance with less revolutions of the wheel giving less time to build heat). The brake pads we include in the kit are also a performance compound and much better than anything you can find at the auto parts store.
Thank you

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Ask them what braking ability means. "Ability" has no technical meaning.

Again, stopping distance is solely based on tire grip. The OEM brakes provide more than enough torque to lock up the brakes, try it on your favorite empty road.

The caliper has almost exactly the same piston area as OEM. Therefore they provide the SAME force on the pads. This is solely driven by fluid pressure and piston area.

Indeed the 4 piston caliper will provide a more even pressure to the back of the pad. This affects how the pad wears. You will notice no difference with street driving.


Less mass but higher rotation inertia. They will be harder to turn. Mass is a first power term in inertia but radius is a second power term. Radius is more detrimental than mass.

I am not at all surprised they say their kit is better than stock, that is what they are selling, right?

John

1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

You sir are correct but I didnt see a reason to get aftermarket brakes and thry br smaller than my rear brakes ( stock 01 4th gen)..... I do drive the car and this may be a mistake on buying this kit but im gonna give it a shot

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Yes, it is roughly 4"x2". Pad volume is 2.1 in^3 if they are the same pad as the Wilwood as I suspect.

Stock pad volume is 2.9 in^3. That is significantly larger.

Stock pad on the right, I don't see any taper.




No, not true at all. Those calipers, again if same as the Wilwood, as I suspect, has darn near exactly the same piston area as the OEM caliper.

All of Wilwoods compounds are available in the OEM pad as well.

John

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I am sure the kit will serve you fine. I just don't expect it to be a big upgrade over OEM. Of course they look worlds nicer than OEM brakes.

Good luck.

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

I did get confirmation the 1LE brakes fit the 15" Turbofinned wheels...

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...heels-fit.html

John, thanks for your info... I will go and try my brakes on a nice empty street

Rafael

Fl_Matt

Hello,
I have worked at Aerospace for the past 22 years and have sold, installed and ran our brakes on some of my personal cars. I have owned 4 3rd gen f-bodys . (1) 1984 Berlinetta with a 305. (1) 1987 IROC-Z Started with a stock 350 and a 700R4, finished with a 386 stroker with trick flow heads and a 6 speed, at the time there was hardly any F.I upgrades so I ended up with an MSD and a Holley 650 dp, the car made 480hp on pump gas. (1) 1991 z-28 with a 305 t-tops and a 5 speed. All of these three cars shared a few common issues, the front subframe would crack behind the steering box and I would bend 3/16 mild steel and weld it to the frame then bolt the steering box back on. The other issue was the brakes sucked, I could warp a set of oem rotors in 1 night of racing and the only tires that would lock up was a 15X3 1/2 skinny even the Berlinetta with its 14" wheels and 225 tires would not lock up not that thats what you want. The only car of those three that I put our brakes on was the 87 Z, mainly because it was the one car I was the hardest on and I did not work at aerospace when I owned the Berlinetta. After installing the kit on the 87 I was amazed at the difference over the stock brakes, it was the first car I had driven with aftermarket brakes on it. I never warped another set of rotors and I could if I wanted lock up the 16" 245 BFG z rated tires but doing a controlled deceleration felt like it could throw you through the windshield (thats what I ment when I said improved braking ability). I don't get paid commission so I have no need to promote other than I believe the product works because I have used them and they are more than a noticeable improvement. I love f-body cars and could talk all day about the mods I have made to them some that work and some that didn't. By the way the last one I owned was a full tube chassis car with a 496 big block making just shy of 800 hp and it had our drag kits on it. Gotta go my little boy is crying.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Matt can you provide the following information:

Piston size - 1.75"?
Pad Plate - Wilwood Dynalite 7112?
Pad compound - Hawks HPS?
Rotor vane count - 32 straight vane?
Rotor weight -
Caliper weight -
hat weight -
hub weight -
OEM or 1LE bearings -

Fl_Matt

For Kit part # AC-225VR
Piston size - 1.75"
Pad Plate - HB583
Pad compound - Hawk HPS or DTC 30 your choice
Rotor vane count - 32 straight vane
Rotor weight - 8.5 lbs
Caliper weight - 3.75 lbs
hat weight - 1 lb
hub weight - 2.25 Lb
OEM or 1LE bearings -A-34 and A-6

If you have access to a force guage you will be surprised in the difference in the amount of pressure our 4 piston caliper can apply over the stock single piston caliper. We have a brake dyno as well and beleive me we have thousands of hours testing our products and comparing them to oem as well as most aftermarket kits out there .

We have many kit options available including the larger GT Caliper and Heavy duty GT style hubs as well as many rotor size and thickness options.

My 87 I ran the standard AC-225VR and it was more than capable at handling any thing I threw at it as well as reducing my track ET by .14 in the 1/8 mile. There is a lot less rotating mass and less drag on the rotor due to the round oring design.

Wilwood also makes a nice kit and differes from ours in a few ways but will be a huge improvement over stock as well.

I am not going to get in a big debate over this as arguing on the internet does no good, I just wanted to let people know about my personal experiance with the brakes on the exact same car as well as offer some of my 22 years experiance dealing in brakes on a daily basis. I have installed more than 100 brake kits easily and that is not even a service we offer, I was just helping people out who are not mechanically inclined. I have never had a customer tell me that they wish they had the stock brakes back.

bad_azz91

I have the same kit...just installed it but it will be awhile before i get to test it out...let me know how you like it.

1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

Had this kit on for a few weeks and I can def. say it brakes much better and lost 32 lbs off the front of my car..... excellent brake kit guys! Just had to paint some parts to keep them from rusting but thats life

banksGTA

iTrader: (3)

Got any pics?

572_Rat

I have had the Aerospace 4 piston street brakes on the front of my car for 5 years, and have found them to be excellent, stopping power is way better than factory brakes

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

The big question then of course is what is stopping power?

In a mathamatical sense, it is rotational speed * torque, for rotational power. Is that what you are talking about?

If so, the rotational speed is constant for any brake kit and the torque is related to the brake torque which is rotor diameter * force at the caliper.

The caliper force depends on the piston size.

The Wilwood / Aero kit has smaller piston area than stock and marginally larger rotor. So the power is about the same.

I suspect what you are really talking about, is that you prefer the pedal feel?

People don't pay enough attention to pedal feel.

John

572_Rat

I press on the brake petal and the car stops, does it stop better that it did when it was stock, yes much better

1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

oh look......6k miles later and i havent died or replaced any parts.. imagine that and forgive the rusty rotor.. been raining the whole past week

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Cool... and with those open wheels you can see them turn red when slowing down

Rafael

1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

Been to the track a few times also.... nothing like a 125-20 decel

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I assume by "the track" you mean 1/4 mile. A single slow down every 20mins will not stress even the wimpiest brakes. OEM brakes do fine for 1/4 mile use as well.

1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

The 32lbs saved is worth it IMO.... better stopping, less weight and they look 10x better.... stop and go traffic every other day. If anyone is cautious about buying this brake kit don't be but you will get hated on for it apparently

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

For a drag car, no question. Nobody is denying that.

Better stopping needs to be qualified. Tires stop the car. OEM brakes can lock up any tires you will put on there. You won't get shorter stops from any aftermarket brake kit.

Nobody is "hating" you, I don't know where you got that idea. We are questioning your decision process. I realize you don't care about the science behind brake sizing. But this is a public forum and people will read this other than you and I. I write what I write so others in the future can learn as much as possible and make an informed decision. It is nothing personal.

John

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

looks like a great street/strip setup to me....which is what hunter's car is

1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

i realize that but my "decision" making was based on what i needed and what the tech at wilwood told me.. these brakes stop my car better than stock brakes, look better and weigh less. i DO NOT use the car for anything besides the street and dragstrip and if you tried using them for drifting/autocross/etc. there would be better options but as an "informed" decision these are the brakes i got and would not change my mind again plus i got the for a deal from a vendor off ls1tech for MUCH less that every online price so you might be surprised.
thank you

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

OEM brakes are complete junk, I'm lucky I haven't crashed my car between the poor stopping power and brake fade. They are also barely adequate for 1/4 mile use...

32 lbs is quite the weight loss, how is the performance with agressive driving?

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Nobody is arguing OEM brakes are junk, I would agree. However if you have fading issues on a single stop, then your brakes aren't working as designed. Consider a pad change. You don't replace stock brakes because you want the car to stop faster. They can already overwhelm any tires out there. You get aftermarket brakes for the following reasons.

improved pedal effort and travel
improved thermal mass
improved heat rejection
improved part life
easier pad changes
better looks

Further, please tell me why you think this Wilwood kit is gong to be better.

It has compared to stock:

smaller piston area (2% smaller)
smaller pads (28% smaller)
far less thermal mass (57% less)
similar thermal rejection (9% smaller annulus, 22% less thickness, same 32 vane count, 0.85" larger radius)

The only thing it has going for it is a larger rotor diameter which will change pedal feel but not make the brakes more fade resistant. In fact the smaller pads will heat up faster and likely fade quicker, this is for the same pad compound of course.

Here are two videos showing how bad the Dynapros flex under pressure. Granted a different caliper than the ones in the mentioned kit here, but they are the same size with very similar 4 bolt, no bridge construction. Both use the same pad and have quite similar overall dimensions. A fair comparison IMO. These are NOT my videos.



This is not what I would want on my vehicle.

Again, just trying to inform.

John

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

No but your arguing they are the best thing since sliced bread, the OEM brakes are only good for just normal driving IMO and nothing more. I have changed the pads and even used the original gm pads when I first bought my car cause of the low K. Yes I do want to replace my brakes to make the car stop faster, I don't pull over and park my car after every hard stop cause I'm worried of brake fade and the only time the brakes will overpower the wheels is on a wet road. Also high speed stops can be a problem, my car weighs in at 3900lbs+ with me in it.

You got 3 people telling you it works better... I guess they could be wrong?!?

Well those are different callipers all together though to be honest I'm not seeing the flex very well.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

NOT AT ALL. What I am saying is the OEM brakes will stop your car in the same distance as any other brakes, for a single stop. You will not stop shorter with aftermarket brakes, unless you have an issue with your existing brakes. I have had no problem locking up the OEM brakes with OEM pads on a flat asphalt road from 80mph with grippy GY GS-D3 tires. Take a look at the chart below. The often beloved 1LE require 20% MORE predal effort than the OEM brakes. They are LESS effective for a single stop as are the popular C4 and C4 HD brakes.

Where I find the OEM brakes to be unacceptable is:

thermal management - not good enough for what I do with my car, road course

component life - pads too small

serviceability - bearings come off with rotors and pads take to long to change

looks - ugly

and most importantly

PEDAL FEEL - the OEM brakes feel awful to me, the pedal is way to long. Pedal feel is very personal though, and I accept that some people may like the stock feel better.

For the record, I do not use OEM brakes on my vehicle.

I don't disagree. My argument is not otherwise. My argument is that the proposed Wilwood kit here is no better and in many ways worse than a properly operating OEM setup.

Then I would suggest you have an issue somewhere in your braking system. I would also suggest finding it before you replace your brakes, so you don't have the same issue with your new shiny stuff.

Where is the data? I have provided tons of factual and verifiable data. I have not seen a single rebuttal to any of my data, other than "well they work better for me".

Again, I am just trying to inform. It is up to the customer to take all of the available data and draw their own conclusions. Decide which data is credible and which isn't.

I feel I adequately conditioned the differences. If visible flex with the naked eye is good enough for you, then that is fine. There is no way those calipers would be on my car.

1nasty86

iTrader: (5)

then please by all means do not buy them but they work completely fine for what i use my car for which is driving 3-4 days every week in stop and go traffic in the heat, with the a/c on.... and make trips to the track and have not felt the pedal fade yet from stops at the dragstrip or 130-140 to 55 mph after an unsanctioned acceleration contest on the street.... everyone has their own opinion