Debating doing this setup for my buddies '88 Formula. Pedal feels spongy and read a long time ago that the 4thgen 98+ master/booster would bolt in. Is it worth it? Are there places that still sell these new or should I grab a setup off a car? I know this has been discussed many times before but searching didn't answer in detail. Thanks guys.

 

Not worth it....to "fix" a spongy pedal. Fix the "spongy" first....THEN determine if you should change the booster.

 

The brakes work fine for what they are. Only reason I say spongy pedal is because.. well.. it's an older car, lol

I know the 4thgen stuff is a cheap way to get a better setup for a DD type of car.

 

Does your buddy's 1988 Formula have J65 4 wheel disc brakes?

If it does then it has the worst rear disc brakes GM ever installed on a car. Delco-Moraine.

The car would have been better off if GM wouldn't have installed any rear brakes on it at all.

The car would have been way better off with the drum brakes and they ain't much pumpkin either aside from the fact they actually work.

 

Yeah, it has the J65 brakes on the 9bolt axle.

 

Switching to 4th gen master cylinder will get you nothing but a cascade of parts you need to swap to get back to functioning again.

 

Fair enough. Glad I asked though, appreciate it.

 

"Spongy" is an attribute of the hydraulic system. Meaning, you could COMPLETELY do away with the "power" EVERYTHING, and if they're "spongy", they'll still be just as "spongy". Likewise, you can bolt on whatever "assist" system you want - 4th gen F body, hydroboost, WHATEVER - and "spongy" will remain UNAFFECTED.

A little history of what's happened to the car recently would help. Particularly, if the hydraulic system has been opened (leakage, replacing lines or calipers or MC, etc.). As well as, a description of which brake system is on it. J65 = rear discs; doesn't say what kind. Although, 88 would have come with the SSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPER CRAPPY Delco-Moraine system, which is arguably worse than no brakes at all back there. Please clarify.

 

Nothing appears wrong with his brakes. Just figure there was an easier/simpler way to get better braking without spending a small fortune.

 

Any plug and play , or close, recommendations then? I really don't like the third gen master.

 

Another 3rd gen master cylinder is the only plug and play. Bolting a 4th gen master cylinder to 3rd gen booster will end up with gap out of spec to the actuator pin. If you want a 4th gen master then need to swap the whole master and booster together as a unit. And when you're done there will be no change in performance worth talking about. It will free up some space underhood if you need to free up space exactly in that location.

 

Im not familiar with the issue of the actuator pin. I swapped the 98-02 master into multiple cars and the only modifications required were to the brake lines.

It looks a lot better than the factory ones but I would agree there isnt any massive performance gains to be had

 

I have an 82 w a new but stock master/booster and added a wilwood prop valve and wilwood 6 piston(F) and 4 piston(R). I was concerned when putting the system together id loose performance because of the stock stuff. It was explained to me that it would be fine by multiple people. They were right, theres no spongy feeling at all. Hydraulics don't care what the MC or booster looks like. A MC w a 1 in bore is mostly the same regardless of who makes it. Now, old, crappy calipers/flex lines w an old worn out MC, what will make some terrible brakes. The point about the rear caliper style is significant. They were bad 30 yrs ago. So rebuild the system w stock replacement parts or go all out (or something in between) The big problem w my system is who is behind me when I hit the brakes.

 

I would think, as has been mentioned, that addressing the "spongy" part, would be the most cost effective approach. That may involve little more than a thorough brake bleeding.
If you feel compelled somehow into spending some money, then invest in a pneumatic brake bleeder and flush the entire system while performing the requisite bleeding. You may find that the pedal feel will improve.


https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-...der-92924.html

 

I don't agree with buying pressure...or vacuum bleeders. You can do a world class job w/o spending the money, storing the thing somewhere in your garage, and wasting the time to hook the things up and putting them away. The car already comes with a pressure bleeder installed on it; the master cylinder. Click HERE, for the EASY BUTTON.



That's more b/c of the calipers, than the brake booster.

I had an '83 TA with ^those^ brakes. Two 83's with ^those^ brakes...actually. As has been said, the rear disk brakes w/the cast iron calipers are garbage, and I agree that no amount or type of or tool used in brake bleeding, is going to get rid of a "spongy pedal" -compared to a 4th gen. or other modern cars. I swapped the rear calipers in my second '83 to the PBR aluminum calipers in the rear, no other changes, and that alone dramatically improved the pedal travel/feel as well as the braking performance in general. I would try bleeding since it's essentially free and a good practice anyway....then if I weren't satisfied, I move on to a plan of changing at least the rear calipers.

 

The deal here Tom is that yes, you have can bleed with manually pushing the pedal and having a third party crack the screws....think about that for a minute.
FTR: Yes I've done that on my own with a 2 x 4 pushing against the seat and forcing the pedal while I climb back under the car and crack the screw, lather rinse and repeat or..
with a pneumatic bleeder, you can set it up, which is no less work than accessing the bleeder screw really, turn it on, go inside and surf the internet for a few minutes, come back, assess the fluid situation, top up the master and go back to surfing (if that's your thing).
The real value here is not just a brake bleed but also getting rid of all of that shitty water laden brake fluid with fresh stuff.
I've consumed the volume of 4 master cylinders with this approach which would otherwise take you a weekend of you and your helper trying to get that much fresh fluid through the system.
My two cents.
To each their own.

 

I have. The response is that, 'No you don't." You can do it solo...and, in fact, it's way, WAY faster. WAY faster.



I agree with "to each their own"...I wasn't saying that you're wrong about how you LIKE to do it...I was sharing a cost free alternative for the OP, that is also faster. You can push all of the fluid through the system w/o a pressure bleeder, vacuum bleeder or a partner, in about....IDK....20 seconds or less? Note this quote from the thread that I linked....

 

Agh! I hate seeing people struggle and take a long time to do simple things. MY "problem", is that I'm salaried...so the faster I get **** done, the sooner I can go home. Therefor, I have taught myself the FAST way to get sh@t done....even if it flys in the face of what I was taught in otto skool, decades ago (the pedal pumping part described below). Also....I'm LAZY. I don't want to do things the hard way, when I can just go ahead and do 'em the EZ WAY! With that said, here is the FAST way to:
1. thoroughly bleed the entire system
2. thoroughly flush out ALL the old fluid/water/smeg/rust/debris etc.
3. ...that a novice can do with 1 tool and no helpers.

Ready? Get set....Pump your jack handle!:
1. Jack stand car, remove wheels. (2.5 minutes) +5 minutes to remove 4 wheels. -add 5 more minutes if you don't have an impact gun)
2. open hood, suck or siphon all brake fluid from reservoir. replace the cover, loosely. (2 minutes)
3. go around the car and pry all the pistons back all the way in, bottoming them out in their bores -this is key to getting water/junk out of the caliper bores...no matter how you choose to bleed the system! (4wDisk cars only). (2 minutes)
4. suck or siphon the reservoir one more time, to empty since it filled partially when you bottomed pistons. (2 minutes)
5. Wipe out the reservoir good, fill it up to the top, put the cap on loosely. (2 minutes)
6. Go around and open all bleeders. (30 seconds) (OPTIONAL: Place catch drain pans under each corner, Add: 30 more seconds?)
7. Get in the car, pump the pedal rather aggressively, 3-5 times, full strokes. (15 seconds)
8. get out of the car, check fluid in reservoir, top if necessary, walk around car to observe when the bleeders start flowing from gravity (after your last pedal pump release). (30 seconds at most, typically)
9. Close all 4 bleeders, pump the brake pedal to move pistons/pads back out to rotors, top off reservoir to your desired level (should correspond with pad wear). (1:30 minutes)
10. Install wheels, lower car, tq lug nuts, put on beauty caps. 10 minutes.

There it is. ~ 30 minutes from pulling into the garage to driving out....~10 min for the actual bleeding procedure. 100% fluid flushed, including the junk in the calipers. EZ Button.

Again, to each their own....this is another way to do it, one person w/virtually no tools and it's fast.
HTH....it did me once I figured it out, and it's helped my techs, once I showed 'em.

 

You'll have to explain to me as to how you can flush all of the brake lines and calipers with that simple approach. An approach by the way that I've done several times over the history of vehicle maintenance if bleeding is my objective.
I suppose really that what I'm talking about is going beyond a simple bleed. Yes, I agree, no additional tool procurement required and it can be a solo job (which I alluded to earlier) if the end result in no air in the system. A full flush of 40 year old brake fluid is another matter.
That said, MY mechanic, you've I've kept on speed dial to do my "fleet" maintenance, has done brake jobs and he relies entirely on the gravity bleed method. It works for him and as a paying customer, it works for me too. And this is through an ABS system and all of the nonsense that's between the master and the caliper. Who am I to say he's doing it wrong if the end result is a solid brake pedal.
Really though Tom, if that works for you, then that it may suit the OP to a tee.

 

The Rear Brake System swap from the Early Delco Moraine Components to the Later PBR Components...

Is absolutely one of the BEST Stock Upgrades that can be done to these cars!!!

 

Yes sir. I agree.
I did the 4th gen front and rear swap almost twenty years ago.

 

I did the 4thgen master/ booster swap about 5 years ago, it's completely bolt-on if you swap them both (assuming you have a later thirdgen with the metric brake lines.... an '88 Firebird might have metric lines, but don't quote me on that); as was stated earlier, 4thgen master will not bolt to a thirdgen booster, so they both have to be done at the same time. I still had my factory rear drums when I did the swap (and did the "spring upgrade" in the prop valve), and honestly I couldn't really tell you how much of a difference it made in the brakes. They felt better, but honestly that was probably mostly because I completely bled the system and had new fluid.... if your buddy is looking to replace his master cyl and booster, might as well, but if his current master cyl is still working fine, I'd just bleed the brakes and see how that goes.

 

where can I locate the pbr kit or components?

 

Flybye Performance is one source I've dealt with.

http://www.flynbye.com/catalog/i10.html

 

Just out of curiosity, is there any specific reason for recommending the 93-97 rear brakes over the 98-02? I was under the impression that the later style was preferred if you're changing out the whole rear setup anyways, but admittedly I haven't looked much into the earlier style, so I was wondering what (aside from the parking brake setup) would be different and/ or preferable to the later style. I was able to get the full setup with backing plates/ calipers/ the brake line brackets and all off of a '98 V6 car (same brakes as the LS1 cars) at my local yard for about $120. Was around $250 total into the whole swap after the new pads/ rotors/ caliper seals/ parking brake cables, though I don't know what the compatibility is like with a 9 bolt.... $850 just seems like a lot of money to spend just to end up with the same sized rotors and similar calipers. Any chance the LT1 style PBRs would just be able to bolt up to his buddy's factory 9 bolt disc backing plates? Looks like the caliper brackets between an '88 and a '93 are the same part number, at least according to RockAuto

EDIT: I've talked myself in a circle and put 2 and 2 together, I now see that the LT1 brakes will just bolt onto the 9 bolt rear lol. Learn something new every day! Still though, I wouldn't think he'd need the whole $850 kit...

 

Flynbye was just an example.
When I did mine, I had the brackets to fit the Dana 44 in the Camaro. Then I went to my local parts store and ordered loaded PBR calipers and rotors for a 2001 4th gen (IIRC). So, all OEM or OEM equivalent stuff. The only real bit of cobbling I had to do were the flex lines. And that ended up being over the counter too.

 

Right on! From the pics you sent, it looks like you have the 93-97 PBR calipers, with the spring hanging off the side for the e-brakes. 98-02 had 1/2" or so larger rotors, and slightly different PBR calipers, with the e-brake being a drum inside of the rotor hat, and the cable hooking onto the back of the backing plate itself. Cool to know that the LT1 brakes will bolt to a factory 3rdgen disc setup though!

 

Both the 1989 - 1992 or the 1993 - 1997 PBR Rear Brake Systems will work, are fine, and are extremely similar.

 

Yes, LT1 forth gen booster and master. As others have said you need to do them both. I also added a Wilwood proportioning valve. The difference in the brake feel and performance I found to be sooooo notably improved.
caveats: ‘91 RS so I’m sure the booster and master were 35 years old. Caution: booster control arm is easily hung up trying to feed through the firewall and get to the peg/post on the brake pedal, the brake light switch may cause an interference problem with seating booster to firewall and connecting to booster rod to the brake pedal. Easy fix, i bent the tab that holds the brake light switch giving more clearance and all good no issues. There are a few good u tube videos on the master and booster swap. Flaring brake lines to the prop valve a little challenging and you can mount the prop valve to the mount bracket the original valve was on. Just a little creativity. Job was not totally straight forward but if you take your time I think it is so worth it. I have drums in the rear and that prop valve makes all the difference. The rear brake line out of the booster will require two different brake tube inverted flare nuts one inside the other to reduce size for the rear brake supply line diameter and mount in the prop valve.
good luck

 

Isn't the pushrod on the 4th gen booster shorter. due to the shorter mounts? I've used this cal-van one man bleeder since the 90s.There's a 1-way valve in that aluminum barrel. Works great!

 

I don't believe that they're shorter, but I haven't had my thirdgen booster around for quite awhile at this point, so I can't measure... fit just fine in mine, but I did also swap to 4thgen pedals at the same time, so that should be noted. Didn't try to fit it on the thirdgen pedals first, I was just swapping to the 4thgen ones for a clutch pedal, so can't say whether or not there's an ascertainable difference in the pushrod geometry between the two. Not sure what the difference is between the LT1 (93-97) and LS1 (98-02) booster/ master, but the LS1 master bolted right up to my factory prop valve lines (keeping in mind the '92 had the metric brake lines from factory... want to say that they switched over to metric on thirdgens in '88 or '89, but can't recall; I think Firebirds got em a year or two before Camaros, you'll want to fact check me on that though). Fairly certain the LT1 master has the same line thread as well. I ran it for a few years with the stock drum rear/ stock front brakes just fine with the spring changed in my prop valve, and didn't have to change anything when I eventually converted to the 4 wheel 98-02 discs. ThirdGenGuy on Youtube (think he goes by McLovin here) has a pretty good video on the swap, it's what made me decide to go for it.

 

The appeal of the 4th gen LS1 booster was looks. Its more compact and slightly less ugly than the stock one. I can't remember about piston travel but Baer sells a simple tool to help measure. Or just run a 4th gen reservoir.

 

My 84 camaro had metric brake lines. I remember a thread here discussing the 4th gen booster giving the 3rd gen MC/reservoir to strut mount gap slightly more gap due to the shorter mount on the 4th gen part, but the push rod needed swapped over.

 

The 3rd gen master has a quick take-up valve on the front brakes.

I think (but not certain) that the LT1 master cylinder has a check valve on the rear brakes.

I think (but not certain) that the LS1 master cylinder does not have any of these features. No quick take-up valve, no check valve. It's just a simple master cylinder.

 

Vehicles that use an Anti-Lock Brake Pressure Modulator Valve Assembly typically use a Master Cylinder (and Proportioning Valve) with basic or little to no additional features...

As the ABS Controller and Hardware usually will be up to the task of extra features.