I like the look of the pods (Q-forms, but they're way pricey. Are they worth the money, or is there a better place to find sound. I'm not after a ground shaker system, just good sound with a neutral image.


------------------
I heard somewhere that you can modify these cars?!?!

 

If you want good imaging, kick panel pods are worth every penny. I went one step further than Q-logic pods and I constructed my own. I had the liberty to place the drivers exactly where they imaged best in my car. The result is a dead-stable image with vocals dead center in the middle of my windshield from both front seats. I couldn't be happier.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

I have the Q-Forms, and yes, I think that they are worth the money - imaging may not be as perfect as with custom built pods, but it is a sight better than not using kicks.

 

Jim, I've seen your page showing your custom boxes. They look great (I've also seen the post calling then expensive, but, I agree, you probably get what you pay for). Are you in the custom built pods market, too?

By the way, in the tech article about stereo installation, there is a slight omission. I just installed a Kenwood KDC-8015 in my '91 Firebird. Everything was great until I tried to slide the unit in. There is a piece of plastic in the back of the radio area with a hole in it. It's apparently there to hold the stock radio in place, since the stock radio had a matching appendage. We had to get out a screwdriver and hammer and break that piece off.

 

The 91 must be different than the older ones. My 86 didn't have that piece, although the radio still bumped the heat ducts, so I had to cut them to slide the radio back. I had to do major surgery to make my Kenwood fit, including relocating the rear bracket that holds the console to the floor, but my Kenwood is deeper than most, and I also sunk it into the dash, so I needed a LOT more room. If anybody with a 91 or 92 can take pictures of their dash hole in it's stock condition, I'd appreciate it. Then I can update that article.

As for the custom pods, there's a chance that I may build another pair for my GTA, and if I do, I'll probably make a mold so I can start mass-producing them. I'll be sure to let everybody know if I do.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

Jim, I would be very interested in those kick panels of yours too! They look even more factory than the Q-forms.

 

Actually, that piece may not always be in the way. The stereo shop gave me a universal GM installation kit that I didn't think would work. So, when it didn't fit right I assumed it was the kit. I had mounted the kit upside down (the dumbarse way). My friend (who used to be an installer!) and I thought that the mount holes on the kit were centered. They were really mounted a little bit to one side. The unit was 1/2 an inch too low in the radio slot. If I had done it right the first time it might have mounted high enough to miss that part. I just found that out today. One thing is for sure, I'm going to try all different ways before I charge back into the Kenwood shop and tell the guy he doesn't know his stuff again.

 

They sound really good, just hope you dont have a stick, cus you'll be kicking them all the time

------------------
LS1 Killer!
Jeremy
1989 Firebird Formula L98 350
BBK 52mm TB
Edelbrock headers and 3" Cat-back Flowmaster
K&N cone filter
Free mods
MSD/Taylor ignition
Jet AFPR
150 shot NOS
Kenny Brown subframes
Hotchkis lower control arms, panhard and strut tower brace.
Eibach Pro-kit springs
Polygraphie bushings
Monroe SensoTrac shocks/struts
12.63@109.95 NOS
14.40@95.28 motor


L98Formula@yahoo.com

 

Jims boxes aren't that expensive. I have been quoted MUCH more than what he is charging. IMO his are a awesome deal.

 

for the loudest most crisp highs mount speakers near the winshield. down in the panels wont be as loud and clear

------------------
1983 CHEVROLET CAMARO with a 1986
305 C.I.D.V8 BORED .030 OVER
HIGH VOLUME OIL PUMP
FLAT-TOP PISTONS
MILD CAM
3" CAT BACK EXHAUST W/ FLOWMASTER MUFFFLER
KEYSTONE CLASSIC WHEELS.
B&M RATCHET SHIFTER
STAGE THREE SHIFT KIT
(she'll spin em into third)

MUSTANGS SUCK

 

Actually, that's a matter of opinion. With the speakers mounted on the dash, the sound reflects off of the glass, which results in a very harsh sound. If you like it that way then great, but by going down to the kicks in addition to the much better imaging, the sound is much smoother and more natural.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

Anyone Know where i can get some panels that go on the door for a 91 bird,
for like some 6.5 or sixinch woofers

Thnx

------------------
91 FireBird 305 V-8
no true mods,
ghetto rigged cold air intake,
People dont have a soul, its just something parents made up to frighten little children, like the boogie man, or micheal jackson..."

GheTTo Riggers INC.
We Make Mcgyver look Like Crap

 

There aren't any 'pre made' panels for thirdgen doors. If you have power windows, the doors need to be built out the full depth of the speaker, which to me looks pretty bulky. If you don't have power windows, you can squeeze the mid in the lower front corner of the door.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

nutzos,

But isnt that kinda good? cause then you could position them better to get more imaging?

 

nutzos, Well, wouldnt that be kinda a good thing cause then you could get better imaging?

 

When in dash it may seem louder, but there uneven to your ears. Most pro.s will say pods because it puts the sound stage futher and more even to a persons view.

 

with proper system set up the highs will be louder and clear when relfeceted off of the winshield. i hate it when ssit in a car and i car heat that the music is coming from the bottom of the car. when coming from the dash, the music surrounds you better

just my opinion though



------------------
1983 CHEVROLET CAMARO with a 1986
305 C.I.D.V8 BORED .030 OVER
HIGH VOLUME OIL PUMP
FLAT-TOP PISTONS
MILD CAM
3" CAT BACK EXHAUST W/ FLOWMASTER MUFFFLER
KEYSTONE CLASSIC WHEELS.
B&M RATCHET SHIFTER
STAGE THREE SHIFT KIT
(she'll spin em into third)

MUSTANGS SUCK

 

If your kicks are set up properly, it doesn't sound like it's coming from the floor. In my car the soundstage is at windshield height.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

I'm not so sure I want the sound coming from the windshield, if you mean it sounds like it's coming at you from the front. I would rather the sound just sort of exist in the middle of the car, ya know? Not really coming from any one particular direction.

Right now I only have the Kenwood deck and Kenwood 6x9's, along with the factory 4x6's in the front. After I change the front speakers would I be better off with the kick panels or some light subs? I don't think the 6x9's give enough depth to the bass. I don't like window shaking bass, but I like to be able to hear it. I listen to a lot of different stuff, but mostly Metallica, Anthrax, Kid Rock and Ministry.

 

You'd like Stinger

Him and I got into a huge misunderstanding that started with our differing opinions on front staging. I prefer my music to some from a realistic and stable soundstage at some distance in front of me. Ideally I'd like my soundstage to be about 4' in front of my windshield, but my system ain't that good. He prefers the all-over-the-place style of sound that you're looking for.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

Then it sounds like we have a winner! Subs, subs, subs. Now I'm gonna have to go through and review the 2 dozen or so "what subs should I get?" posts.

 

Jim, I just read that entire "misunderstanding" between you and Stinger. It made me scared to listen to music at all! Staging, imaging and channels, OH MY!

 

Don't worry about it. The one point that I've made over and over that Stinger is too thick to identify is that just because that stuff is important to me doesn't mean that I look down on other people that aren't as concerned. Just enjoy your music. That's what it's all about. If you get as amazingly picky as I am in the future, deal with it then. To me, imaging and staging is very important, but to most people it's not (as Stinger so aptly proved over and over and over and over and... well, you get the idea).

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

Actually there are/were. I have a set of AutoForms door pods/panels. They cover/replace the entire carpeted area of the door. Mine are a black textured plasic which matches the interior. The speaker cover is wrapped in a grey cloth to match the grey carpet and seats. It houses a set of MB Quart 6.5" seperates. Some may consider it bulky, but many who don't know better think it was OEM for the car. The imaging is great too.

Matt '91RS TPI

 

That sounds pretty good. When I read that Jim thought door panel pods would be too bulky, I kind of wondered if that were true. I always defer to Jim in matters of car audio, though, so I dared not question . My 91 Firebird has map pockets and cup holders on the door and I can't see how speaker pods would be any bulkier than that. Of course, I would hate to lose my only excuses for a glove box and cup holders in favor of speakers. For that reason I would probably go with the kick panel pods. Which reminds me, the fourth-gen cars have speakers mounted on -not in- the door panel. I wonder if those enclosures could be made to work on a third-gen?

 

The 4th gen doors are totally different. Even though the speaker may be mounted to the door panel, it's still necessary to have clearance in the door.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

Ok, I just wanna pipe in my $.02 here.

Regarding the sound coming from the floor. Not true with a well designed system. I can drive with my T's off and still have a windshield height sound stage. But this also has to do with the rest of the setup as well. If you have a speaker that has a poor off-axis response and/or your kicks are setup poorly, then yes it will sound like it comes from the floor.

The downside to putting speakers in the dash is that the path length between each R & L speaker is wwaaaaay uneven so if imaging is a concern for you, then don't go that route. When speakers are mounted so that one is signifigantly closer to you than the other, you will hear the right or left channel first and that will in effect make the sound stage appear to be coming from the right or left of center rather than from the center of the car itself (rear view mirror area).

If imaging is less of a concern and you just want it to sound good without caring where it is coming from...look into a set of 4" seperates mounted on a plate for the dash rather than a a 4x6. (This is based on if you have an amplifier, if you don't have an amp, stay with the 4x6 plates as a head unit will not adaquatley power a set of component speakers)

A good 4" component set will give you a more accurate mid-bass response (as much as you can get from a 4" speaker anyway) and better tonal accuracy.

Kicks on the other hand give you the ability to provide an enclosure for a good 5.25" or 6.5" speaker. This in turn will give you very good mid-bass response that comes from the same location as the rest of the sound. My opinion is that all mid's/high's from the front and the mid-bass coming from behind you presents a rather annoying listening experiance. I want all of my music to appear to come from the same general location. After all, would you want to listen to a performance with the guitar, vocals and horns coming from in front of you while the drummer and bassist are off behind you somewhere? (heh, cheap mans surround sound)

That being said, it all comes down to personal opinion and preference. If you don't like the opinion someone gives you then don't take their advice. But I would recomend at least entertaining the opinions of those of us who have been around the industry for some time. Usually we've been there a few times in the past and have a good outlook on many issues.

L8rs

Carl
CarAudio Resources
http://www.caraudioresources.net

 

What sort of modifications/difficulties will I face trying to install separates in the dash? What sort of amp would I need to drive them? Where should I mount the amp? I've decided on a self-powered tube for the rear, which will provide all the base that I will ever need. If component speakers in the dash will sound better - and by that I mean provide better range - I'd like to go with that after the tube. I don't want to have to do any modificatios to the underdash area.

 

A good set of seperates such as Boston Acoustic or JL or the like would do the trick. Try to get something with a shallow mountin depth.

Take your original 4x6, trace it out on a piece of 3/8" MDF and this will form the plate. Cut out the mounting holes for the 4" and tweet on this plate. (There should be just enough room) and drop that in the original factory opening. Just dump the x-over anywhere under the dash that it'll fit and run the wires from there.

I forget which side is more shallow in the dash, but you definately need to keep the 4" off to one side or the other for clearance of the magnet.

As far as an amp goes, personal preference at this point. You shouldn't need more than 25x2 or so from a good quality manufacturer. Just make sure you get something with a built in high pass crossover if you dont' have any other means to crossover the system. You will need to keep the signal from around 120hz and up to a 4".

Hope this helps a little.

Carl

 

Think this would do the trick? And would they require an amplifier also?

http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S...084621CF&o=&a=

 

Something like that would do the trick fine I would think.

Those in particular would not necessairly need an amplifier, but wouldn't complain if you did decide to put a low power amp on them. They'd only benefit if you did.

I would look into the 600hz or so high pass crossover for them as well. (They call them bass blockers, really just an inline capacitor of around 68uF value) They are recomending an 800hz, but I think that's a bit too high. This will keep the low end bass from causing damage to the mid.

Carl
CarAudio Resources
http://www.caraudioresources.net

 

Even 600hz seems quite excessive. By that frequency range you are capable of clearly localizing the sound, so it's going to pull your midbass image back by running that high of a pass. I have the Boston 746 plates running in my 86, and they're running 80hz and up, simply because that's where the non-adjustable crossover on the amp is set. Even at that frequency, the bass is filtered out adequately enough that the speakers do not experience much excursion and do not get any powerful bass. I've had the speakers for going on 7 or 8 years now and they're still working great. In a previous installation I had a 300hz hi-pass on them with a pair of 8" midbass speakers in my 6x9 location. Male vocals were not as realistic and the midbass image was a mess. When I do demos in my sound booth with those infinity plates, I run them full range, but I would suggest a 100 to 150hz high-pass for them in a car.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

I'd agree with Jim if he's had hands on experiance with these speakers. I recomended about 600 just because I hadn't ever used them and didn't know what they were capable of. The web site that he sent us to was trying to claim 800 and that's flat out rediculous.

Anything over about 90-100hz you can very easily localize. But if you think about it, you are still dealing with the limitations of a 4" speaker. That's why my argument for kicks still stands. Much easier to drop a 5" in a nice sealed kick and run it down to 60hz or so.

Carl

 

Hey, I just wanna say thanks guys. All of this is very new to me and I wouldn't have had any idea about what was worthwhile without your advice. Since I want my stereo to sound good, I think I'll go ahead and spend some money and go with some nice stuff. I'm thinking about some decent 4x6's in the dash that offer good mid-high range. Some kick panels w/ a 6" or so and a powered tube for the hatch. All I need to do now is iron out the little things like small amps, crossovers and wiring type things. There are a lot of things I never would have considered without your advice. Like I've said many times before, I'm not into thuderous bass, but I do want a nice sounding system (I'm sorry, Jim, but I do want the sound flying at me from all different directions). I really think you guys are gonna help me get there. Ok, ~sniff~ I love you guys!

[This message has been edited by Da91Bird (edited February 25, 2001).]