This could be an interesting thread..

We all love big loud stereo systems. Personally I am quite obsessed with them.

Of course with these wonderful systems we also get the critics. Not the ones who say "your system sucks, my pyramid system would take you any day", but those who talk of a loss of hearing later on in life.

Someone who works with me and sees me talking in these forums quite often continues to re-enfirce his belief that these systems can harm you later on in regards to hearing.

My theory is so long as you don't have distortion and things are set up right sound wise, and you are not really stupid, and actually sit in a car that is producing over 142dB of sound without hearing protection.. your hearing will be basically fine.

If I dare to ask, what are your opinions?

distorted or not 142db is loud, no denying that and constant cranking of your music is not smart.

Yeah, basically no matter how pure the sound is, loud sound (high amplitude sound waves) will eventually damage the ear when exposed to over long periods of time. It's not damage to the ear drum, but tiny hairs in your ear that send info. to your brain that registers the sound. So in essence, your hearing isn't damaged, your ear is still picking up and processing the sound. However, with the reduced number of hairs, there is less electrons being sent to your brain and you basically don't get the signal from the vibration of the sound wave to the perceptive part of your brain so it's like its not there.That's why most deaf individuals can FEEL the vibrations of sound but can't (or make out)HEAR the actual note of the sound.

Someone did thier homework

Yeah, high school is actually good for something....finally

Yup. Whether or not it's distorted has absolutely nothing to do with it. The little hairs in your ears can't hear a difference.

If you've exposed yourself to 142dB without hearing protection, you've already caused permanent, and irreversable damage... you just don't know it yet. SPL levels that high kill some of those little hairs, and unlike skin cells, they don't come back when you damage them. You have only so many, and the more you kill, the harder it is to hear. First you start losing the high frequencies, which is why you really don't notice. Later on it starts working its way down until you start losing sensitivity to frequencies in the vocal range... but it all happens so slowly that you never notice.

SPL levels in excess of the mid 140db range have the ability to cause INSTANTANEOUS deafness for some people.

i think anything over 85 db over a prolonged amount of time will cause hearing loss

but a normal stereo at 130db isnt that loud to your ear but listen to it for 10 hours straight and your hearing will be a bit off.

its also very frequency dependant...hitting 145 @80 hz wont be as loud to your ear as at 25 hz. Im not sure why.

the only setup ive had metered did 142.2@ 27hz legal at the dash and nobody could sit in my car when it was dialed in, i even felt uncomfortable at times without hearing protection.

There's a competitor from sweden i think nicknamed Big Oki who has been known to sit inside extreme vehicles exceeding 170db with no hearing protection. Probably not the smartest thing.

i believe one of the proposed rules with dbdrag is that if you hit over 145db while you're in the car your score is void. You have to be outside the car controlling the stereo either with a podium or a remote to prevent hearing and body damage.

Ive never sat in a super loud comp vehicle, the loudest probably was about 157 but i would think your eyes could also be damaged from the great vibration. I know at 157 i couldnt see anything clearly

Actually, I think you're backwards. I'll bet you can tolerate 145dB at 80hz a lot easier than 145dB at 2khz. Our ears are less sensitive to lower frequencies, so it requires higher SPLs to sound "right".
Honestly, this is something I'd have to see before I believed it. As far as I know, SPLs that high not only will cause INSTANT deafness, I believe that it can also cause a whole host of immediate and serious injuries due to the rapid pressure changes and extreme vibration. Your internal organs can't take that kind of abuse.

Hmm, I think I mistyped something there.

I ment provided you do NOT sit in a car with that level of sound UNLESS you have hearing protection on.

I was talking about the guy like me who has a couple subs, there is some decent boom, but the focus is sound quality.

The system is played at a moderate level in most cases, and cranked up once in a while when the mood comes about for loud music.

Sorry for the confusion.

BTW I remember learning about the hairs in the ear. Brings back memories of high school.. (remembers days of non-adulthood and sighs)

Obviously any level of sound near 130+ dB for long periods of time, and probably even short periods of time will damage your hearing. Its common sence.

They guy I work with that I mentioned figures every system out there is only bass, and granted alot of them are, there are still many of us who build them for the ability to fully enjoy whatever music is being played. People like us are worried about imaging, the right mix of highs mids and lows, and all that good stuff. The ability to really turn up the system and rattle an unsuspecting passenger is just a fun side effect of such a system.

Sorry again for the confusion I caused.

Laters.

Actually I have experienced that.I stood next to a REALLY LOUD shop demo vehicle while they were playin Under the bridge and the long bass guitar notes made my heart start thumping harder in my chest. I actually had to step away from the truck to catch my breath.

Occupational Safety & Health Administration (OSHA) actually requires companies to provide hearing protection according to this chart...
TABLE G-16 - PERMISSIBLE NOISE EXPOSURES (1)
______________________________________________________________
|
Duration per day, hours | Sound level dBA slow response
____________________________|_________________________________
|
8...........................| 90
6...........................| 92
4...........................| 95
3...........................| 97
2...........................| 100
1 1/2 ......................| 102
1...........................| 105
1/2 ........................| 110
1/4 or less................| 115
____________________________|________________________________

OSHA also says "Exposure to impulsive or impact
noise should not exceed 140 dB peak sound pressure level."

So even listening to you radio at these lower db for a prolonged period of time can do some damage. Although it does take more time to do damage than listening to something at extreme levels.

Here is the site if anyone is interested
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad...ARDS&p_id=9735

its cool to sit in a car with a system that makes your nose tickle, your chest pound and your vision blurr to the point it looks like the earth is shaking but to drive around daily with the system that loud is just stupid.

not only will it damage your hearing but you wont be able to hear sirens or horns to get out of the way

Easy answer. If you listen to loud music for a long amount of time it can affect your hearing. Maybe reduce it. Simple answer. Dont crank your volume every time your driving. Personally I almost never put my alpine past 15-20 driving.

Nate

I usually have my volume at 15-20ish.

LOL, I run my Sony sometimes at a volume level of 32....maxed out and it's still quiet.....stupid sony

WHAT?

the human threshold of pain for hearing is 120 db. you are not supposed to exceed about 5 minutes of listening to anything at that level. anything higher is potentially dangerous just listening to it for a fraction of that time. just look at the numbers harry supplied above. look how fast the amount of allowable time drops compared to the spl. think realistically, though, its not that often that you listen to your music very loud and its usually not for very long.

i say just use some common sense. if it hurts your ears, turn it down. if your passenger has to scream to talk to you and you still cant hear them, TURN IT DOWN. be considerate to your pass also. they have to listen to the same volume as you do. everybody has heard loud music on loud systems so you dont have to try and impress anybody, unless of course they ask you to.

stay safe,
jacob

or you're showing them the hair trick

OSHA, good point. That is even mentioned in the MECP exam study guide.

the 2 hours at 100dB is the most common test question.

100dB is really pushing it for the human ear. You don't need to feel pain before your hearing is damaged, the safest way to really know is to actually meter the SPL level. Radio shack sells a cheap meter, better ones go for $120, still not as accurate as a professional grade unit.

BTW dB in amplifier gain is completly different than SPL level. SPL level is a physical comparison to the theoretical threshold of pain in humans.

The 'Fletcher-Munson' curve refers to human's lowered sensitivity to sounds at the upper and lower ends of the audible frequency spectrum. But a 25Hz to 125Hz even at the same SPL is a tough comparison to make....at 25Hz, you will start to feel it more than you can hear it.



I think the real question is does higher power cause hearing damage?

the answer is NO, the amplitude of the sound produced will destroy your hearing by turning the volume up, no matter how much power is produced.

No cheapo system will ever put out 100 or more SPL, but you will be more likely to turn it up since it is too weak to hear in the first place. You are better off with a quality high powered system that can 'fill' the car with music, full range, without ear piercing volume.

I would encourage everyone to get the facts on hearing damage before preaching ignorance to your friends, customers and yourselfs.

Damn i saw where you were from and i shuddered, I used to go out with a girl from there. She lived on harrower court.(I think thats what it was called) Man was she a psyco! I had fun with her car though

Back to the subject,Your right about the low powered systems, my uncle has one, he turns it up so much your ears hurt.And it sounds like crap.

good post

but i dont agree with this statement...almost any stock system in a newer car will produce quite a bit over 100 db under 80hz

This is kinda what I ment in addition to my above correction. Except, it was more of a badly set up high powered system I was aiming for in the original post.

BTW very impressive research done on the facts of sound and potential hearing damage. :hail:

That depends on your idea of cheap. You can hit 130dB for $250.

I personally don't need a very loud system. I prefer stock type location speakers with good quality sound. I can turn it up loud when I want to, but I am not going to hurt my hearing, or have a car that goes "thump, thump, buzz."

Take 100dB as a 'rough' figure.

I'm not an SPL guy, I've never actually measured and compared loud sounds with an SPL meter. Not that it's a bad idea to check anything you feel might be loud for competitions or just to be aware.

Sailors on the flight deck aboard Navy ships are required to wear 'double ear protection' during flight ops. Some of those aircraft reach those insane SPL levels of 175dB and non-sense like that! I don't care what frequency that is, you are going deaf if you leave your earprotection off. 100dB +/- is the 'silent killer' of your hearing, like I mentioned before, by the time you feel pain, it is too late. The best thing to do is leave or put on some earplugs at least. People at SPL events sit there with nothing and have their eardrums crumbled by these same SPL levels. Just be sure to save some money for some nice hearing aids while you are spending hundreds to make your subs louder than a military fighter jet.

I'm a SQ guy...if I can hear it, it's cool! I don't need my car to be shaking to pieces to enjoy the bass. 500-1000 watts is plenty of low end for me, I could care less about the actual SPL of the bass notes as long as they roll through my car (or house) properly.

as for stock systems putting out 130 dB....under 80 Hz, I'm not sure I'd care for it. I haven't even heard it and it already sounds like crap. I would rather not smell the burning circuitry either.

A running jet engine is around 130 DB. Being an aircraft mechanic, I'm around jet engines all day long. I couldn't imagine listening to something that's 142DB in my car. The space shuttle taking off is 150DB. Crazy. There are basically two types of heariing loss. You can have damage to the three bones in your ear, or ear drum, or some other physical condition, and these problems can potentially be reversed with surgery or hearing aids. Then there is nerve damage like was described in previous posts. Nothing, not even a hearing aid can repair it. Most people that are deaf and don't use hearing aids have a nerve problem of some sort in their ear. Also, you know when you see video of the space shuttle, or a huge NASA rocket taking off, and there's water pouring down the sides of it? This breaks up the sound waves and lowers the DB level to about 150. Anything over 150 could damage the shuttle. So, you're listening to music in your car that's loud enough to be on the threshold of what would damage the space shuttle. Imagine what it's doing to your ears. Matt

ive heard the space shuttle is 150 and also heard that its 180...personally i think its closer to 180 because there are vehicles capable of breaking the 180 mark in the next couple years if not this year.

Amen. SQ is so much better than all BASS. :hail:

I've been a working musician for my entire adult life (I am 31), and I am here to tell you that hearing loss caused by prolonged exposure to loud sound is NO JOKE.

Do some reading on the medical condition known as tinnitus. Ever been to a Metallica concert? When you go home and try to sleep afterward, you know how there's a ringing sound in your ears that sounds like a jet engine? Welcome to my nightmare, twenty-four-seven. It's all fun and games and rock and roll....until it doesn't ever go away and drives you absolutely bat****-insane, and you have to start taking sleeping pills to hold down a job. None other than Pete Townsend Himself had to quit rock and roll because of tinnitus caused by standing in front of Hiwatt amplifier stacks for years and years with whiskey-numbed ears.

Hearing loss is one of those things that sneaks up on you, like the story about boiling a frog. You don't realize it's happening because your ears go a little numb after a bit...so you turn it up a little louder...a little louder... You know how if you leave your car with the radio turned on and turned up, when you get back into your car and start it the radio seems ridiculously loud? Think about that long and hard.

I'm sorry to preach, I don't mean to take all the **** out of enjoying a righteous stereo system. Just be aware, the consequences are VERY real and VERY permanent. There's an advocacy group called H.E.A.R. that can provide lots of info on the subject.

JC

No.

No.

No no no no no. A thousand times no. You don't have to be stupid, or listen to mega-extreme sound levels to suffer permanent hearing damage. The level of sound it takes to damage your hearing is a WHOLE HELL OF A LOT lower than you probably think it is.

As mentioned above, distortion, or how your system is set up (right? wrong? good? bad?) plays absolutely no part in this discussion.

Good news for bassheads: loud bass won't cause quite as much damage as loud midrange or loud high sounds. This is because your ears are designed to pick up mids the strongest, centered around 1k I guess. These are the frequencies of human speech. This is the first thing to go when your hearing becomes damaged by listening to loud cymbals, vocals, rock guitars, trumpets, etc. The unfortunate result is that it's harder to understand what people are saying. You cannot hear percussive and consonant sounds (t's, p's, etc.) as well as you could before, so everything sounds like a big blur of vowels and you end up saying "huh?" all the damn time.

Blah blah blah, so if you ride around with your stereo jacked up all the time, you will instantly go deaf, your hair will fall out, your stock will plummet, and your lawn will die...

Nah. You'll probably be "basically fine," meaning you WILL suffer hearing loss, but not to any debilitating degree. You will have to turn up the TV a little louder to make out what the news anchor is sayting, and you will tend to speak a little louder in restaurants, and your squeaky brakes just won't bother you quite as much as the years go by. But, you may or may not notice. I mean, people have been doing it for years, right? Not one single reported fatality, or one documented case of ear-cancer, right?

The only reason I'm going on and on is because so many people have such a hillbilly attitude about this subject: "aw, it ain't a-gonna hurt nuthin!" Yeah, well every time my dad changes his oil and dumps the used oil on the GROUND, he says exactly the same thing. Happy listening.

JC

Its a good thing my system only clocks in at 128 then.
and i rarely ever play it at full power. but it has frikken SQ up the ****.

Being exposed to 115dB without the use of hearing protection could cuase hearing damage after a period of 15 minutes.

That comes straight from my MECP Certification book - the test you have to pass to install car audio.

I know what your talking about JC... I've had that ringing in my ear for four years now..... Lucky me it's only in my right ear....
My ringing came from target shooting with a Tech 9..... I could not hear anything that night after we were shooting it.... It took several days to regain most of my hearing....
Still cannot hear very well in my right ear........ And that damn ringing 24/7.......................................

Tim

AWWW MAAAAAAN!! You let your dad dump his Oil on the GROUND? That's it!! Somebody call GreenPeace we gotta shut this guy down!!

one quart of oil will contaminate 100,000 gallons of water.

that's the most nastiest degenerate thing that one could do. Leave the real pollution to the corporations, especially those operating on foriegn soil.

The least we can do is contain our used oil, it can be burned for heat and therfore should never cost anything to get rid of.

For the topic, hearing damage will creep up on you in some strange ways, it's nothing to underestimate.

to enter a SQ contest you're vehicle has to be above 130db