My current setup is in my signature. Here is what my future setup is sorta outlined at now.

Carb: 750cfm Edelbrock electric choke?

Intake: RPM Air gap intake manifold for 87+ heads

Regulator: Mallory 3 port.

Coil: Hypertech?


Eventually I would like to get the MSD-6AL to help limit my revs and help out my ignition.

My Goal is for a street daily driven low 13 second car. Help me get there.

Set up now ------v

 

You'd be faster with a 650 DP.

What distributor?

Stock L98 cam? Consider LT4 Hot Cam. You already have the 1.6 rockers, apparently.

More stall would make it more likely to hit those low-13's.

 

How come I would go faster with 650 DP?

I was thinking/ wondering if the TPI distributor would work with the external coil? 88 style since I will be most likely be using the same engine harness.

The hot cam I hear is a good choice, that or ZZ4 but I would have to get new springs I am sure to cover that lift.

Yeah I bought the 2400k stall due to TPI but now that is over I will probably upgrade that after the other stuff. Atleast it is an upgrade over stock.

 

For reference, my 396 picked up 2 tenths going from a Holley 750 VS to 650 DP. VS and Edelbrock Performer are demand-based secondaries. Mechanical secondaries, as long as you have the traction for it, will out-run demand-based in the 1/4 - unless you really over-carb.

You need a vacuum/mechanical advance distributor. Or, a way to "fool" the stock ignition & ECM into thinking all of the sensors are there and providing useful information.

The ZZ4 is a good street cam. I'm considering the Hot Cam myself, along with an RPM intake.

I don't believe the RPM intake is available in '87-up bolt pattern. You just need to do the mount bolt hole mods to the "standard" intake.

 

I'd recommend a replacement HEI vacuum advance distributor. It will generally be a less expensive unit than the computer controlled small cap and the advance curve can be tuned without rigging sensors and doing the laptop thing. Simpler, less expensive and easier to troubleshoot when somethings awry.

Suck it up and get the new springs, you only spent $250 on paint.

Edelbrock carbs are icky.

 

Oh, and if it was me and I wanted to save money, I'd hit the JY and find a decent mechanical q-jet and HEI. Get it running good and upgrade down the road.

 

I looked over your build and started to ask, "Why aren't you low-13's already?" Then I looked closer. The issue is the heads, in my opinion.

L98 heads are "torque" heads. 163 cc runners, 1.94"/1.50" valves, and 58 or 64 cc chambers. Made for street grunt, not high-end horses.

And here's something to think about. I think the day is gonna come when the Feds make emissions laws nationwide. That means everybody who has scrapped their fuel injection for carbs, and have scrapped their cats, is gonna be spending bucks or parking their cars.

EFI is more dependable than a carb. Yeah, harder to tune, but once tuned it won't wear, get plugged, stick a choke, etc., etc. And it's been proven that an aftermarket Catco or Random Technologies cat increases torque and horses over straight pipes.

Ignition upgrades are lowest bang for your buck. An MSD-6AL will dent your wallet to the tune of 240 bucks, and all you'll get for it is 4 or 5 horses and another piece to troubleshoot if you lose spark.

Stick with EFI and upgrade your heads, then tune your EFI for your build. You should make upper 12's, easy. Traction will be your biggest acceleration problem once you upgrade the heads. (I did it with a 305 before I upgraded to a 406.)

 

My TPI is on ebay now, and besides when the feds decide about the emissions all of our cars will be surely grandfathered by the time someone enforces it that crazy.

The MSD-6AL along with things like a Oh let's say a MSD coil is not for horsepower. I want MSD things for reliability and I want the 6AL for the rev control so I do not do stupid things if I am not paying attention. I do not care if it took away 5 hp, better than a thrown rod.

This is my biggest challenge. Deciding on a 650 DP or a Rochester carb with the ECM.

I need to get my ducks in a row, but time is running out I must decide soon.

 

I was going to say, this isn't a bad route to take. I have about $100 tied up in carb and distributor. I'm going to get a better distributor soon, or at least a hotter coil, I think the 25yr old coil and module might have seen better days by now.

A mech (non ccc) q-jet is nice in the fact that it's dirt cheap, and very modify-able. Other then that, i'd look at a Holley double pumper. Just pick the intake manifold based on square bore, or spreadbore. FWIW - the performer RPM air gap isn't available in a spreadbore bolt pattern, so you'd need an adapter = more hood height needed. I'm using the RPM spreadbore (non air gap), so it clears my power bulge.

 

Well I am torn between the two setups

#1 (outlined by matt mw66nova)

650 DP Holley (w/divorced choke I live in a warm climate)
Holley Street intake manifold 300-36 (idle-7500rpms)
Vacuum Distributor (I have one already laying around that is new)
MSD-6AL

#2 (Vader hinted this setup)

600+ Q-jet CC carb
CC distributor
ECM
Engine harness
Intake manifold


#2 seems to be the most expensive route... However, I am looking for a daily driver with great performance. I have been researching the Q-jet and I am impressed, but I would have to make some serious wiring changes for it because I am keeping my serp setup and dual fans and my VSS.

So #1 may be more practical?

My TPI setup on ebay has 8 watchers and I asked for a trade and I have alot of messages. So I have to go through all of them and find the right setup.

Hood clearance doesn't mean anything to me. I took a stock firebird hood. Cut a hole 15" wide, weather stripped it and then riveted a 4" cowl. So I will probably run a 4" cleaner so it sticks out of the hood and into the cowl more.

 

For number 2 you should already have the cc-dist and as a bonus you hopefully have the electronic spark control module and knock sensor for the 5.7 (cost me around $100 to upgrade from my LG4). Primary fan will still run from the temp switch, but yeah, you'd have to find an alternate means of controlling the secondary. Simply wiring them together would likely result in too many start amps. So you'd need the ccc-qjet, manifold, vac sensor, baro sensor, ecm and some wiring pieces/parts. I'd think you could use most of your existing harness.

I picked up a used ccc-qjet at Brocks for $20 once, but once you start picking pieces that he has to hunt for it starts adding up...

Kboehringer did a cross-fire to ccc-qjet swap a while back. Think he's in GA too.

 

Holley says it's 1500-7200 RPMs.
http://www.holley.com/300-36.asp

 

Good call.

I had been staring at countless manifolds and carbs for hours on end. My brain and eyes are fried.

 

Anyone know what size fittings I need for the rubber/ hard fuel line and return line in the engine bay?

I am looking to AN line it all I was not sure what size the female end was.

 

3/8" for the supply, 5/16" for the return.

 

 

If you are getting an msd box why use a vacume distributor? Just get a msd Distributor.

 

Even if he got an MSD distributor he'd still want vacuum advance on it.

 

Okay I ended my Ebay auction and this is the setup I ended up with. Someone I have been talking to on the phone for a couple hours and he made me a good offer. So I think.

He gave me a choice of 3 carbs to choose from.
600 Holley -Vac Sec
600 Edelbrock -Vac Sec
750 Edelbrock -Mech sec

I went with the 600 Holley. Tomorrow he said he will go to the store get a rebuild kit and freshly rebuilt this carb for me tomorrow.

So we got to talking about the Rochester Q Jet. He had a spare 750 Non CC and said I could just Have it. So score on that, I will rebuild that in my spare time and use it to replace the holley later after I get a more agressive cam.

So Tally so far is

Holley 600
Rochester Q-Jet 750 Non-CM
Edelbrock RPM intake ( I have to slot the middle bolts but ohwell )
14" Air Cleaner
Accel Super coil new in box
Detent Cable Brackets

He is also tossing in $60 for shipping my TPI stuff out.

All I need new is a 3 port AFPR and I am golden.

I know the 650 DP is pretty great, but from my research the Q-Jet is badass when properly done right and he just tossed it in the deal.

So goodbye TPI and hello Carburetor

 

MSD pro billet HEI 8365 has a built in rev limiter, plus the nicest mechanical advance assembly i've ever seen. since you want a rev limiter and if u still need a dizzy, u can spend a little more and get everything in one package.

what detent brackets you using?

I love my 650DP, but i shoulda just bought one brand new than rebuilding someone elses shelf queen. easy way to complicate things.

 

Call him back and have him do the 750 instead.

I was only using the 650 DP for comparison to demand-type secondaries. The DP is the key. 750 isn't too big for your combo.

You need TV cable brackets, not detent cable brackets. TH700's don't have a detent cable (minor, but important point).

 

That is what I meant, TV cable brackets.

I called him back and asked for the Edelbrock 750. He said no problem. He just has to pick up a rebuild kit for that instead of the holley he was going to rebuild for me. So right on.

If I remember correctly five7kid I think you were a big edelbrock carb fan compared to the holleys.

Alot of people tell me that I am silly for getting rid of TPI for a carb oh well.

 

Whoa, I read that wrong! I saw "750 mechanical secondaries" and assumed Holley.

There is no such thing as an Edelbrock with mechanical secondaries. The throttle blades are opened mechanically, but the air flow is controlled by a weighted air flap above the throttle blades.

I'm anything but an Edelbrock fan.

But, the 750 Edelbrock will feed the engine better than a 600 Holley VS. You have slightly more opening tunability with the Holley VS, but between those two, I'd go with the larger Edelbrock.

I'd still prefer a Holley 650 or 750 double pumper (the "real" mechanical secondary carb) over either.

 

Everyone and their mom said the 650 DP or a Rochester. I am getting the Rochester too so I get to play with stuff like that.

Gee, thanks for advice lol I was relying on your many years of car wisdom that is why I did not question you.

It's all good. Thanks for the help though seriously.

Old guys rock. (just messin' with you)

Anyways, I am having a really tough time finding a 3 port reg for my carb set up. I am guessing mallory is my only choice that is less than $80.

I want to do it right and I know you need a return style but remind me again what happens if you do not use a return style and cap the return line?

 

Instead of recirculating back to the tank to cool, fuel sits in the lines and heats up.

If you're using a stock in-tank electric pump with a non-return regulator, it'll probably be not long for the world either. They don't like being deadheaded.

 

Here is an update on my engine and where it is at,







It is not finished yet. Not firing well. I have to finish up with some a wiring. Get rid of all the wires I do not need, and tidy up a bit. Finish with the rest of the semi black paint in the bay. The MSD stuff is all wired up. Has a quick disconnect and I made a custom bracket for the front of the engine. I am sure someone will be all crazy and say it will get too hot but I am not concerned. It has bushings so it is not touching metal and two dual fans that run at all times. On top of that I wired up a temp sensor beside it that you would get at walmart that lets me know what the air temp is digitally from the driver seat.

 

I've never seen the box mounted there. I don't think it'll work due to the vibration. It'll "scramble it's brains" so to speak, as well as the heat will be bad. I've never used one, so don't trust my opinion last on that. Maybe some else can chime in.

oh, I thought you were going to run a q-jet, and then I was going to say "that's not a q-jet?!". Now that i've read this thread I understand.

Weird distributor setup - no vac advance? Am I missing something here?

 

I cracked open the MSD-6AL because it was previously used. I cleaned the circuitry and added a few modifications and siliconed certain areas. Electronics is what I do for a living. There are no moving parts in the circuitry so vibration will not affect it that much. Heat is the biggest issue, I am not concerned though. If for some reason it fails I have access to new internals without any cost to me.

I mounted it there because I wanted to do something no one else has. Every new idea is a bad idea in someones' eyes. Plus I have no firewall space.

I will eventually use the rochester but this is my setup to get me started. The rochester I have will be rebuilt from the ground up so I get to polish up on carb skills.

The hard lines to the chassis I cannot figure out. Apeiron stated it was 3/8 and 5/16th I ordered them but they still leaked like hell, so I had to use rubber hose for the return and such.

Anyone know exactly what fittings (part number too) of the two fittings I need to convert the two male ends to male -6AN?

Right now I am trying to get the car going. The MSD distributor cap I have is confusing. I cannot figure out where the number one terminal is. There really is no indications. So I have been guessing lol. Eventually I will get it I guess.

Since my power buldge is gone I had to relocated my gauges that were in the cowl. I bought a dual pillar from summit and I am disappointed. It does not fit very well and the top piece for the T-Tops is not even there, even though it said T-Tops.

My aircleaner does not even remotely fit so I will try and buy some sort of adapter. or something.

The distributor Sonix is supposively magnectically controlled. If you open the cap, there is a big magnetic piece in the inner wall, and below the rotor is an iron star that has 8 points. There is no springs or nothing. Very interesting.

 

You ordered what that leaked like hell?

The number 1 terminal is whichever terminal the rotor is pointed to when the number one cylinder is at TDC firing.

You need a different distributor, that one has no advance.

 

One 3/8's fitting and 5/16th apparently there are different pitches. I need a 20 but recieved a 16.


I still am clueless on which terminal is which.


Why do I need a different distributor? I am still lost as hell on everyone's distributor comments. I understand the theory on vacuum dizzys but exactly what is wrong a magnetic one? Five7 and I spoke about mechanical ones with the pros and cons, so what is the deal with the Magnetical ones?

 

"Magnetic" refers to the triggering mechanism, it has nothing to do with the advance. Stock HEI distributors are magnetically triggered, for what it's worth. You need a distributor with centrifugal and vacuum advance.

What "fittings" are you talking about on the fuel lines?

 

What model distributor is that? Looks like a stock style replacement designed to work with the ECM for advance. Does it have the connector for the EST wiring?

Running BOTH fans continuously? Hope that's temporary. At least run one of them through the temp sender/relay...all of the electrics should be in place. Those things can pull some amps.

The dist doesn't care which terminal the number one is connected to. As long as any vital distributor connections are generally where they need to be, ie vacuum can and tach connection, install it and with #1 at TDC, place the number one wire on the terminal the rotor's pointing to.

Once it's set, you could get crazy and spin it 45 degrees (360/8) and move every wire over one.

 

Hmm... The distributor only has two wires that directly plug into my MSD 6-AL. What would be beneficial of a car with no advance? Magnetic trigger. You cannot use the distributor unless you have an MSD-6 series or 7 series igntion box.

I would hate to sell it but If I have no choice this will really set me back.

If I sell it I would have to get rid of :
The Distributor with BRAND new cap,
MSD 8.5 wires (have special sockets for the cap)
Blaster coil
Distributor harness.

I wouldn't even know what to ask for money wise.

What a bummer.

Well I have a vacuum advance distributor but I need a cap and coil.
What brand coil is everyone running with now? Hypertech? Accel?

 

It's a race-style distributor with mechanical advance only.

I'm using an Accel Supercoil on the Camaro and MSD in-cap HEI on the '57.

nelapse, I thought I explained what magnetic pick-up, mechanical advance and vacuum advance all meant.

 

You explained very well on the mechanical and vacuum advance. You did not explain magnetic trigger or pick up. It seems if this distributor is mechanical how would you adjust the springs and such? I have already invested so much money in the system it would really suck to have to get rid of it.

At the worst you told me I would lose 1-2 MPG, and mechanical would be more benficial for racing applications, but the vacuum advance would be great for cruising speeds and rpms.

So if this is indeed just a mechanical deal then I am not seeing a huge problem from what you explained to me.

 

You can pull the instruction manual for your distributor off of the MSD site.

With your timing light are you reading any advance now?

 

In order to fire the spark at the right time, the distributor has to produce a trigger signal when the rotor is in the proper position. This can be done mechanically (like in an old breaker-points distributor), or magnetically with a magneto, but on electronic ignitions is usually done with a magnetic reluctor and pickup coil (like most stock HEI), magnetic hall-effect sensor, or optically.

Apart from the breaker-points and magneto systems, none of these signals can fire the coil directly. Additional electronic circuitry is required. A stock HEI distributor has the necessary electronics in the module under the cap. So do aftermarket "ready-to-run" distributors. External ignition boxes like the MSD 6 series also have the necessary electronics to read the trigger signal, so to save money and avoid having redundant electronics in the distributor, MSD and other manufacturers make "trigger-only" distributors like the one you have that must be used with an ignition box.

None of this triggering stuff has anything to do with timing advance, though.

To make the best power, the mixture in the combustion chamber should be fully burned by the time the crank is slightly past TDC. Any earlier than this, and the piston is fighting the expanding exhaust gasses on the compression stroke, causing power loss and potential damage. Any later, and the flame front is "chasing" the piston down on the power stroke and power is lost again.

Since it takes time for the flame to propagate through the cylinder, the ignition has to fire slightly before the piston reaches TDC. The position of the crank in degrees when the cylinder is fired is the advance.

The amount of advance needed changes at different times. On a computer-controlled ignition, the computer can control the amount of advance. Otherwise, mechanisms in the distributor are needed.

As the speed of the engine increases, the piston moves faster relative to the burning of the mixture, so the ignition needs more advance in order to give the flame time to travel across the cylinder before the piston has gone too far. This is only true up to a point, though. At high speeds the turbulence in the chamber promotes faster burning, so additional timing isn't needed past somewhere around 3000 RPM.

Most distributors use a weight-and-spring mechanism to measure the engine speed. As the rotor turns faster, the centrifugal force pulls the weights outwards against the springs, and this advances the timing. This is the "centrifugal" or "mechanical" advance.

Under light load with the throttle closed, such as during cruising, the mixture in the combustion chamber is thin and burns more slowly. For best fuel economy and to avoid fouling the plugs, the engine needs more advance under these conditions. Manifold vacuum is used to measure the engine load, and under high vacuum, additional timing is added. This is the "vacuum" advance.

This applies mainly to street cars, though. In a drag racing application, the engine doesn't cruise. It's either at WOT running under full load, or it's idling. It might not ever be loaded below 3000 RPM, so there's no need for it to have a complicated varying-advance mechanism in it, it can just have a distributor with fixed timing. That's the kind you've got.

 

It was in a PM.

http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/85561...1_frm25672.pdf You adjust the springs and such by putting in different ones.

My experience with a mechanical-only vs. mechanical/vacuum was around 2 mpg. That was on an engine that didn't have fuel economy as one of its build criteria. Throttle response is also improved with a mechanical/vacuum set-up.

 

Five7 you are right it was in PM's 2 in fact, I have read it many times but I cannot seem to grasp magnetic deal in there.

apeiron- I understand what you are saying, and I would like to thank you for taking the time to explain it more clearly. The problem I have is Time and money.

I have everything already wired up and there. So buy removing the distributor I lose the coil, cap, wires, etc. So I lost money even if I sell it.

Second, I have to buy a new coil and cap for the vac advance distributor.

Third, I would have to rewire the MSD-6AL to work with the vac distributor. I will not get rid of the MSD-6AL because of the revlimiter.

Fourth, this will farther prolong the awakening of my car that has been down for some time.

This is really something to think about.

I think I still have the case for the coil, and coil bracket. I will take it back to autozone and pretend I bought it there and I forgot the reciept. Get store credit and buy a new cap and accel coil.

Such a headache lol.

 

If your existing vac advance dist is an HEI you can pick up the coil and cap while at Autozone for around $30-40. If it's not coil-in-cap you can probably reuse your blaster coil. You could wire up your existing separate coil to the coil-in-cap type but it would certainly look boogered.

You may even be able to use your HEI dist to trigger the MSD box instead of the built in module. Not sure there'd be any benefit other than maybe not having to replace a bad/missing module if that were the case.

Got your carb bracket and linkage? Going to use the stock type?

 

All you have to do is change the distributor.

You can use the coil with any external-coil distributor. A new distributor will come with a new cap. Even for the wires, if the new distributor doesn't have the same terminals, you can pick up new terminals and boots for a couple dollars and crimp them on yourself.

If you pick the right distributor, you won't even have to rewire the MSD.

 

I already have a distributor with a few miles on them. It is an in-cap coil style. So I will buy new terminals and crimp them on. New coil and cap.

Anyone want an MSD dizzy?

 

There's still one more option to reuse your coil. You can get an adapter for the stock internal-coil cap that has a coil terminal on it for use with an external coil. MSD 8401, or similar.

 

That's the one I remember. Reminds me of the guys that thought they were going to gain 20+ HP by running a hotter remote mount after market coil on their HEI systems. This was a few years back mind you. Probably why it carries that boogered connotation for me. It would be fine for you, though. That and 'the pond out back'.