Ok, I have seen many people do and and personally heard one. I like the way they look but i geard the don't sound the greatest. Is that because of the the extensive amount of space behind them? I could build a custom boxt to fit down in there. Also I seen one with the subs angled foward I like that too. Does that improve the sound any? Also I like to look at pics so If you have a plate install please post pictures. Oh yeah one more question. I do have the cargo cover for my car but I would rather not have the amp sticking out so could I put it in where the jack went? There are vents there and maybe I could hook up a bunch of fans to keep everything cool.

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/001389.html

This post was kinda the same. Look at my pic through the link in there.

 

Plates sound so bad because a speaker needs to have the rear sound wave completely isolated from the front wave (except in ported designs, but they're more complicated to explain and don't matter for the sake of this discussion). When you just slap a plate down there, it can not isolate the front and rear waves, because it doesn't even come close to being a true "sealed" enclosure. The bass sounds extremely sloppy, and can not get loud at all. A single 10" tube will sound better and out pound a pair of 12s on a plate no matter how much power they're getting. A single 12" sub in a box can be made to fit in the same space as a plate, and sound substantially better. Here's a couple pics of a box I built for a friend's Trans Am. It winds up taking up less space than a plate because the amps are flush mounted right into it.



------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

Here is a pic of my sub plate. Never mind the cheap @ss speakers, they do ok. I am working on getting some MTX8000's to go in it and a different amp. The amp I have now is mounted under the plate, and yes it cools fine and believe me it has seen some hot days.

 

Can you post the demisions of that box... I like that set up. Did you just run the power wires under the car or what?...Though I have 2 Rocks I was thinking of mounting one facing rearward like you have and the other up.



------------------
Kills to date a 3.1 firebird 2 stop lights in a row.
95 Grand Am
Serveral Honda's
a friends 91 Rustang LX(I know its a 4 but he keeps trin')

Planned mods:
Soon coming 3 inch exhaust, 1.6 rockers, High flow 'Verter, and Ignition system. Along with a complete turbo 4.3 swap planned later this year(hoping to get into the 10's..)
Current mods:
Set of Iroc sway bars front and rear..amazing differance, Air box bottom completely removed allowing my K&N to act like an open element filter.
Lower profile tires, 195/55/15 front 205/55/15 rear handles better.
And a 160 deg thermo for a V8(and yes it works just fine)

Sterio Sony CD head unit and 9 band EQ, Boston acutics 4x6 dash, Alpine 3 way 6x9 sail, California sounds active crossover, Kroiiler 600 watt amp powering the 'pines and Bostons, 600 watt Jensen powering 2 Rockord Fosgate RFZ1812 subs. And all this cost less then $575...

 

Sorry, I don't give out my box dimensions. A little time with a tape measure and you'll have all you need.

The wires just tuck under the upper lip of the box, then run under the plastic side panels that cover the spare tire, and the same one on the other side, then run through the interior in a normal manner.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

Your right Jim. Mine sounds like crap. I hate it. I wish I was smart. I wish I had a degree in physics. I wish mine made more than 121db with a Punch 100 and Alpine 25x4 with the volume on my JVC set all the way up to 30 when it goes to 50. Golly, just how stupid can I be?

Next time maybe I'll just go to Radio Shack and buy a 300w EQ. Then it'll sound good. Then I won't have to worry about my wife getting to the spare tire when she gets a flat. I'll just get rid of the spare and put a can of FIX-A-FLAT in there for her. Then I can get two 15" Realistics running off that EQ. I think a 100lb box will help me at the drag strip. That way it'll have more weight over the rear wheels for better traction. Then I'll have to get a spare back glass so I can replace it when it breaks from all the bass. Boy, what would I do without this web site?

No sparks intended, but some of us aren't looking to compete nationally. BTW, that 121db is right. Had it in a local car show. Huh? Not bad for a crappie plate. No I didn't win. I lost by 3db to a guy that had 3 10" JLs in a S10 ext. cab in the 300w and under class. Maybe if I had a box I would've won, but I don't want a box. Just like voices, everyone's opinion is a little different. You are correct on the facts about boxes, but mine sounds fine for me.

------------------
92 RS w/t-tops 305 TBI Auto.
170K miles and don't burn a drop o'oil
-K&N Truck filter #1500 w, open ele.
air cleaner
-Dynomax 2 1/2" cat-back
-B&M TransPak
-Jet Stage2 Chip
-180* T-Stat w/ 185* Fan Switch
-JVC CD--Alpine speakers & 4ch. amp
Rockford 2ch. to 2 MTX 12" subs

 

Since you feel compelled to show me how smart you are, I guess I'll respond:

A single 10" sub in a tube can far exceed 121dB in an f-body.

Where the volume is set on your deck is completely arbitrary. It means nothing on it's own. If your gains were set properly, your amp would reach it's maximum undistorted output at the same point where your deck reaches it's maximum undistorted output. Since alpine decks play clean through the RCAs at max volume, that means if your gain was set properly you'd reach your maximum output with the deck maxed.

FYI, a 10" tube weighs less than 2 subs on a plate.

I'm glad yours sounds fine for you, but next time you're going to try to show me up, think a little harder about what your motivations are. I made no comments or took any shots that were supposed to offend you or upset you or in any other way **** you off, but you found it necessary to get bent out of shape and teach me a lesson.

Like I said before, I don't write all this crap because I like the sound my keyboard makes when I pound on it. This is stuff that I deal with every day, and I've got a tremendous amount of car audio experience, especially with thirdgens. I own 3 currently and have owned more in the past. Every single one has had multiple stereo setups. I've had plates, I've had small boxes, big boxes, you name it, I had it. I know what works in these cars and what doesn't and I know WHY they do or don't work. I'm here to help. I don't expect you to agree with everything I say, but I at least expect you to respect it.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

no. what you said is totally irrelevant to the topic. We are now all dumber for infact taking the time to read that response.

plates do not sound good. the only way you can get good bass that the subs are able to produce is by having them in the proper enclosure.

again, plates are no good.

kev

 

The only reason I didn't turn it up all the way was for the lack of funds to replace anything if I did damage. I'm sure I could've turned it up more, but I didn't. And I wasn't trying to show you up. I have no regard for such imature actions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the one that has a comment about Fords being so slow on your sig? So are you saying that you can beat any Ford that you come across? And who said anything about a tube? You don't have one. That is if the car in these pics is yours. And I'm sorry, but a 10" tube may be louder than 2 12"s on a plate, but not with the same power going to them. That is simple geometery. I had 2 8" Bazookas before I had this plate. They were just as loud, but nowhere near as smooth. Plus they took up all kinds of usable room. My goal is practicality, not to show anyone up. And no I'm not pissed, just a little more open minded than others. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Just because there's always a better way to do things doesn't make all the others wrong. And not everyone cares about LOUD. I don't. That's just the only competition they had that day.

And yes, I'm glad with mine. That's really all that matters, isn't it? So I guess camaro6spd, you do what you want. Obviously not everyone can agree about one thing. That's what makes this country great.

 

Well then I asked for a simple amount of info and you blew me off. From now on just do not reply to any of my questions...What an pompus a$$ you are... You just find yourself so much higher then everyone else...

 

So in your own words you say your here to help huh?... Then why won't you help with what you have done to get a good sounding system?...You just say "get a tape measure and figure it out for yourself", Umm hello if I knew everything about subs and boxes I would not have asked in the first place. I again say your a pompus a$$....

Sorry not done quite yet. If I had lots of hours and money to waste buying wood and tring to see what does work I would not have asked either.
But back in the real world where people have to work regular hours Till 6 PM, I just don't have the time to waste. I have more important things to do with my time then to waste it tring to find what box deminsions and thickness and what not that works right.
You may just find by simply answering a fuc(king question you can actually help someone. And not make yourself look like an a$$...


[This message has been edited by Camaro_hunter_d (edited June 20, 2001).]

 

Guess I've got a million things to respond to, so I'll go in order.
Just a humorous quote from a song I like. Try not to take everything so seriously chief.

Wanna bet?
I've got a ball sack too, but I don't have a picture of that on the internet either.
Wanna bet? 20 watts or 2000 watts to a plate won't make a difference because without the damping of a proper box, the subs are going to reach their maximum excursion with very little power. I had a pair of 12" subs on a plate and my cheesy 50 watt Jensen could bottom them out. If I put my Kicker ZR600 to them, they still would have bottomed out with the exact same amount of power.

I won't argue with that. I hate how Bazookas sound, and their internal amps are VERY weak.

Why? Because I won't give you my box dimensions? I sell those boxes to make a living, so I'm shooting myself in the foot if I give out my plans. Find a resturant that has a "special sauce" and see if they give you the recipe. And I'll be honest, these boxes are difficult to build. If you can't design it, there's no way in hell you're going to be able to build it. Plus, I don't have a set of "plans" that I can just give you. I've got a few dimensions scribbled on a sheet of paper, and the rest I build to suit the particular application.
I'll help, but I'm not giving handouts. There's a difference. I'll spend a week on this board to help you track down a noise problem, but I'm not going to go to your house and do it for you! Neither will the other guys here, so don't single me out.
I see you now find it necessary to start name-calling.
I work until 5:00, drive an hour to get home, then build subwoofer boxes all night. So, I don't have time to whip up a custom set of plans for everybody that asks. But whatever. That's not why I don't give out my box dimensions. I already explained why I don't.

I spend a ton of time on this board doing my best to help people. Most appreciate it, some don't. I'll live with it. I do my best to help people, but I don't have the time or the motivation to do everything for people, and I don't like it when somebody gets all pissed off at me for it. I don't care at all if you disagree or have a different opinion. That's what life is all about. I'll sit here and debate with you all night, especially if it will help others. But, when you get pissed off and insult me because I don't agree with you or I'm not willing to give you charity, it gets under my skin. I've done nothing to be disrespectful to you, so why must you be to me?

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

[This message has been edited by Jim85IROC (edited June 20, 2001).]

 

Just remember Camaro_hunter_d that it's closed minded "pros" that make me feel good about myself. Real pros are open to trying new things. Look at NASCAR engine builders. They are always trying new things to make more power. I guess that makes them amateurs, huh?

As far as the ******* comment, that's the kinda immature comments that I was referring to earlier. (Including the pompous a$$ part. That was not needed.) I never said anything about my tubes having an internal amp either. Now you are making your own assumptions. I guess some people can go through life like that. Not me. And I was referring to the pic that YOU posted. Then, outta the blue, you make a comment about tubes. Anything that you feel needed to prove your point I guess.

BTW, if you would like to put some soapy water around my plate and check for air leaks, so be it. I never said that my set up was flawless. Hell, our cars are always flawed. Anything perfect would be in heaven. But for the time and money I spent, it sounds damn good. Again, just my 2¢. I don't have a pink noise graph to refer the sound to, but MY ear is all that matters. It's MY system, and I like it.

 

goddamn, what a bunch of cry babies.

-Do you realize that you just told the most knowledgable person on this board never to answer one of your questions again?

-plates suck, you know they suck, stop crying.

-and if you had half a brain, you would go to JL's website, or one of the other Million websites and look up various dimensions for Camaro Subwoofer Boxes.

-Jim, i bet you could GIVE them the dimensions, they still wouldnt be able to build it i bet!

kev

p.s. - dont even try calling me any names, lets act like we're all actually old enough to drive our camaros we all own

p.s.s.- do a grammar check on your next reply, Jesus

 

I guess just another immature response. And why would you refer to anyone on here as Jesus? And exactly which grammar issue are you referring to? I didn't know we were in English class. There is a diff between proper grammar and conversational grammar.

And I'm sorry if I gave anyone on here the idea that boxes suck, OR that I don't know how to build one. I JUST DON'T WANT TO!!!!! And I don't want to say that plates are better than boxes. I NEVER SAID THAT EITHER!!! I don't compete, so I have no need for it. Why can't you accept that? Closed minded maybe?

 

Assumption #1: "And who said anything about a tube? You don't have one". Just because I don't have one in the picture doesn't mean I don't have a tube or had a tube in the past.

Assumption #2: "but a 10" tube may be louder than 2 12"s on a plate, but not with the same power going to them"

The plate sealing isn't necessarily the problem. Unless you seal and reinforce every single piece of plastic, their joints, and the spot where they contact the carpet, then it's not anywhere close to tight. My plate was so tight that I had to pound it into place, but the air still leaked through all the gaps in the plastic, and through the hatch pull-down motor opening.

Anyway AJ, I'm not sure why you got bent out of shape to begin with, because the original comments I made were simply my personal suggestions and did not in any way have anything to do about or toward you. I made my original post to offer my opinion and to give Camaro6spd another option that he might want to consider. That's it! I wasn't being an *** , and I wasn't being a smart *** . Then Camaro_Hunter asked me for the dimensions, and I declined as politely as I could. My tape measure comment was not meant as rude, but apparently that's how some of you guys took it. It was said with complete honesty and that's it. I answered his other question in just as straight-forward of a manner. That's when you responded all bent out of shape. I never even said anything to you at that point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It wasn't until then that I got sarcastic. So call me whatever name you want, and feel however you want about me, but if you reread this thread from the beginning, you'll see that this thread was getting along perfectly fine until you decided to get bent out of shape.

Camaro_Hunter, how did I blow you off. I gave you a response. Just because I'm not willing to give you my design doesn't mean that I'm a ***** or an pompus a$$ as you put it.

I think that both of you need to grow up a little bit and realize that everybody else isn't here to serve your every whim.



------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

Well I never once argued with you. Never said a plate was as good as a box. NEVER!! And I NEVER called you any names. It's just that you would rather criticize others instead of just simply giving him ideas. My stereo tastes are not as strict as yours, and I was just being sarcastic with the whole Radio Shack thing. IMO, I can still build a box for mine, IF I WANTED TO. I know that it's a better setup than the plate, but I don't care!!! (And yes, I do know how) All I was trying to do was make sure that Camaro_hunter didn't have to be TOLD what he HAS to do. Sometimes you can get by without breaking the bank, or your back springs.

I never asked for your opinion or that you serve my every whim. And you don't know me, so please don't say that I need to grow up. You need to try and sound like your not so superior to us that we should listen to your every opinion. It's just that you sound like an 80 yr old man who's set in his ways. I don't know you, or anything about you, so how would I know that you know what your talking about? Yea, I'm open to new ideas and opinions, but I don't make others feel as though their opinions don't matter. I just wrote facts about my stereo SPL level. Again, I didn't ask you if a tube sounds better, or how to make mine louder, or claim that mine was the best. I was just trying to give this guy other options. That's all. No offense intended, none taken. As they say, roll with the punches. Sorry. I'll just take my ball and go home!!

P.S. I did defend your honor (without knowing you) by telling him not to call you a pompous a$$. Doesn't that matter anymore? What ever happened to chivalry? HEHE!!! If I made my living doing it, I wouldn't have given him the specs either. But you could still have told him how to calculate it. Maybe he don't know.

 

Jim you may build boxes for a living hey thats fine and great. But to just say get a tape measure and deal with it yourself is being quite arrogent. You said you would help people find a "noise" but won't give help on what boxes sound good? that in itself is pompus.

And for the other that said I was blowing off one of the most knowalagable people on the board I am happy to do that if he won't give some basic advise as to a box that sounds good. And I must say if Jim always replies like this as in 3 posts' that I have read I don't want the "advise" HE GIVES. You could find more direct advise from a dali lamma.
Hell I went buy a local sound shop and they were more then happy to help. And quess what they charged....nothing.


And as for the name calling yes it was unneccesary but I had had it at that point.

 

Certainly, and I appreciate it.

That's harder than it sounds. To just throw out box plans won't do a lot of good, because the boxes need to be built to accomodate specific speaker parameters. Custom designing a box like that takes a LOT of time. It's all simple geometry (Triangles and cubes), but it takes a LONG time to work out. But, it truely is all about taking a ruler and measuring.
I certainly attempted to use more tact than the way you put it. I can see how you were able to take it like you did, but that's not how it was meant. It was meant to be serious. Take 5 minutes with a tape measure and a clip board, and before you know it you'll have all the important dimensions you need.
Walk into a stereo shop, and tell them that you have no plans to buy anything, but you would like them to design a box for you free of charge. See what they say.

I'll be more than happy to provide help on what makes a box sound good. That's VERY different than asking for plans. If you would like information on what makes a box sound good, just ask for it. I'd be more than willing to help.


------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

Without knowing exactly what your setup is going to involve, how you want it too look, what YOUR ear likes, it would be impossible for Jim to give you dimensions that would mean **** to you anyway. I can't believe that anyone would attack someone for not giving out box dimensions. Wood is cheap, it doesn't take long to use the tape measure.. just measure several times, cut once.

I understand that not everyone has access to a degreed engineer, or otherwise knowledgeable persons. I myself measured dimensions for my own box, went so far as to make a styrofoam mock up, only to find I ****ed up somewhere(after I made 2 cuts in the wood.) So I asked my father for help(degree in mechanical engineering, and professional musician at one time.) He also wouldn't take the measurements for me, but he did make suggestions, like offseting the speaker slightly from the center, and ideas for anchoring the box down... but he didn't take the tape measure and figure it all out for me.. and he's my DAD. Now once I figured it out for the most part, I came to him with a CONCEPT, and he helped me turn that concept into a PLAN. I did all the cuts w/ a 10" circular saw and a dremel w/ router bits, so you don't NEED all the fance table saws and ****, just be smooth. maybe if someone were to give Jim a concept, and ask if in his OPINION it would sound good, or provide the kind of response desired, he would provide some suggestions to make that concept a plan. I don't know, I haven't asked JIM. I just know when people ask me for mechanical advice, on a service that I preform regularly, I don't hand out a step by step direction sheet, I have to eat too. Maybe questions need to be thought out a little better before they are asked, then maybe you'll get the answer you're looking for. Just my $.02. Don't attack me, I won't respond to petty insults, I have not insulted anyone, and if for some reason I have, I am sorry my suggestions offend you.

Anthony.

p.s no one can say that I favor Jim in any way, he has never responded to one of my audio posts, however I understand where he is coming from.

 

Actually I go to Sterio One in Carbondale Illinois for my Q&A stuff, and they have been more than acomidating with help and advise. And the kicker is I have spent maybe 20 bucks in 2 years there. They actually care about customer service/satisfaction, while I am not one of your customers and likely never will be, I do not expect you to understand that.
And yes they actually gave me some good points on where to start, Basic deminsions and such. And I have gone to several sites looking for different camaro boxes, but I liked the way that particular box looked. And I have 2 RFZ1812's NOT JBL's...Just FYI.
And yet again I reiterate that I would not take any advise you would even give at this point. This board is for helping others, period. When people ask me for something I tell them everything I know about what could solve their problem, you however do not see it that way. Too bad, You may very well be knowlagable on what sounds goon in our cars (as you claimed earlier) But at this point I would rather waste my time building and see what happens, then to take any advise from you.


And by the way my 2 rock's sound pretty damn good mounted it a shallow plate in my well...

 

Can't we all just get along and help each other. We aren't having a contest here. I didn't go through these posts to hear people bicker.
As far as the topic posted goes, I posted a pic of my plate at the top and yes I can prove it is mine if you want. No it probably isn't the best system in the world that is because of the speakers though. And still it hits pretty D@mn hard even with crappy speakers. If your lookin to compete in sound competions build a box. If your lookin for a cheap way to make custom looking sub enclosure that sounds pretty dang good build a plate. Thats my two cents worth.

 

Wasting your time building is exactly the best thing you can do. You're going to learn a heck of a lot more that way than getting handouts.

I've worked in car audio at the retail level for 4-5 years now. I understand it completely. I understand that if you treat people right, they will become good customers and I've had some very good relationships with customers throughout the years. But, something you don't understand (because you don't work at the retail level) is that if you spend all day with every non-paying customer that walks through the door, you'll be out of business in a month. Although I'd love to sit and chat with customers all day and give them all free stuff, I have to be much more realistic. This same type of philosophy carries over to my box building too. I've got 2 boxes in my garage right now that are 1/2 built and are supposed to be shipped by Monday. I can't get the vinal I need for one, and I can't get the carpet I need for the other. On top of that, all 3 of my cars are going through problems that need serious attention (tranny and gas leak on the IROC, door won't close on the 86, and the GTA is still in the body shop). So, the only time I've been able to post is at work where I can't spend much time, or at home where I don't have time to spend. I'm sorry that you got pissed off that I won't give you free box plans, but I'm more sorry that you can't understand why I did it.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

Jim instead of getting the plans from that box from you can I just get you to UPS the box to me? Time is money any thing I've ever seen built that need time to think it out and write it down because its not a simple design takes time and if you do it for a living=money. This is just like asking someone at a racetrack to give the secrets to their winning custom made intakes or whatever they make themself, they'll just laugh at you. If you need help go to the library and check out a book on geometry and anything you'll need on how to figure out airspace on shapes you can build with wood will be in it.

 

well sense Jim is being ever so helpful here is what I have measured out.
First the top plate measurments. rear-front length 16 inches, Width 40 inches. The hatch lock area is 13.5 inches on either side. 3 inches deep. It helps to draw a center line and go and make a mark 7 inches to either side. move up 3 inches and then mark 5 1/4 to either side. This will get around that pesky hatch hold down.
The sides now. At the base they shoulod be 13 inches wide and the back is 15 inches tall. On the front side go up 10.5 inches and mark out 16 inches on the top then make the connecting line between the 17 inch wide and the 10.5 tall line.

I think I got them all and this is the area you have to work with. This will bring the box flush to the upper rear deck. Like
the box that started this arguement.

So unlike you Jim I will actually help other people when I have the info.

------------------
Current 3rds...92 3.1 coupe and a 91 T top 305 Past camaro's 74Z28, 2 75 camaro's bretilina and a z28. Past rides HA HA too many to count, at least 20..LOL Kills to date a 3.1 firebird 2 stop lights in a row.
95 Grand Am
Serveral Honda's
a friends 91 Rustang LX(I know its a 4 but he keeps trin')

Planned mods:
Soon coming 3 inch exhaust, 1.6 rockers, High flow 'Verter, and Ignition system. Along with a complete turbo 4.3 swap planned later this year(hoping to get into the 10's..)
Current mods:
Set of Iroc sway bars front and rear..amazing differance, Air box bottom completely removed allowing my K&N to act like an open element filter.
Lower profile tires, 195/55/15 front 205/55/15 rear handles better.
And a 160 deg thermo for a V8(and yes it works just fine)

Sterio Sony CD head unit and 9 band EQ, Boston acutics 4x6 dash, Alpine 3 way 6x9 sail, California sounds active crossover, Kroiiler 600 watt amp powering the 'pines and Bostons, 600 watt Jensen powering 2 Rockord Fosgate RFZ1812 subs. And all this cost less then $575...

[This message has been edited by Camaro_hunter_d (edited June 21, 2001).]

 

Well heres something a little more clear...

The side parts. Top edge 16". Height 15" bottom Length 13" Forward edge 10.5" Draw the connecting line between the 16 top edge and the 10.5.

The top piece. 16" Tall. 40" wide. On the rearward facing edge go in 13.5" on both sides mark it(this will leave a 14" gap between the two). Now mark a line thats 3 inches forward of the rear edge. Here it helps to have a center line(20 inches from either side). On the 3 inch line mark out 10.5"s that is centered over the 14" line you marked earlier. This will take you nice and snug against the hatch hold down.


Now I was looking at Jims design on the box that started this and well the rearward facing sub is mounted on a 14" board, with the connecting boards at 13.5"...That box I would guess is 10-12" deep. So Jim for the lack of help you gave your secret on that box is out...happy now?...
But I am sure that with a little more thinking and looking at the pic I can figure it out.

As I said before I am happy to help any that needs info from me.

------------------
Current 3rds...92 3.1 coupe and a 91 T top 305 Past camaro's 74Z28, 2 75 camaro's bretilina and a z28. Past rides HA HA too many to count, at least 20..LOL Kills to date a 3.1 firebird 2 stop lights in a row.
95 Grand Am
Serveral Honda's
a friends 91 Rustang LX(I know its a 4 but he keeps trin')

Planned mods:
Soon coming 3 inch exhaust, 1.6 rockers, High flow 'Verter, and Ignition system. Along with a complete turbo 4.3 swap planned later this year(hoping to get into the 10's..)
Current mods:
Set of Iroc sway bars front and rear..amazing differance, Air box bottom completely removed allowing my K&N to act like an open element filter.
Lower profile tires, 195/55/15 front 205/55/15 rear handles better.
And a 160 deg thermo for a V8(and yes it works just fine)

Sterio Sony CD head unit and 9 band EQ, Boston acutics 4x6 dash, Alpine 3 way 6x9 sail, California sounds active crossover, Kroiiler 600 watt amp powering the 'pines and Bostons, 600 watt Jensen powering 2 Rockord Fosgate RFZ1812 subs. And all this cost less then $575...

[This message has been edited by Camaro_hunter_d (edited June 21, 2001).]

 

Thanks alot guys for turning this into a flame war. Both of you have knowalage in the field and all i was lookng for was setups NOT OPINIONS ON WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT PLATES. Thanks...and Jim I like your car AJ never seen yours...no offence. Next time don't assume people want your opinons on plates because it make an *** out of u and me....

 

See Hunter, it wasn't so hard, was it?

6spd, thanks.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

Just to put my 2cents in... when i fisrt came on this board and i asked jim a question about dimensions on his boxes, he declined me. i wasnt hurt because i figgured he sold the boxes. if he told me his dimensions he could loose a customer. because being too nice will kill your business quicker than not being nice enough. if you go and read a few (hundred) of the posts that jim has replied to, youll probably find that they either solved the problem or help in a big way. now the thing ive noticed about jim... he has strong (with reason) opinions, and he openly states them. just as you would if you were talking to a group of friends. if i tell my friend that im not gonna go measure out his trunk to see what size box he can fit, he will understand. hell i wouldnt want anyone to measure my storage area and give me thier dimensions. i would want to make my own because i trust me and my tape measure more than some guy i have never met. and jim has been an a-hole on this board before. as have i and everyone who openly posts on this board. but jim wasnt being an a-hole on this post in any way. he offerd his extremly experienced opinion, and you guys took it wrong or decided that you disaggred with it so strongly that you had to call him pompus or immature. he wasnt being either, he was being opinionated. and why shouldnt he be? with as much experience as he has and being in the field he is in, i would be just as close minded. because being open minded on that is pointless.

if you put a brand of carb on your car that sux, are you ever gonna recomend it to anyone? wouldnt you tell somebody who is considering the carb, that you have tried the carb and it sux? i would. thats what jim did and he was attacked for it.

and i sure would hate to see jim leave the boards because he is one of, if not the most, experienced people on this site. and im not being a suck up beacuse ill get nothing from jim from this post. except a flame about the a-hole comment no offense intended jim. just had to note my observations.

-edit-

and to AJ, you like the plate system in your car. who cares if other people dont? if i heard you system i would probably think it was lacking in the bass department. if you heard mine you would probably think the bass is way too loud. its just that we hear it diffrently. what do you car how somebody else hears it?
------------------
1979 L-82 Beefed up Corvette. Bright-orange with orange pearl.
end of summer: NOS!! im thinkin 250 shot. (already have a full race engine.)
god i love this car.

1985 WS6 Trans AM T-tops
bone stock sloth of an engine on its last leg(LG4 w/ 175,000mi)
T-5 tranny. thank god, i couldnt stand an LG4 auto.
Plans for an LT1,
dual exaust,
& a pounding stereo.

[This message has been edited by 85ws6TA (edited June 22, 2001).]

 

Well I had a $hit load of stuff typed then comp Fed up... lets see...


1. I see this board as a place for 3rd genners along with many others to HELP EACH OTHER OUT with questions/probs.

I had asked Jim about a box that he posted a pic of. He decided not to answer me and did it rather rudely in my opinion. But for him not to give the info is his perogitive. Me personally even if I did make boxes would have given the info...But thats just me and the person I am. I realize that I will probly never see or meet any of the people on this board so to lose a supposed sale is no biggie to me, I know there will be more sales.
I just found it a waste of time for me to have to go spend a couple hours measuring and remeasuring(to make sure) of the deminsions I have to work with(of which Jim probly had laying around). So after I went and got these measurments I went ahead and posted them for people that do not have the time to waste to do it themselves.
And in another thread I am going over the deminsions and box sizes for the particular speakers I have and what RF(Rockford Fosgate) recomends. Again cause I think, 1. Other people have these speakers and are looking for something that will have them sounding their best. 2. Giving the info to them so they do not have to waste time and money tring to do it.

And I know after this dealing with Jim any info he gives will not be ingested, I really could care less about what he has to say at this point. I realize that many a person here respect/revere him but me persoanlly think he's an a^%h*(&, and if I do have any questions I do know 2 local sterio shops that I can go to to get the info needed by the real experts.
And sorry I have spent more than 20 bucks at Sterio One, I forgot I got my Bostons their..so I have spent 110 their, but they still give advise for free....


There are no needs to make any replys to this.

 

85ws6TA, thank you. You said what I was trying to all along. And I openly admit that I'm an a__hole sometimes.

And don't worry, I'm not leaving the boards just because 1 or 2 of the members don't like me. I consider most of you guys to be friends (in an Internet sort of way) which is why I'm so open and frank to begin with.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

I've been gone a couple days and it took me a long time to read all these posts so i would feel i was doing myself an injustice if i didnt give my 2 cents...

Lets assume i drive an hour to work every day put in a full days work then drive home to continue my work..After or even between doing the job that helps me make a living I get on the internet to a site i frequent and probably spend a good amount of my little free time a night posting to people's questions and problems..Since i do this job all day and even into the night you'd think i'd be pretty good at it by now..So one night i try to help out some guy on the internet like i always do and some kid put a couple bucks in a *hitty system and its upset because i dont say I like his setup..Then goes on to sarcastically comment on how i help people and try to take the conversation anywhere but to the facts to make himself feel good (i.e. the ford quote or pompus a$$ remark).now i have to look at myself..Do i waste my little bit of free time on some ungrateful child or save my free time for myself but punish the majority of apreciative people..Different people will decide differnet things.

Bottom line is Jim is in the business first to put food on the table and second ,as he has proved by his countless hours of help here, to help less experienced people with their questions.
We're all a$$holes sometime and to say were not makes us the biggest one..But as the history of this forum will show Jim is the most helpful one here..He's never personally helped me with anything before but i'm willing to bet 80% of questions get answered first or later cleared up by Jim.So show some damn respect cause i'm sure he's got something else he could do to fill his time..If he gives you his box demension he's not just losing you as a customer he may lose the other 3000 people that just jot them down..you think the guy that invented the pet rock would tell people how to get one for free??=0) anyways...Jim, i'm sure i speak for 99% of the people when i say we apreciate all you time and effort and enjoy you around..peace

 

*hitty system, haha

 

I beg to differ. I have friends that are pissed because I had spent little time on my install and used less powerful equipment. They had spent weeks, along with tons of money. They have everything from two 8s to two 12s (in boxes made by stereo shops) w/200-400 watts, and mine has just as much, if not more bass than theirs'. Apparently I did something right on mine. I dunno what it was. I guess it's due to the time and effort I used. I can't set anything on the dash without it ending up on the floor or my lap, INCLUDING a full can of MD. And I can assure you of one thing. I've never heard a system that had too much bass. There is no such stereo, IMO. FYI, mine isn't just a "plate." It's not a full box, but it's not just a simple plate. It is sealed. Ancient Chinese Secret. Ching chong chang. HEHE!!!

Another FYI. I was never pissed, nor do I hate Jim or despise his opinion. It's just that there is NOTHING that applies to everything. Again, as somone said earlier, never assume. That's all my point was.

You, nor anyone, can assume that my stereo sounds like crap. You've never heard it. Like that box that Jim posted north of here. I would have never guessed that facing a speaker towards the rear of the storage well with a 1-2" space would sound good. But I never assumed it would sound bad. I wouldn't think that it would, but I've never tried it, nor have I heard it. So I can't say. Just like Jim said, "try it." Apparently the guy is happy with it. And I would be anxious to hear it, for sake of curiosity, if no other reason.

If I, at all, showed any anger, it was due to crude comments, not from hearing someone else's opinion. Find one area where I said that someone's system sounded like crap. I don't critsize others. It's not my nature. Sometimes you don't know what you think you know, ya know?

BTW Jim. Here's a question which could use an answer from you. I want more midbass up front. I know that 4"x6" speakers in the front dash (which I have now) don't exactly kick out much bass. Would it be better to use 6 1/2" components in kick panels, or fab a sealed enclosure to mount to the door panels. Would that give better response from the 6 1/2"s, or would a kick panel be sufficient? A kick panel would not be sealed, correct? Or could I seal it? All my bass sounds like it's coming from the rear because, it is. HEHE Thanks in advance.

AJ

 

Thanks for the support guys.

AJ, getting bass up front is the biggest challenge of ANY installer. It's sort of the "Elenor" of the car audio world.

Using speakers up front that can play more abundant amounts of low frequencies is essential. This is where the 6.5s come in. BUT, you still want them to run high pass at the same frequency that your subs are crossed over at. This is usually around 80hz, give or take. Because you only need the speakers to be flat down to 80, you've got more flexibility in terms of enclosure type. You could build an enclosure in the doors, build kicks, or build sealed kicks. I prefer kicks to doors because it gives a MUCH better image. Sealed kicks are hard to build, but in general would give better results if done right. My current kicks are not sealed, but once I eq them, I don't think it will be too bad.

Anyway. That's part A. Having speakers up front that can go down to a somewhat low frequency. Now part B. This is the hard part. First a little theory. The human ear can't localize low frequencies. A 50hz sound could come from anywhere but we can't tell where. So, why is it when somebody pounds on a bass drum, you whip your head around and can tell right where it's coming from? The bass drum is not a pure 50hz tone. It has hundreds of upper frequency harmonics along with the 50hz fundamental frequency. If you look at the response on a spectrum analyzer, you'll see content through the whole audible range. Having good sounding bass requires good mids, which is something that people don't usually realize. In the same respect, having your bass upfront means that all of the harmonics from the mids need to be clear and up front. It also means that you need to get rid of all harmonics coming from the rear. This means that you need a steep (at least 12db/octave) crossover, and you need to damp the hell out of the back of the car so that nothing rattles. When crap rattles, it resonates and produces audible noise. Even if you don't hear it, it's there, and your brain can determine localization from the harmonics it produces. Dynamat everything in sight, and make sure that all the plastic panels are damped and have rubber between them so they don't vibrate.

This will help a ton. Another, harder to fix problem is that the subs themselves produce resonances that can draw the bass to the back, and unfortunately there really isn't much you can do about it. I hate to say it, but this is where a bandpass box really shines. If you can build a good bandpass box that doesn't have any port noise (this in itself is another huge challenge), you're ahead of the game because the box itself will filter out all high frequency information that the sub produces. This is a feature you just can't get with a sealed or ported box. But, bandpass boxes are huge and need to be precisely built or they sound like *** .

So, long story short, good mids and a well damped car will help you get bass up front. But, when you crank it, crap is going to rattle no matter what you do, so consider it a victory if you can get it up front at low to moderate levels.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

[This message has been edited by Jim85IROC (edited June 24, 2001).]

 

Yes you could make a sealed enclosure for the kick panels. It would be easiest using fiberglass and resin though. This can be bought at any home improvement store. I would get a thin piece of board, 1/4 inch should work fine and cut it to the shape of the kick panel. You can make another 1/4 mounting plate for the speakers and use dowel rod to "prop" the speaker plate off the base plate. You then lightly resin the fiberglass on a flat sheet of glass or something that it can be easily slipped off of and place it over the speaker plate after it has had a few minutes to start curing. You will want to pull the resined fiberglass to the underside of the base plate. You will also want to use a couple layers, 4-5 should be good. After it has had full cure time you can sand and paint to match.

 

In order to make the back side of the sealed enclosure (Hunter didn't seem to elaborate on this part) you can lay down a ton of masking tape over the area with the kickpanel removed. Then you coat the area with a release agent, then fiberglass it. Once it sets up, you can remove it (thanks to the release agent) and pull all the tape off. This will leave the car unharmed, and you'll have a fiberglass mold of the area. You can then build the front side right onto this mold, and when you're done you'll have a sealed enclosure. I've also seen (no personal experience) that porting the enclosure into the back side or the carpet can help smooth out the frequency response in the midbass region. The porting helps vent the speaker (most of which are designed for a free air application) to give a better lower bass response, but the enclosure will still help firm up the midbass. If I can come across the link again, I'll post it.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

What if I were to buy pre-made kick panels and design/build a panel for the rear portion of it to seal the panel. Would that work? I am not exactly an artist when it comes to stuff looking pretty, or even OK for that matter. So building my own panels would be useless, I think.

And on the x-over subject, I have an Alpine x-over (2way) that is set now at around 65-70hz. It rolls the frequencies off at 12db per octave. IMO, that feq. range is too high for subs period. Unfortunately, that is the only way for me to get any type of midbass, without the subs being OVERLY dominate. If I turn up the x-over to 100hz or so, then it sounds good, except like you said, then ALL the bass is coming from them. I love great imaging and the sound that a good stereo makes. I would like mine to sound like I have no subs. Although, that is really everyone's goal. You know, to give the illusion that all the deep, powerful bass is coming from the front. I've only had one car do that well, and it was a Celebrity. (NO LAUGHING) No power windows, so I was able to mount 6 1/2" midrange RFs in the doors with an enclosure behind them. NOBODY even knew I had sub, until I turned it off. But even then it was hard to tell. THAT is what subs are supposed to do, correct? Compliment, not dominate.

So are you saying that I should do the kick panels, then roll off the freq. at 50hz (maybe a little higher, depending on my mood), then hope that it sounds good, or are you pretty sure it will? And don't our cars have a natural cabin gain around 40hz? I've read it's around a 14db gain. Is that right? I guess that could be another reason that all the bass is coming from the rear with my x-over set at 65-70hz.

 

Most of my experience has shown the cabin gain to peak at about 50hz, but it's a pretty wide range.

In terms of a crossover frequency, that's something you'll have to experiment with. In my car, I found the best results with 80hz, but I haven't tried fooling with it since going to the kick panels. I may find that it works out better at 60hz now. That's where fooling around comes in.

I've seen a lot of installers take Q-forms kick panels and build a fiberglass backing to them with good results. For the money, I'd rather use DJSexay's kick panels and either see if he'll make a back for you, or try it yourself. In either case, I think his look a lot better than the Q-logic pieces, and they appear to be of higher quality too. They also cost less. I haven't had the good fortune of hearing them myself, but others here seem to be happy with them.

------------------
The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

 

Cool. Thanks. You just told me what I wanted to hear. I have been thinking of the ones that DJSexay's makes. They look good, better than the Q-Logic ones no doubt. Now just to figure out which 6 1/2" components to buy, that I can afford anyway.

Thanks again.

AJ

 

Jim what do you charge to build me a box like you shomw in this post to fit a 89 GTA?

 

I hope you guys are all done arguing now...but I'll throw in a few of my own opinions if you don't mind:

About subwoofer plates: One thing I've noticed is that most regular car speakers...from 3 1/2s up to 6x9s are nearly always designed for a free-air application. But suddenly, when you take a speaker, make it 8" or larger and call it a subwoofer...all the companies who make them design them to be in enclosures. There are very, very few enclosureless subwoofers out there, and they are usually the lower end models.

Furthermore, a free-air sub would be best suited to the rear deck of a large sedan, where everything is already pretty well sealed. As Jim said, it's hard to achieve a good seal when installing a plate in our cars.

However, if you have a plate and you like it, go ahead and keep it. And as AJ said near the beginning of this post, it's the innovators out there who really keep things interesting. If you have a new idea, and you have the time and/or money to gamble and experiment with it, go ahead and do so...your findings just might improve the world.

About giving out box dimesions, free advice, et cetera:

When Jim refused to release his box dimesions, he probably should have said why. On the other hand, we all know that if you try to sell stuff in this forum, your post may get deleted. He probably just didn't want to sound like a salesman.

If you look in magazines like Southern Living, Better Homes and Gardens...you will see house plans for sale. You can buy plans to build an entire house for about $30, and woodshed plans for like $10. Following that logic, I'd value Jim's box dimensions at about $3.00, and that's only if they include every measurement, what angle to set your saw at, and so forth. I'm sure that when Jim makes a profit from one of his boxes, it's because of his audio knowledge and his woodworking skills...not because he is handy with a tape measure.

When you talk about free advice, it's all about context...where and when you ask for the advice. On this forum, I'll tell you guys everything I know.

I also work for Best Buy, as Mobile Electronics Installation Supervisor. Even though I work for a major corporation, it's my shop and I run my business. I'm bonused on how profitable the shop is, and I also have to answer to my superiors if we're not making enough money. We charge for our installation services because we want to make a profit.

When a customer comes to me and plans to do his own installation, I will happily help him choose which equipment fits his car, and supply him with whatever parts he needs to perform the installation. But it's not my job to tell some guy how to take his car apart, and I find it offensive that he should even ask.

Many times, I've actually had customers ask me "So, is this really easy to do?" I mean, what kind of question is that? They might as well say "Well, you guys all look like a bunch of idiots, so I'll bet anyone can install this stuff."

When your toilet breaks, and you want to fix it yourself...do you call the plumber and ask him to tell you how to do it? No, you go over to Home Depot, you buy the new toilet, and you buy the book that tells you how to install it. Or, you find a friend who can help you.

And look further down in the post. Jim wrote probably ten paragraphs, all about how to achieve up-front bass. He certainly isn't asking for any money for that advice, is he?

Now, let's all get along again.